Adhin
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Post by Adhin on Aug 27, 2016 0:41:42 GMT
Well, exploring underground caverns is the only downside there is to flying vehicles. Thats why I'd prefer a dropship that has a small APC on board. Exploration with a flying vehicle is faster, safer and more efficient by several magnitudes than using ground vehicles, and thats exactly what we are already doing in the 21st century. Exploration and reconnaissance with aircrafts. Have to cross a huge canyon? Fly across it in a matter of seconds. Getting ambushed by enemy forces? The flying vehicle takes off and makes a tactical vertical retreat in an instant. There is a large desert between us and the next interesting place? No problem, lets fly to that place with 900 mph. There is a giant impenetrable jungle and we have to cross it? No problem, lets go to 2000ft and enjoy a nice view from above it while we cross it with 900mph. The terrain looks dangerous and there might be an ambush? Just go to 200k ft altitude and check it out from above to be safe. Shit is flying and we have to get back to the mothership ASAP? No problem, we're in orbit in 2 minutes. Also landing and taking off again is a matter of seconds as we have seen with the little ME3 dropship. But ask yourself, lets say you're a scientist and want to explore a jungle or a rocky desert that is full with dangerous creatures and unknown threats - what do you do? Take a 4x4 Jeep and fight a way through the jungle and across the dangerous terrain or do you take a chopper and enjoy the view, let the instruments scan the area and drop out at interesting places? Having a wheeled ground vehicle for exploration makes zero sense from a safety and efficiency standpoint . Yeah I agree with that to some extent. The Tempest 'is' an exploration flying vehicle and as we've seen can go in atmosphere and land so it already kinda can handle that. Though I think it still makes sense for there to be a smaller flying shuttle on top of that (along with the Mako). Options are always nice either way. That said a lot of my points where about actual gameplay not just what makes the most realistic sense. The maps them selves wont be 'that' big and a flying vehicle would require we constantly take off and land over and over to get around instead of just getting in the Mako and driving immediately. Then again it can be done rather quickly too. I mean, looking at Halo you can make flying Vehicles pop off the ground as part of the getting in animation and immediately get flying. Landing's always been the more awkward issue with games when I think about it lol. I'm sure they could come up with some solution (probably limiting are flight height) and using some simple button command to 'land' forcing it into an auto-pilot landing. Either way Mako is what they went with for ground exploration. And from a gameplay perspective I ultimately agree with it. From a lore perspective having a Kodiak in the ship along with the Mako would make a ton of sense and would ultimately open up options for all manner of things. Though I don't think much of that would actually play out in game sadly. That said it WOULD be pretty awesome to have some crazy planet with no a lot of drivable surface area that requires we use the Kodiak (or like-variant) to fly from landing spot to landing spot. Either way gameplay is more important, but lore wise variety and options makes the most sense (and that can also work into gameplay). I mean outside of scientist (which weren't not) having the Mako makes a lot of sense for ground combat. Not that I think we'd actually have someone drive the Mako for us while we use it for cover. But that's what APC are used for, mobile cover, and the Mako would do a damn good job at that. |
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 27, 2016 0:46:43 GMT
Either way gameplay is more important, but lore wise variety and options makes the most sense (and that can also work into gameplay). I mean outside of scientist (which weren't not) having the Mako makes a lot of sense for ground combat. Not that I think we'd actually have someone drive the Mako for us while we use it for cover. But that's what APC are used for, mobile cover, and the Mako would do a damn good job at that. No, it doesn't for one simple reason: this 'Mako' doesn't have any armaments. The only way it would serve in combat is ramming enemies or using it as a shield. |
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 27, 2016 0:55:54 GMT
I mean outside of scientist (which weren't not) having the Mako makes a lot of sense for ground combat. Not that I think we'd actually have someone drive the Mako for us while we use it for cover. But that's what APC are used for, mobile cover, and the Mako would do a damn good job at that. Aside from the MAKO not having any armament, air raids from flying vehicles are far more efficient than any tank. You can attack from any angle, you can dodge into any direction, your enemy has a very hard time finding cover, you can spot enemies from a great distance and engage them from relative safety, you can attack and be gone before the enemy even knows what hit them. And as we all know, speed is the essence of war. |
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Adhin
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Post by Adhin on Aug 27, 2016 1:33:43 GMT
@hanako Ikezawa: Removing ALL the guns from the MAKO is pretty stupid lore wise, for sure. I can understand dropping the cannon but removing the MG all together is just kinda pointless. However even an unarmed but heavily armored ground vehicle can be useful for ground TROOPS. It is, ultimately mobile armor. Tanks and APC are used for that purpose pretty extensively in the realsies. Basically troops walk close to the heavily armored vehicle and use it as cover and use it to advance with relative safety.
You can't do that effectively with a hovering vehicle, or a flying one for that matter. Speaking of flying vehicles...
@giant Ambush Beetle: Agreed-ish. Yeah in a battle air superiority is huge and we have the TEMPEST for that. However if you have to do a ground operation your not going to want to be in the Tempest. You'll want the Tempest for support, for sure, but your not going to want to physically be on it while it's doing its air fly bys.
In that situation a Mako can be useful for the reasons I mentioned above (and in other posts on other pages) as mobile armor/cover. Still stupid as shit they removed all the weapons. Maybe we can at least attach an MG to it via upgrades, I dunno.
We've actually seen the Normandy kinda help out as air support on some missions in the past games. All be it a rarity and sparingly. Usually it's just a 'get back so we can take off immediately' instead of actual providing cover fire. No reason that can't change though for MEA.
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Post by BansheeOwnage on Aug 28, 2016 5:46:32 GMT
I don't agree with some of that. As far as I remember, small-arms in the ME verse actually are much better than current weaponry, it's just that defenses are also much better. Unfortunately, cutscenes are incredibly inconsistent when it comes to showing this; sometimes weapons instantly kill someone who should have shields and armour (most of the time, in fact), and sometimes shields actually work and nothing happens at all. Good point about the better defenses... I thought about that too. But wouldn't that mean that unarmored targets (like husks, cannibals, any human just wearing a uniform instead of plated carapace armor, or creatures that just have natural armor like collectors) would be ripped to shreds because they aren't wearing a modern armor suit that negates the advances in weaponry? I hope I don't appear like I'm splitting hairs too much, I kinda enjoy trying to make sense of this. Though I suspect in the end we will have to agree on "story/gameplay segregation"...  Yes, logically soft fleshy things wouldn't stand a chance. Husks you could handwave into being a bit tougher than you'd expect because Reaper Tech™, and Cannibals create their own chitinous armour by consuming dead things. But yes, normal species should be killed easily. Ha, no, don't worry about it, I also enjoy trying to make sense of it. Though I also suspect we won't be able to fully make sense of it because of gameplay/story segregation  No, it doesn't for one simple reason: this 'Mako' doesn't have any armaments. The only way it would serve in combat is ramming enemies or using it as a shield. Is anyone else quite disappointed that the new Mako doesn't have armaments? I just can't see the advantages either in-universe or for gameplay. It's always nice to be able to have vehicle gameplay and infantry gameplay available, and I feel like it would be quite tedious to have to disembark every time we run into a threat, then climb back in. I liked having weapons on it in ME1. On an unrelated note, I feel like we should always have the option to call in an orbital strike from the Tempest while exploring, like the Geth Target Designator+Normandy on Rannoch. |
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 28, 2016 6:08:42 GMT
Yes, logically soft fleshy things wouldn't stand a chance. Husks you could handwave into being a bit tougher than you'd expect because Reaper Tech™, and Cannibals create their own chitinous armour by consuming dead things. But yes, normal species should be killed easily. Ha, no, don't worry about it, I also enjoy trying to make sense of it. Though I also suspect we won't be able to fully make sense of it because of gameplay/story segregation You know, talking about the advanced weapon technology made me remember the assassins outside of Chora's Den on Insanity, who ate so many bullets than in the end I was convinced that the reason for them going down was not excessive laceration or some such, but the combined weight of hundreds of flattened projectiles stuck in their armor. Is anyone else quite disappointed that the new Mako doesn't have armaments? I just can't see the advantages either in-universe or for gameplay. It's always nice to be able to have vehicle gameplay and infantry gameplay available, and I feel like it would be quite tedious to have to disembark every time we run into a threat, the climb back in. I liked having weapons on it in ME1. The new Mako being unarmed is one of these headscratch inducing decision. Here we are, going out into the big unknown, landing on unexplored planets with potentially hostile creatures, and our exploration vehicle doesn't have any armaments. Probably not even slits for the team members to fire through like present day APCs. Maybe they just didn't know how to solve the experience dilemma of the original Mako? I always exited it and did my firefights on foot to get the full XP... maybe they remembered that and chose to avoid the problem by not installing any guns on the Mako. On an unrelated note, I feel like we should always have the option to call in an orbital strike from the Tempest while exploring, like the Geth Target Designator+Normandy on Rannoch. More interaction between the Tempest and the ground team would be awesome! Orbital strikes or just a ground scan to give everyone a nice detailed minimap instead of having to manually drive across the entire planet surface to find every point of interest - with an unarmed Mako no less. |
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 28, 2016 13:23:10 GMT
<<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>
The Mako is here for ME:A.
However, I really prefer Bio introduces air craft for exploration in ME:A 2-3. Hell, if Battlefield 1 can have planes, ME:A 2 should have sci-fi combat craft too!.
Giant Ambush Beetle up thread explained the advantages of a flying craft, really well.
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Evil
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Post by Evil on Aug 28, 2016 15:35:55 GMT
Good point about the better defenses... I thought about that too. But wouldn't that mean that unarmored targets (like husks, cannibals, any human just wearing a uniform instead of plated carapace armor, or creatures that just have natural armor like collectors) would be ripped to shreds because they aren't wearing a modern armor suit that negates the advances in weaponry? I hope I don't appear like I'm splitting hairs too much, I kinda enjoy trying to make sense of this. Though I suspect in the end we will have to agree on "story/gameplay segregation"... Yes, logically soft fleshy things wouldn't stand a chance. Husks you could handwave into being a bit tougher than you'd expect because Reaper Tech™, and Cannibals create their own chitinous armour by consuming dead things. But yes, normal species should be killed easily. Ha, no, don't worry about it, I also enjoy trying to make sense of it. Though I also suspect we won't be able to fully make sense of it because of gameplay/story segregation We already have a thing IRL called overpenetration, where a bullet can potentially have too much penetrating power and go straight through the target without causing any real damage unless you hit a vital organ or artery. An extremely low calibre high velocity round such as that fired by most of mass effects small arms would be highly susceptible to this problem, so it's not that surprising that they aren't as effective against unarmoured/unshielded foes as you might expect. |
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Post by helios969 on Aug 28, 2016 19:07:25 GMT
Simply put, it's the rule of cool over logic...and under such scenario I'd much preferred an off road version of the Tron motorcycle. My only hope at this point is the Mako is very customizable and despite what they've said before carry an array of weapon systems. On top of that they better incorporate it into gameplay tactics and cutscenes where applicable. I'd really rather have a shuttle.
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Post by goishen on Aug 28, 2016 20:46:45 GMT
Remember, all of what we have seen, which isn't that much, is in maybe, MAYBE, the first eighth of the game. I don't really consider that to be all there is to the Mako. Either it's because we don't have enough resources yet, or we don't have any schematics (and resources) yet.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 29, 2016 10:13:30 GMT
An extremely low calibre high velocity round such as that fired by most of mass effects small arms would be highly susceptible to this problem, so it's not that surprising that they aren't as effective against unarmoured/unshielded foes as you might expect. That is not true. Todays NATO Spec round in assault rifles is the 5,56 NATO. Thats a bullet with a mere diameter of 5 millimeters (.223) which is SMALL. But when it strikes soft targets it immediately starts to break apart. Fragmentation combined with speeds around 900 meters a second muzzle velocity causes soft-ball sized cavities inside you. In fact, its very hard to make bullets that will NOT break apart with those velocities. To make them better against armor and barriers they put hardened steel cores in them that wont break apart immediately. Also even if the bullet does NOT break apart, the speed of a bullet entering your body will push your water based fluids aside with very high velocities (water cannot be compressed) also causing damage far greater than just the tiny bullet channel. Hydrostatic shock is a thing. Conclusion: with the velocities guns reach in ME it would be incredibly hard to make them not fragment violently upon impact. We can use micro-asteroids for example, they're several times faster than any rifle bullet. Even those made of pure metal will transfer most of their energy into heat upon impact. Instead of punching through armor like butter the will shatter and melt in a millisecond causing severe- but only superficial- damage. So according to my understanding rifle bullets in ME would cause relatively shallow but devastating damage to targets. Great against unarmored, soft targets, problematic against armor. To make them better against armor you'd actually have to lower velocities and increase sectional density. Fragmentation: Hydrostatic shock: |
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Post by degs29 on Aug 29, 2016 13:13:28 GMT
Ahh, the ever-present challenge in video games of balancing what makes sense with what's fun to play.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 29, 2016 16:37:22 GMT
I mean outside of scientist (which weren't not) having the Mako makes a lot of sense for ground combat. Not that I think we'd actually have someone drive the Mako for us while we use it for cover. But that's what APC are used for, mobile cover, and the Mako would do a damn good job at that. Aside from the MAKO not having any armament, air raids from flying vehicles are far more efficient than any tank. You can attack from any angle, you can dodge into any direction, your enemy has a very hard time finding cover, you can spot enemies from a great distance and engage them from relative safety, you can attack and be gone before the enemy even knows what hit them. And as we all know, speed is the essence of war. Flying vehicles are also easily spotted unless they are very high up, or very low to the ground. Plus in a universe with what are essentially hand-held railguns, dodging is rather problematic. Air reconnaissance is all well and good. But if you want a close look at something, the ground is probably the way to go. |
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Post by Gileadan on Aug 29, 2016 17:02:12 GMT
Any serious exploration would likely begin with a few recon drones circling the area... but that would take the fun out of the gameplay, no? Mass Effect is a rule-of-cool space fantasy... I doubt that any of its designers ever thought of overpenetration, fragmentation or hydrostatic shock. It's fun to poke a few holes into the "cool" though.
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Post by Fogg on Aug 29, 2016 19:44:24 GMT
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Post by Evil on Aug 29, 2016 20:07:10 GMT
Spoilered to reduce the post size An extremely low calibre high velocity round such as that fired by most of mass effects small arms would be highly susceptible to this problem, so it's not that surprising that they aren't as effective against unarmoured/unshielded foes as you might expect. That is not true. Todays NATO Spec round in assault rifles is the 5,56 NATO. Thats a bullet with a mere diameter of 5 millimeters (.223) which is SMALL. But when it strikes soft targets it immediately starts to break apart. Fragmentation combined with speeds around 900 meters a second muzzle velocity causes soft-ball sized cavities inside you. In fact, its very hard to make bullets that will NOT break apart with those velocities. To make them better against armor and barriers they put hardened steel cores in them that wont break apart immediately. Also even if the bullet does NOT break apart, the speed of a bullet entering your body will push your water based fluids aside with very high velocities (water cannot be compressed) also causing damage far greater than just the tiny bullet channel. Hydrostatic shock is a thing. Conclusion: with the velocities guns reach in ME it would be incredibly hard to make them not fragment violently upon impact. We can use micro-asteroids for example, they're several times faster than any rifle bullet. Even those made of pure metal will transfer most of their energy into heat upon impact. Instead of punching through armor like butter the will shatter and melt in a millisecond causing severe- but only superficial- damage. So according to my understanding rifle bullets in ME would cause relatively shallow but devastating damage to targets. Great against unarmored, soft targets, problematic against armor. To make them better against armor you'd actually have to lower velocities and increase sectional density. Fragmentation: Hydrostatic shock: I stand corrected. The round didn't transfer much energy until it had pierced about 2.5 inches, but once it did it transferred a lot in a hell of a hurry, more than enough to do the job. Didn't realise the transition from piercing to transfer was so extreme.  |
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Post by Trilobite Derby on Aug 29, 2016 21:49:51 GMT
The wheel's worked for what? 6000+ years?*
It is an efficient design.
Just because flying space cars look cool doesn't mean that they'd necessarily be more energy efficient, and if we're the homeless vagrants of Andromeda, efficiency is probably worth something to us. It's probably cheaper fuelwise to propel something forward instead of forward and also supporting its own weight.
*I could google this. I know I could google this. I'm not going to google this.
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Post by ApocAlypsE on Aug 29, 2016 22:10:44 GMT
I think it is more an issue of stability and sturdiness. Sure, the hammerhead could glide, but it was paper thin. The ME1 mako was a tank, it could take hits and still be going strong. When something get pushed, it is much more sturdy if it is on the ground than flying. Well the mako in MEA could be a paperweight nulling my point, but in general it makes sense.
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Post by Garo on Aug 29, 2016 23:37:01 GMT
 Well that's why I mean would you rather steer this or this flying paper tissue? |
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Post by bullwinkl3 on Aug 30, 2016 1:11:52 GMT
maybe the hover ability comes later on as an optional upgrade?
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Post by Adhin on Aug 30, 2016 1:35:50 GMT
They did show it jump in the initial 'reveal' of it. Did a little hop over a hill. I would definitely expect there to be thrusters, if not initially later on. No real reason it couldn't have some kinda hover mode, except that they didn't put it in. I mean like, lore wise theres no reason it couldn't manage it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 17:46:11 GMT
Yeah, Mako is pointless as an exoloration vehicle in a universe that has things like the Kodiak and Mantis. I believe we saw Kodiaks in the newest trailer, so why we have the Mako is probably due to rule of cool/nostalgia rather than any sort of in universe practical sense.
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https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.hVm-5wNStlyTEXjhwDoa_wHaEK%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=8f745a5f30b08f8231ddb64664df7375d23cc10878aa50d66fec54e9d570c7e2&ipo=images
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Sartoz on Aug 30, 2016 18:19:57 GMT
Yeah, Mako is pointless as an exoloration vehicle in a universe that has things like the Kodiak and Mantis. I believe we saw Kodiaks in the newest trailer, so why we have the Mako is probably due to rule of cool/nostalgia rather than any sort of in universe practical sense. <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>> Bio did say the Mako is to get you from point A to B... fast. That implies no exploration with it. So, the rule of cool seems appropriate. |
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Jan 20, 2022 14:46:14 GMT
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goishen
twitch.tv/goishen
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August 2016
goishen
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
goishen
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Post by goishen on Aug 30, 2016 18:45:38 GMT
Unless we have to worry about fuel. You all seem to conveniently forget about that.
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Adhin
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 512 Likes: 523
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Sept 3, 2017 12:01:10 GMT
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Adhin
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Aug 15, 2016 13:14:38 GMT
August 2016
adhin
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Adhin on Aug 30, 2016 19:06:16 GMT
Yeah ignoring all the stuff I've said people seem to ignore about the tangible tactical usefulness of having an armored ground vehicle for your ground forces is vs some annoying hovercraft or something that flies (where the Tempest can fulfill that role perfectly well). It would be very awkward if fuel consumption was somehow less for a flying vehicle then a ground one.
I'm honestly a little confused why the Mako doesn't just run on electricity. I mean they 'need' an electrical current to run the Eezo-Core in the first place. You'd think that whole makeup could involve also running the Mako instead of requiring fuel in some combustion engine. Then again maybe it requires fuel to create that electricity instead of charging it. Hell, I dunno maybe it's more of a hybrid in that case.
You think the fuels hydrogen? Kinda curious what they actually 'use' for fuel. I doubt they use fossil fuels, there kinda crap and limited to places with life. You could get water/hydrogen in so many more places. Pretty sure we've made cars that work off that, something like sweden or norway even had some hydrogen stations put up few years back?
Anyway, flyings generally gonna be more resource intensive/expensive considering you have to do more to even achieve it.
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