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Post by General Mahad on Aug 25, 2016 17:33:38 GMT
The title says it. In the E3 video showing off Andromeda, a wheeled vehicle made its appearance. But why? I thought after about 500 years that technology would have moved away from the wheel and more towards hover crafts (you know, kind of like in Mass Effect 2 when we got the hover vehicle dlc). Just because we are "500" years in the future doesn't mean the oldest and most practical of human technological application will go extinct. Also having everything as hovercrafts or levitating is a massive waste of resources when you can easily have something with driveshaft, axles and wheels for the smallest fraction of the former's price.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Aug 25, 2016 18:09:02 GMT
But the Mako IS an IFV, that said, the original purpose is to be the mobile cover for ground troops, transport them, make fire support and possible, hunting tanks... (you can't support well the troops if you are flying and stuff)
It's a light ass vehicle
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Post by Ahriman on Aug 25, 2016 18:11:32 GMT
Well, I'm no expert, but the difference would be the same principle that present day hovercraft work with: close to the ground, a rotor creates an "air cushion" that can keep a vehicle floating right above ground but which would dissipate if the rotor moved upwards. You mean this? It has nothing to do with this Hammerhead has no air cushion to begin with.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 25, 2016 18:17:36 GMT
I have honestly no idea how the Hammerhead works, but I was thinking a rotor based hover vehicle, yes. Given the blue light under whatever it is that keeps the Hammerhead afloat, it's likely not a rotor, so I think this is where I give you a nod and rest my case. Now I kinda feel that I wasted your time by overthinking things a bit. It's Mass Effect, after all... where guns shave off stuff from a dense block of matter and micro-fabricate cryo rounds.
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 25, 2016 19:09:18 GMT
We don't know enough about the associated technology to draw any meaningful conclusions here.
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Post by Adhin on Aug 25, 2016 22:36:01 GMT
Personally I'd take wheels over a hovercraft. Hovercraft are one of those cool sounding things that isn't as practical as you'd want it to be. By there nature they're not the most stable thing. Even using thrusters so the lack of air content not being an issue your still looking at being floaty. Which means you generally can't sit still as easily as you'd like. Stopping becomes a whole new issue which generally requires reverse thrusters or turning around.
Purely land vehicle has it's own issues for sure. But if your talking about something that's coming out of a full on ship like the Tempest? I mean a chasm is gonna stop both vehicles, so you'd get back in the ship and fly somewhere else. Water's the biggest issue but the Mako could easily be amphibious and just go boat on that shit. Add not as garbage thrusters and it's pretty well suited for most things that's ultimately more stable then a hovercraft would be.
That's all mostly just personal preferences though. As much as I like the idea of hovercrafts, they're that whole master of none thing going for em. Wheels are just funner to drive in my opinion.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 25, 2016 23:41:50 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>
By hovercraft I mean like those in the SW universe. They have some anti-grav tech. Much better than wheels.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2016 0:05:39 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> I'm a big fan of hover tech. What makes wheels more reliable? Wheel tech has more moving parts that hover.... Indeed, hoverbikes, even better
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Post by Adhin on Aug 26, 2016 1:04:36 GMT
Anti-Gravity is a weird concept that has no basis in current science for ME to even have something to go off of. The whole idea of Mass Effect was going off some element we think exists but don't know how it works and BioWare made up there own shit for that. They found a hook and just made there own thing from it which is snazzy.
Anyway, point is, that shit isn't in Mass Effect. They have faking mass reduction and increasing. So they can make something 'function' like it has less mass or more mass (while not literally changing it) which, can increase, or reduce the amount of gravity said object has. But they can't somehow nullify the gravity of a planet directly.
So say you have a hovercraft and your just like 'ok, make it so light it floats' - that requires air or some kind of gas to float on, wouldn't work on a no-atmosphere planet/moon. So you'd need thrusters, which they already use and in either case your hover/floating which doesn't have that same instant stop air-stopping you get in Star Wars.
Star Wars makes no fucking sense in that regard. Reminds me of the whole alien reports of saucers just going at 'incredible speeds' then abruptly stopping in air. That kinda thing makes absolutely no sense from a physics stand point. Helicopters have to literally tip up to slow/stop and it's not abrupt like that.
I'm very curious now how the hell all those flying cars work. You know the ones we see through out the game. The Kodiak at least had a bunch of thrusters that spun around (and tilted the whole vehicle when they had to slow/stop) for thrusting and landing. Pretty sure they make the whole vehicle super light via mass effect fields too.
Ahh whatever, I'm just looking forward to actually driving OUT of our ship the Tempest this time. Not sure if you guys noticed that in all the trailers over the years. But in the most recent one they showed it multiple times - we literally drive outa the thing. All the talk of no loading screens has me wonder if we pick a destination, watch via any windows then walk down to the cargo bay and hit up the vehicle to get out. That'll be pretty awesome if that ends up being the case.
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Post by xassantex on Aug 26, 2016 4:23:14 GMT
..so the Andromedans see Ryder arrive in ar Mako thinking " Omg, how quaint"
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Post by bshep on Aug 26, 2016 5:02:38 GMT
Hovercraft don't work well on airless planets. I don't see why not. With an Eezo core you can essentially say "fuck gravity", and since in Sci-fi they usually use thrusters rather than propellers for hovering, the lack of air will have little impact. Then it would be a ship instead of a land vehicle. More like the Kodiack.
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Post by Arcian on Aug 26, 2016 5:36:16 GMT
The title says it. In the E3 video showing off Andromeda, a wheeled vehicle made its appearance. But why? I thought after about 500 years that technology would have moved away from the wheel and more towards hover crafts (you know, kind of like in Mass Effect 2 when we got the hover vehicle dlc). For the same reason people are still walking around on their feet instead of jetpacking around everywhere.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 26, 2016 12:57:34 GMT
I can still see wheels being practical, to be honest. The higher tech something is, the easier it is to break it. Wheels are going to be much more reliable than hover tech, especially for a vehicle out on the frontier. Plus, the Mako has no time for your physics anyway. It's not like terrain has ever stopped it(which would be the main benefit of using hover tech is ignoring terrain). I don't know, having nearly all the military equipment reliant on EZO which allows them to be extremely effective but not the armored vehicles makes little sense IMO. I've never liked the MAKO, it has always stood out like a sore thumb due to its low tech and unimaginative design, I'd greatly appreciate a replacement.
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Post by Adhin on Aug 26, 2016 15:11:10 GMT
I can give you one good reason for a wheel vehicle vs a hover vehicle when it comes to ground military troops. Same reason we still make tanks and tank like vehicles in the realsies. Mobile armor. See a big ass tank makes a GREAT wall for people on foot. Large armored vehicles like an APC (like the Mako) also make a great wall.
Imagine being in the military in a ground war (cause blasting from space is a big no no for that planet) and you have this huge vehicle rolling with you providing literal cover. That's great! That's been a thing since WW2 (hell WW1 to some extent) for us and we still use cause it works, works really well. Now take that Tank or APC and make it hover 5 feet off the ground. All of a sudden it sucks at it's job. It's no longer providing actual cover and it's kicking up a hell of a dust storm making it difficult for you, the ground troop, to see wtf is going on.
If it was Star Wars style (which makes no sense) and could float only say, 1 foot off the ground with out creating a felt force (aka, no jet engines for lift) then It'd work just fine but that's fairy land magic sci-fi stuff that likes wildly ignoring physics instead of just playing with them.
Going off that, I could see why the Mako exists in general. I could also see how a maybe more exploratory non-heavy combat oriented expedition might have some Mako's re-worked or re-engineered to be gunless? You know, take an existing vehicle that serves some military purpose and re-purpose some (or at least some of the plans) to make something else similar instead of having to come up with all new plans/vehicles. It's a pretty common concept.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 26, 2016 16:25:00 GMT
I was thinking of a classic hovercraft. Isn't eezo consumed when it's producing a mass effect? What if there is no eezo handy in Andromeda? I don't remember the Lore saying anything about Eezo being "consumed" while generating dark energy. Eezo core is something you install in a ship once. (unless something happens to it, but in this case you probably won't even have a ship to fix...) I vaguely remember something about Eezo decaying after a few centuries, but I'm not sure about that. As for Eezo being rare in Andromeda - I suppose it's possible, but the way it is described in the Lore, Eezo is a by-product of certain cosmic events, and a part of the life cycle of certain stars that produce it in large quantities when they die (or reach a certain stage). I guess we'll know for sure when we get there, but I doubt Bioware would mess with their unique brand of plobontium and how intrinsic it is to technology, not to mention that this is what gave birth to the name of the franchise no less... Ya, would be kinda weird if there was no mass effect in a mass effect game. Which either means: a) Hovercraft DLC Since eezo is still a rare commodity, you go with something more easily replacable for standard equipment.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 26, 2016 17:26:59 GMT
Anti-Gravity is a weird concept that has no basis in current science for ME to even have something to go off of. Snip Ahh whatever, I'm just looking forward to actually driving OUT of our ship the Tempest this time. Not sure if you guys noticed that in all the trailers over the years. But in the most recent one they showed it multiple times - we literally drive outa the thing. All the talk of no loading screens has me wonder if we pick a destination, watch via any windows then walk down to the cargo bay and hit up the vehicle to get out. That'll be pretty awesome if that ends up being the case. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> I expect some canon text in the prequel novel which is written (supposedly) to explain things and answer the fans questions. Bio would be smart to introduce new and old tech such as the one for flying cars. And, if we have flying cars in the old ME we can have flying tanks or flying exploration vehicles in Andromeda. Imo, the Mako was chosen as fan service. Expect a load screen cinematic when navigating the tempest down to earth, followed by another one going from 0 to 60mph in 2.0 seconds from the cargo bay.... which will be repetitive enough to become boring. Thank god they decided to remove the silly idea of air dropping the Mako. Loading screens are here to stay. Larger texture files make load screens inevitable. If Bio is smart they will cleverly hide that fact by preloading the file(s) in the background as you approach a transition point... if the hardware is there (memory). So, with the proper hardware and some programming ingenuity, the transition time can be either eliminated or reduced. We will see, what Bio chose to do, when we get the game.
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Post by Adhin on Aug 26, 2016 19:25:08 GMT
Yeah the whole Kodiak thing would make a lot of sense. A flying shuttle for exploration instead of using the Tempest makes sense just in general. Hell that's pretty common for sci-fi shows with spaceships. I think Mako is more then fan service though. Besides from a gameplay perspective it gives an entire different view of things when your driving vs flying.
Also allows for more visually interesting um, vehicle blocking to force you out on foot for areas. From a game play perspective, I just think it makes a lot more sense. You could, for instance, completely not realize you just flew over a cave and wouldn't feel prompted to get out on foot to see it.
Anyway as far as loading, yeah. Streaming tech for loading as things go can do wonder but I expect the loading screens to be hidden instead of non-existent, I'm not crazy. Very curious how they intend to hide them. Cause a canned video (thats obviously video not an in game cutscene) tends to be an obvious 'well theres your loading screen'.
I just hope we can walk around in hyper space instead of watching an obvious animated load screen this time. That'd be pretty darn neat.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Aug 26, 2016 21:48:39 GMT
We can always use Ryncol to fuel the Mako (or the Tempest)...
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 26, 2016 22:20:04 GMT
I can still see wheels being practical, to be honest. The higher tech something is, the easier it is to break it. Wheels are going to be much more reliable than hover tech, especially for a vehicle out on the frontier. Plus, the Mako has no time for your physics anyway. It's not like terrain has ever stopped it(which would be the main benefit of using hover tech is ignoring terrain). I don't know, having nearly all the military equipment reliant on EZO which allows them to be extremely effective but not the armored vehicles makes little sense IMO. I've never liked the MAKO, it has always stood out like a sore thumb due to its low tech and unimaginative design, I'd greatly appreciate a replacement. It could still run on Eezo, just without using hover tech. I was mostly thinking about the actual hover tech part itself. It seems to me that it'd be easier to disable a vehicle using hover tech than one using 6 wheels, and more maintenance for the hover vehicle as well. Though they also don't get much into how solid the lore is behind the only two vehicles we've used. The fact that the Hammerhead is really fragile might either be just a gameplay mechanic or not something that's specific to using the hover tech.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 26, 2016 22:35:28 GMT
I don't know, having nearly all the military equipment reliant on EZO which allows them to be extremely effective but not the armored vehicles makes little sense IMO. I've never liked the MAKO, it has always stood out like a sore thumb due to its low tech and unimaginative design, I'd greatly appreciate a replacement. It could still run on Eezo, just without using hover tech. I was mostly thinking about the actual hover tech part itself. It seems to me that it'd be easier to disable a vehicle using hover tech than one using 6 wheels, and more maintenance for the hover vehicle as well. Though they also don't get much into how solid the lore is behind the only two vehicles we've used. The fact that the Hammerhead is really fragile might either be just a gameplay mechanic or not something that's specific to using the hover tech. Well, wheeled vehicles are actually extremely complex, too. For something like the MAKO you need 6 independent suspensions with all its components, 6 shock absorbers and 6 springs, 6 electro engines, 6 wheels. All of that moves, spins and is under a lot of stress. Thats a whole lot of stuff that can break. Next the whole system is highly vulnerable to enemy fire and whats worst for an exploration vehicle - it needs to have contact to the surface in order to move. That greatly limits its range of missions. Crossing lava, quicksand-like surfaces, surfaces with extremely razor sharp rocks etc. With something that hovers (Not talking about conventional technology that requires air), pack enough ezo in that thing and make it hover like a dreadnought in the planets atmosphere in ME3. Heck, we had hovering cars in ME3. Maybe it is more complex but something that hovers and never touches the surface nor contains a lot of moving parts will be a more durable system. Besides that, I don't see any reason to explore a planet using a wheeled APC anyway, why don't we just use an armored drop ship that deploys its crew at interesting spots, flies reconnaissance missions and gives you aerial backup in your missions ? I'd love to explore planets in a dropship, especially if I can fly it myself. Also allows for more visually interesting um, vehicle blocking to force you out on foot for areas. From a game play perspective, I just think it makes a lot more sense. You could, for instance, completely not realize you just flew over a cave and wouldn't feel prompted to get out on foot to see it. This is the year 21XX, we're high in the air with a super advanced space ship in a galaxy far away. I hope we will have instruments by then that actively scan the area for extremely common things like caves.
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Post by Adhin on Aug 26, 2016 22:51:45 GMT
We have flying cars, not hover cars in ME1-3. I mean, they can technically 'hover' like a Helicopter does, sit in place and all that. Flying vs Ground vehicle from a gameplay perspective dramatically changes both how they have to make the maps and our experience. We have to take off and land everytime we want to explore something new. Over, and over and over. With a ground vehicle it's just get in and go, no taking off or landing. It's less time consuming and they have more complex non-vehicle area designs available to them.
For example if they went flying instead of ground vehicle. All areas that disallow the use of vehicles would ultimately be underground. Because it's a ground vehicle they have more freedom to build up. Like you can have a small persons sized space between 2 large rocks that leads up to a cliff side (may of made this example earlier). Where as that'd end up just being 'another cave' if we used a flying vehicle instead.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Aug 26, 2016 23:17:54 GMT
To be blunt: shitty lore bad world building, possibly combined with the fact that they had no idea how to handle the alternative but wanted planetary exploration anyway. Consider the lore of Mass Effect's guns: weapons that shave ammo off of a super-dense block of base material and compensate the weight of that block with an integrated mass effect field, only to arrive at about the same weapon performance as our comparatively utterly primitive present day weaponry. Despite the fact that the ammo you load into Mass Effect's weapon is supposedly a "thermal clip" that acts as a heat sink, pretty much every weapon's "rounds per thermal clip" is inspired by present day ammo capacities and not by the potential heat generation of the weapon as it should be. Single shot standard pistols should have a nearly unlimited ammo count if the limitation were the thermal clip, because pistols fire low velocity rounds that cause little heat. Who has ever managed to overheat a present day pistol? Machine guns, on the other hand, should either require several thermal clips (which they don't) or have a very low "rounds per thermal clip" count, because these things generate a lot of heat, wearing out a clip that much faster. Also, I should be able to freely decide for which weapons I want to use my thermal clips since they are supposedly universal, but picking one up just increases the spare ammo count of all guns carried, so I'm somehow forced to split them. Finally, despite the mass effect field that counters the weight of the ammo block, weapon weight still exists as a balancing factor in the game. Why the hell do ultra light materials exist if, according to the lore, there is a mass effect field to reduce weight? You could just adjust the gun's weight to something a given soldier is comfortable with. And this is the lore for guns, a mass produced item that every soldier requires. Overengineered as all hell, as far as the lore goes, for no measurable gain in efficiency over present day weapon designs, plus some nonsensical oversights as a bonus. I don't agree with some of that. As far as I remember, small-arms in the ME verse actually are much better than current weaponry, it's just that defenses are also much better. Unfortunately, cutscenes are incredibly inconsistent when it comes to showing this; sometimes weapons instantly kill someone who should have shields and armour (most of the time, in fact), and sometimes shields actually work and nothing happens at all. As for heat, these are railguns, remember. That means that even pistols would produce a lot of heat. I can also see the utility in even 1-round weapons, because it all depends on what you want to use your weapon for. The Executioner is so-named for a reason, and an anti-matériel rifle like the Javelin doesn't need more ammo if your target is destroyed with one shot. As a funny note, the Widow's description also sates that it's used to take out armour... and krogan As for thermal clips, I do like ME1's lore and use of the overheat mechanic more, and it was also more unique. I don't remember if it was confirmed, but I blame EA's executive meddling for later games introducing thermal clips (to bring it in-line with shooters) I'm glad ME3 at least brought back the overheat mechanic for some weapons. You're right about some of the game mechanics not making sense, but that's gameplay-story segregation at work (not that it makes it a good thing, but it is what it is). Thermal clips should be universal, and that would mean you'd have a global "reload number" instead of a spare ammo counter. Reloading any weapon would lower your total. It would also mean if you reloaded after firing one round, you'd still lose the rest of your "magazine". But I can see how that would get annoying fast, so, meh. Weight also doesn't make much sense, but again, gameplay stuff. Although now I wonder that if a massive, non-aerodynamic object without wings had its mass reduced (that's what the ME fields do, right?) enough to fly, how would it react to a gust of wind? Well, I feel like it would react similarly to a leaf or piece of paper blowing in the wind. Low mass + high surface area would mean huge drag and no momentum, which would cause the vehicle to be nigh-uncontrollable. Quite impractical. So I can see why the ME verse still has distinct vehicles classes such as tanks and aircraft. *snip* Next the whole system is highly vulnerable to enemy fire and whats worst for an exploration vehicle - it needs to have contact to the surface in order to move. That greatly limits its range of missions. Crossing lava, quicksand-like surfaces, surfaces with extremely razor sharp rocks etc. Do you remember ME1? We literally crossed lava with the Mako. Its thrusters combined with a short use of ME fields allows it to cross gaps and bypass other hazards.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 26, 2016 23:39:32 GMT
We have flying cars, not hover cars in ME1-3. I mean, they can technically 'hover' like a Helicopter does, sit in place and all that. Flying vs Ground vehicle from a gameplay perspective dramatically changes both how they have to make the maps and our experience. We have to take off and land everytime we want to explore something new. Over, and over and over. With a ground vehicle it's just get in and go, no taking off or landing. It's less time consuming and they have more complex non-vehicle area designs available to them. For example if they went flying instead of ground vehicle. All areas that disallow the use of vehicles would ultimately be underground. Because it's a ground vehicle they have more freedom to build up. Like you can have a small persons sized space between 2 large rocks that leads up to a cliff side (may of made this example earlier). Where as that'd end up just being 'another cave' if we used a flying vehicle instead. Well, exploring underground caverns is the only downside there is to flying vehicles. Thats why I'd prefer a dropship that has a small APC on board. Exploration with a flying vehicle is faster, safer and more efficient by several magnitudes than using ground vehicles, and thats exactly what we are already doing in the 21st century. Exploration and reconnaissance with aircrafts. Have to cross a huge canyon? Fly across it in a matter of seconds. Getting ambushed by enemy forces? The flying vehicle takes off and makes a tactical vertical retreat in an instant. There is a large desert between us and the next interesting place? No problem, lets fly to that place with 900 mph. There is a giant impenetrable jungle and we have to cross it? No problem, lets go to 2000ft and enjoy a nice view from above it while we cross it with 900mph. The terrain looks dangerous and there might be an ambush? Just go to 200k ft altitude and check it out from above to be safe. Shit is flying and we have to get back to the mothership ASAP? No problem, we're in orbit in 2 minutes. Also landing and taking off again is a matter of seconds as we have seen with the little ME3 dropship. But ask yourself, lets say you're a scientist and want to explore a jungle or a rocky desert that is full with dangerous creatures and unknown threats - what do you do? Take a 4x4 Jeep and fight a way through the jungle and across the dangerous terrain or do you take a chopper and enjoy the view, let the instruments scan the area and drop out at interesting places? Having a wheeled ground vehicle for exploration makes zero sense from a safety and efficiency standpoint .
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 26, 2016 23:57:26 GMT
I don't agree with some of that. As far as I remember, small-arms in the ME verse actually are much better than current weaponry, it's just that defenses are also much better. Unfortunately, cutscenes are incredibly inconsistent when it comes to showing this; sometimes weapons instantly kill someone who should have shields and armour (most of the time, in fact), and sometimes shields actually work and nothing happens at all. Good point about the better defenses... I thought about that too. But wouldn't that mean that unarmored targets (like husks, cannibals, any human just wearing a uniform instead of plated carapace armor, or creatures that just have natural armor like collectors) would be ripped to shreds because they aren't wearing a modern armor suit that negates the advances in weaponry? I hope I don't appear like I'm splitting hairs too much, I kinda enjoy trying to make sense of this. Though I suspect in the end we will have to agree on "story/gameplay segregation"...
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Post by Iakus on Aug 27, 2016 0:04:22 GMT
Probably more energy efficient to drive a wheeled vehicle across the ground than supporting one in the air. Even with eezo.
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