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Post by todo on Aug 25, 2016 4:00:04 GMT
The title says it. In the E3 video showing off Andromeda, a wheeled vehicle made its appearance. But why? I thought after about 500 years that technology would have moved away from the wheel and more towards hover crafts (you know, kind of like in Mass Effect 2 when we got the hover vehicle dlc).
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Post by Cyonan on Aug 25, 2016 4:25:00 GMT
I can still see wheels being practical, to be honest.
The higher tech something is, the easier it is to break it. Wheels are going to be much more reliable than hover tech, especially for a vehicle out on the frontier.
Plus, the Mako has no time for your physics anyway. It's not like terrain has ever stopped it(which would be the main benefit of using hover tech is ignoring terrain).
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Post by Jaal Ama Darav (Kierro) on Aug 25, 2016 4:32:45 GMT
500 years have past naturally, but due to cryogenic sleep tubes, it was like... Javik "A FEW MINUTES!!!" So, no, technology didn't improve, it was the same as 500 years ago.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 25, 2016 4:36:26 GMT
Yeah, it makes little sense to have a wheeled vehicle in the ME universe, but hey... you don't get to enjoy tearing up all the cool, Frostbite-driven landscape flying 30,000 feet above it.
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Post by Element Zero on Aug 25, 2016 4:43:30 GMT
Additionally, the timeline has not advanced technologically for those frozen in cryosleep. Five hundred years passed in cryosleep doesn't mean much in terms of developing new technologies to replace the old. Maybe on Earth they've reinvented the wheel, but not on the Arks. They've been asleep. Edit: took so long posting, I got Ninja'd on this part.
We shouldn't see too many "new" technologies from the Milky Way species. No doubt we will see new takes on the existing tech. The game would be pretty damn drab, otherwise. We shouldn't see anything that wouldn't have at least been possible circa the ME2 era, though, if they want to stay consistent with the previous games.
Everything we take should be proven designs with Andromeda Initiative-specific customizations. This allows a lot of wiggle room for the devs to redesign familiar weapons, armor and other gear. It will feel familiar, but fresh, as it should in a new series for a new generation of gaming technology.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 25, 2016 7:03:09 GMT
Energy consumption, viability in different gravity environments, lower emissions, better stealth capability and the capability to house a cocktail bar make a wheeled vehicle an excellent pick for intergalactic expeditions.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2016 7:50:04 GMT
Real life answer - Apparently, more fans liked the mako than liked the hammerhead... simple as that. Personally, I'm still hoping that the new mako has a hidden hover ability... but I'm not counting on it.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 25, 2016 8:10:09 GMT
To be blunt: shitty lore bad world building, possibly combined with the fact that they had no idea how to handle the alternative but wanted planetary exploration anyway.
Consider the lore of Mass Effect's guns: weapons that shave ammo off of a super-dense block of base material and compensate the weight of that block with an integrated mass effect field, only to arrive at about the same weapon performance as our comparatively utterly primitive present day weaponry. Despite the fact that the ammo you load into Mass Effect's weapon is supposedly a "thermal clip" that acts as a heat sink, pretty much every weapon's "rounds per thermal clip" is inspired by present day ammo capacities and not by the potential heat generation of the weapon as it should be. Single shot standard pistols should have a nearly unlimited ammo count if the limitation were the thermal clip, because pistols fire low velocity rounds that cause little heat. Who has ever managed to overheat a present day pistol? Machine guns, on the other hand, should either require several thermal clips (which they don't) or have a very low "rounds per thermal clip" count, because these things generate a lot of heat, wearing out a clip that much faster.
Also, I should be able to freely decide for which weapons I want to use my thermal clips since they are supposedly universal, but picking one up just increases the spare ammo count of all guns carried, so I'm somehow forced to split them. Finally, despite the mass effect field that counters the weight of the ammo block, weapon weight still exists as a balancing factor in the game. Why the hell do ultra light materials exist if, according to the lore, there is a mass effect field to reduce weight? You could just adjust the gun's weight to something a given soldier is comfortable with.
And this is the lore for guns, a mass produced item that every soldier requires. Overengineered as all hell, as far as the lore goes, for no measurable gain in efficiency over present day weapon designs, plus some nonsensical oversights as a bonus.
And then we have the Mako. A single piece of technology attached to an exploration vessel. Given the weight reducing mass effect technology being mass produced for guns as described above, this should be a flight capable hover vehicle. An armed, flight capable hover vehicle, given that we're going off into the unknown. Instead we get an unarmed truck. Maybe they just don't know how to implement a proper exploration vehicle, and the code for wheeled vehicles came free from DICE.
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Post by Addictress on Aug 25, 2016 8:17:31 GMT
Additionally, the timeline has not advanced technologically for those frozen in cryosleep. Five hundred years passed in cryosleep doesn't mean much in terms of developing new technologies to replace the old. Maybe on Earth they've reinvented the wheel, but not on the Arks. They've been asleep. Edit: took so long posting, I got Ninja'd on this part. We shouldn't see too many "new" technologies from the Milky Way species. No doubt we will see new takes on the existing tech. The game would be pretty damn drab, otherwise. We shouldn't see anything that wouldn't have at least been possible circa the ME2 era, though, if they want to stay consistent with the previous games. Everything we take should be proven designs with Andromeda Initiative-specific customizations. This allows a lot of wiggle room for the devs to redesign familiar weapons, armor and other gear. It will feel familiar, but fresh, as it should in a new series for a new generation of gaming technology. I'm truly hoping the main crew's armor isn't Dead-spaced into a fractured new style that completely diverges from Mass Effect 1-3. Everything on the ship should be based on the styles we saw in Mass Effect 1-3 as it literally comes from those years.
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Post by Addictress on Aug 25, 2016 8:18:37 GMT
The armor on the alien races.... they can go nuts on the new designs. But don't touch Ryder's armor, I swear to the Maker.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Aug 25, 2016 8:22:57 GMT
Also the Hammerhead probably burns tons of fuel just to stay in the air.
If I want a hovering vehicle, I'd just go with a straight up gunship, like the A-61 Mantis.
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Post by The Elder King on Aug 25, 2016 10:15:05 GMT
To be blunt: shitty lore bad world building, possibly combined with the fact that they had no idea how to handle the alternative but wanted planetary exploration anyway. Consider the lore of Mass Effect's guns: weapons that shave ammo off of a super-dense block of base material and compensate the weight of that block with an integrated mass effect field, only to arrive at about the same weapon performance as our comparatively utterly primitive present day weaponry. Despite the fact that the ammo you load into Mass Effect's weapon is supposedly a "thermal clip" that acts as a heat sink, pretty much every weapon's "rounds per thermal clip" is inspired by present day ammo capacities and not by the potential heat generation of the weapon as it should be. Single shot standard pistols should have a nearly unlimited ammo count if the limitation were the thermal clip, because pistols fire low velocity rounds that cause little heat. Who has ever managed to overheat a present day pistol? Machine guns, on the other hand, should either require several thermal clips (which they don't) or have a very low "rounds per thermal clip" count, because these things generate a lot of heat, wearing out a clip that much faster. Also, I should be able to freely decide for which weapons I want to use my thermal clips since they are supposedly universal, but picking one up just increases the spare ammo count of all guns carried, so I'm somehow forced to split them. Finally, despite the mass effect field that counters the weight of the ammo block, weapon weight still exists as a balancing factor in the game. Why the hell do ultra light materials exist if, according to the lore, there is a mass effect field to reduce weight? You could just adjust the gun's weight to something a given soldier is comfortable with. And this is the lore for guns, a mass produced item that every soldier requires. Overengineered as all hell, as far as the lore goes, for no measurable gain in efficiency over present day weapon designs, plus some nonsensical oversights as a bonus. And then we have the Mako. A single piece of technology attached to an exploration vessel. Given the weight reducing mass effect technology being mass produced for guns as described above, this should be a flight capable hover vehicle. An armed, flight capable hover vehicle, given that we're going off into the unknown. Instead we get an unarmed truck. Maybe they just don't know how to implement a proper exploration vehicle, and the code for wheeled vehicles came free from DICE. Not that I disagree with you, but it seems for your post that the Mako problem came with Andromeda, while the lore of Mass Effect, as wrong as it can be, have wheeled vehicles from the start, and the Andromeda expedictions seem to be based on the same technology of the former trilogy. They could've gone with developing the new vehicle based on the Hammerhead And not the Mako, but I think that the choice was more based on the former being even less well received then the latter. I do agree with the weight system, though it existed since the first game. At least with ME3 you can decide which type of weapon pick.
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Post by Xerxes52 on Aug 25, 2016 10:16:02 GMT
Also the Hammerhead probably burns tons of fuel just to stay in the air. If you want a hovering vehicle, I'd just go with a straight up gunship, like the A-61 Mantis. The Mantis is both ugly and has impractical design. The wing configuration offers no aerodynamic advantages and it looks smaller from the outside than it should be assuming it can carry passengers. The new Sci-fi CoD actually has more practical designs for flying APC / Gunship combo. Not really a big fan of the gunship's design either, but it's the only example they've got so far. Personally these two are my favorite dropships/gunships in science fiction:
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Post by Wulfram on Aug 25, 2016 10:42:45 GMT
It makes sense to me that an armoured combat vehicle, like the ME1 Mako, might not fly/hover. I mean, you could probably make a hovering version, but if you have to compromise armour or weapons systems to do it it might not be worth it.
Mass Effect technology doesn't make weight irrelevant, you need more power and a bigger core to counter bigger weights.
The ME3's apparent light scout Mako seems odder, though. I don't really see why we don't just take a shuttle
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 25, 2016 11:15:43 GMT
Not that I disagree with you, but it seems for your post that the Mako problem came with Andromeda, while the lore of Mass Effect, as wrong as it can be, have wheeled vehicles from the start, and the Andromeda expedictions seem to be based on the same technology of the former trilogy. They could've gone with developing the new vehicle based on the Hammerhead And not the Mako, but I think that the choice was more based on the former being even less well received then the latter. I do agree with the weight system, though it existed since the first game. At least with ME3 you can decide which type of weapon pick. It's true, the majority of problems existed back in ME1, most importantly the wheeled vehicles (without thermal clips the lore for weapons made a bit more sense though). And the Mako's popularity very likely played a role, too, so I agree with what you said. However, in Andromeda these technological discrepancies look even bigger, since the Tempest looks like a bigger, more modern version of the Normandy, while the Mako even lost its armament in the meanwhile, which makes it look even more like a basic truck. I'm curious to see whether it can still be dropped from a flying craft.
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Post by The Elder King on Aug 25, 2016 11:24:48 GMT
Not that I disagree with you, but it seems for your post that the Mako problem came with Andromeda, while the lore of Mass Effect, as wrong as it can be, have wheeled vehicles from the start, and the Andromeda expedictions seem to be based on the same technology of the former trilogy. They could've gone with developing the new vehicle based on the Hammerhead And not the Mako, but I think that the choice was more based on the former being even less well received then the latter. I do agree with the weight system, though it existed since the first game. At least with ME3 you can decide which type of weapon pick. It's true, the majority of problems existed back in ME1, most importantly the wheeled vehicles (without thermal clips the lore for weapons made a bit more sense though). And the Mako's popularity very likely played a role, too, so I agree with what you said. However, in Andromeda these technological discrepancies look even bigger, since the Tempest looks like a bigger, more modern version of the Normandy, while the Mako even lost its armament in the meanwhile, which makes it look even more like a basic truck. I'm curious to see whether it can still be dropped from a flying craft. That's true. I hope they change their minds and add weapons to the Mako.
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 25, 2016 12:38:26 GMT
I can still see wheels being practical, to be honest. The higher tech something is, the easier it is to break it. Wheels are going to be much more reliable than hover tech, especially for a vehicle out on the frontier. Plus, the Mako has no time for your physics anyway. It's not like terrain has ever stopped it(which would be the main benefit of using hover tech is ignoring terrain). <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> I'm a big fan of hover tech. What makes wheels more reliable? Wheel tech has more moving parts that hover....
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Post by Ahriman on Aug 25, 2016 13:06:17 GMT
And then we have the Mako. A single piece of technology attached to an exploration vessel. Given the weight reducing mass effect technology being mass produced for guns as described above, this should be a flight capable hover vehicle. While I agree with you on guns, I've always thought that hover-tanks while looking cool are a ridiculous concept. If you can make a hover-tank, just make a flying tank instead. Besides engineers always tried to slap on a tank as much armor as possible, if it still can fly you clearly haven't put enough armor on it
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Post by goishen on Aug 25, 2016 13:22:05 GMT
Well, the thing that I think that most of you are forgetting is the level of tech. It's often a lower level of tech that will get the job done and everybody knows how it works. Plus, another thing is fuel. While it is true that more tech means that it becomes more efficient, it does nothing for the actual fuel. While lower tech is less efficient it is much much easier to find fuel for.
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 25, 2016 13:25:23 GMT
While I agree with you on guns, I've always thought that hover-tanks while looking cool are a ridiculous concept. If you can make a hover-tank, just make a flying tank instead. Besides engineers always tried to slap on a tank as much armor as possible, if it still can fly you clearly haven't put enough armor on it Do you mean hover tanks in general or in the Mass Effect universe? If you are referring to the Mass Effect universe, then yes, you might as well make the vehicle fly all the time unless you introduced some "balancing factors" like an overall energy consumption rate that, for example, goes up significantly if the vehicle is flying and thus leaving less energy to distribute to shields and energy based guns. Other than that... yeah, it might as well just fly. Although now I wonder that if a massive, non-aerodynamic object without wings had its mass reduced (that's what the ME fields do, right?) enough to fly, how would it react to a gust of wind?
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Post by Ahriman on Aug 25, 2016 13:36:52 GMT
Do you mean hover tanks in general or in the Mass Effect universe? If you are referring to the Mass Effect universe, then yes, you might as well make the vehicle fly all the time unless you introduced some "balancing factors" like an overall energy consumption rate that, for example, goes up significantly if the vehicle is flying and thus leaving less energy to distribute to shields and energy based guns. Other than that... yeah, it might as well just fly. In general. Unless it has some magic tech which apparently works only on 1m above the ground, but not 100. If it uses rotors or reactive propelling then all justifications for hovercrafts are just pure nonsense. Depends on how much it's mass was reduced. Why would you make it non-aerodynamic though?
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Post by SofaJockey on Aug 25, 2016 13:55:55 GMT
I can still see wheels being practical, to be honest. The higher tech something is, the easier it is to break it. Wheels are going to be much more reliable than hover tech, especially for a vehicle out on the frontier. Plus, the Mako has no time for your physics anyway. It's not like terrain has ever stopped it(which would be the main benefit of using hover tech is ignoring terrain). <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> I'm a big fan of hover tech. What makes wheels more reliable? Wheel tech has more moving parts that hover.... Indeed, hoverbikes, even better
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 25, 2016 14:12:49 GMT
In general. Unless it has some magic tech which apparently works only on 1m above the ground, but not 100. If it uses rotors or reactive propelling then all justifications for hovercrafts are just pure nonsense. Well, I'm no expert, but the difference would be the same principle that present day hovercraft work with: close to the ground, a rotor creates an "air cushion" that can keep a vehicle floating right above ground but which would dissipate if the rotor moved upwards. Depends on how much it's mass was reduced. Why would you make it non-aerodynamic though? No special reason, I just imagined a big flying tank and wondered how far that mass effect field would really go or whether there would be any limitation were it became unfeasible.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 25, 2016 14:43:37 GMT
Hovercraft don't work well on airless planets.
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Post by Pounce de León on Aug 25, 2016 16:57:30 GMT
Hovercraft don't work well on airless planets. I don't see why not. With an Eezo core you can essentially say "fuck gravity", and since in Sci-fi they usually use thrusters rather than propellers for hovering, the lack of air will have little impact. I was thinking of a classic hovercraft. Isn't eezo consumed when it's producing a mass effect? What if there is no eezo handy in Andromeda?
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