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Post by ticktak77 on Mar 28, 2017 17:26:23 GMT
Combat? Better Conversations? Better Dialogue? Better Story-telling? Better Missions? Better Ending Mission? Better SIde content? Better Upgradeable elements? Better Morality system? Better THe story is subjective; I personally found the Collectors, and their link to the Protheans and the Reapers, to be far more interesting plot than chasing down Saren, which felt very ham-fisted. I totally understand your issue with the Lazarus Project, but working with Cerberus, who were up until that point, the baddies, was a really interesting twist that I really liked. Did you agree with Cerberus? Or were you using them? I liked that dichotomy. So, yeah. ME2 being a huge improvement on ME1 in almost every way. It's only laughable if you are a hater. And with that, good sir, I am done engaging you. Because that is the mindset of someone who refuses to actually have a debate, and believes they are correct no matter what. Good day. Oh my bad. I didn't realize you actually wanted to have a debate. "laughable" is not how you have a debate, FYI. Later.
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Post by CatcheJagger on Mar 28, 2017 17:54:21 GMT
I'd actually rather that Bioware drop the over large open world segments. Bioware's done it twice and both times, it's been to the detriment of the overall experience. The market is flooded with open world games already. I'd prefer a bit more linearity, with more careful construction going forward.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2017 17:58:12 GMT
The main plot was inferior in every way possible, the Lazarus Project shooting the entire settings science and logic out of the airlock, the council retconned into being total morons who suddenly ignore the very thing they pledged to help with at the end of the previous game. The entire game being the Dr Phil simulator, Daddy Issues edition. Cerberus suddenly being an organization with literally infinite money and resources who does nothing right, but still somehow convinces people to come work for them, in other words, being whatever the plots needs them to be in order to advance. Really I could go on all day about how dumb ME2 really is in regards to writing and story. But people overlook all of these things, because of the companions. But don't act like ME2 is an improvement in every way possible. Because thats just laughable. Combat? Better Conversations? Better Dialogue? Better Story-telling? Better Missions? Better Ending Mission? Better SIde content? Better Upgradeable elements? Better Morality system? Better THe story is subjective; I personally found the Collectors, and their link to the Protheans and the Reapers, to be far more interesting plot than chasing down Saren, which felt very ham-fisted. I totally understand your issue with the Lazarus Project, but working with Cerberus, who were up until that point, the baddies, was a really interesting twist that I really liked. Did you agree with Cerberus? Or were you using them? I liked that dichotomy. So, yeah. ME2 being a huge improvement on ME1 in almost every way. It's only laughable if you are a hater. Combat: arguably better Conversations? Meh. Not enough opportunityies to actaully delve into stuff like the Lazarus Project, rail against Cerberus, etc. Dialogue: Really not much different from ME1 Story-telling? BWAHAHAHAHAHS!!! You have to HAVE a story for there to be story-teling Missions: Recruit, solve daddy issue, repeat. Ending mission: Granted, very well done Side Content: Minimal dialogue, no banter, often easily missed. Upgradable elements: Linear and boring Morality system: Hah! You essentially have to play paragon or renegade or get locked out of dialogue. Collectors: *Shepard's shooting Collectors* EDI: "Shepard, the Collectors are PROTHEANS!" Shepard: "Huh. That's weird" *Shepard continues to shoot Collectors* Cerberus dichotomy: It wasn't dichotomy, it was downright dissonant. And the logic to work alongside them was downright circular. I guess that makes me a hater...
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 28, 2017 17:59:18 GMT
The main plot was inferior in every way possible, the Lazarus Project shooting the entire settings science and logic out of the airlock, the council retconned into being total morons who suddenly ignore the very thing they pledged to help with at the end of the previous game. The entire game being the Dr Phil simulator, Daddy Issues edition. Cerberus suddenly being an organization with literally infinite money and resources who does nothing right, but still somehow convinces people to come work for them, in other words, being whatever the plots needs them to be in order to advance. Really I could go on all day about how dumb ME2 really is in regards to writing and story. But people overlook all of these things, because of the companions. But don't act like ME2 is an improvement in every way possible. Because thats just laughable. ME1's plot had plenty of logic problems too, starting with Tali's magic voice recording time-travelling into the past and Saren searching the galaxy for something he already had. However, ME1 didn't confront the player with the issues as much as ME2 did, so I'll give the edge to ME1.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2017 18:16:43 GMT
The main plot was inferior in every way possible, the Lazarus Project shooting the entire settings science and logic out of the airlock, the council retconned into being total morons who suddenly ignore the very thing they pledged to help with at the end of the previous game. The entire game being the Dr Phil simulator, Daddy Issues edition. Cerberus suddenly being an organization with literally infinite money and resources who does nothing right, but still somehow convinces people to come work for them, in other words, being whatever the plots needs them to be in order to advance. Really I could go on all day about how dumb ME2 really is in regards to writing and story. But people overlook all of these things, because of the companions. But don't act like ME2 is an improvement in every way possible. Because thats just laughable. ME1's plot had plenty of logic problems too, starting with Tali's magic voice recording time-travelling into the past and Saren searching the galaxy for something he already had. However, ME1 didn't confront the player with the issues as much as ME2 did, so I'll give the edge to ME1. What did Saren already have?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 28, 2017 18:29:21 GMT
Access to the Presidium, of course. That's all the Conduit is.
Although you could play this as a funny kind of irony, if Saren and Sovereign actually had no clue what the Conduit was when they went after the beacon, only to discover that they'd just thrown away Saren and Benezia's status over it.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 28, 2017 18:30:13 GMT
This game really is Dragon Age 2 if they had the technology and time and resources to implement it.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 28, 2017 18:31:53 GMT
I'm not holding my breath lol.
The only time they have thus far used "Iterate improve fix" as a mantra for addressing feedback was when people said "I HATE DA:I, I DON'T WANT MASS EFFECT INQUISITION!!!!" and then they made Mass Effect Inquisition by iterating and improving and fixing the formula of DA:I. This is the only time they properly addressed an issue and the feedback was exactly NOT asking for it xD
BioWare always listens wrong somehow. I don't know how that keeps happening.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 28, 2017 18:42:47 GMT
I'm not holding my breath lol. The only time they have thus far used "Iterate improve fix" as a mantra for addressing feedback was when people said "I HATE DA:I, I DON'T WANT MASS EFFECT INQUISITION!!!!" and then they made Mass Effect Inquisition by iterating and improving and fixing the formula of DA:I. This is the only time they properly addressed an issue and the feedback was exactly NOT asking for it xD BioWare always listens wrong somehow. I don't know how that keeps happening.Well it surely does not help that Bioware's fanbase is never on the same page in regards to criticism.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2017 18:57:22 GMT
Access to the Presidium, of course. That's all the Conduit is. Although you could play this as a funny kind of irony, if Saren and Sovereign actually had no clue what the Conduit was when they went after the beacon, only to discover that they'd just thrown away Saren and Benezia's status over it. And how did he know he needed access to the Presidium?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2017 19:02:40 GMT
I'm not holding my breath lol. The only time they have thus far used "Iterate improve fix" as a mantra for addressing feedback was when people said "I HATE DA:I, I DON'T WANT MASS EFFECT INQUISITION!!!!" and then they made Mass Effect Inquisition by iterating and improving and fixing the formula of DA:I. This is the only time they properly addressed an issue and the feedback was exactly NOT asking for it xD BioWare always listens wrong somehow. I don't know how that keeps happening.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 28, 2017 19:10:15 GMT
Well that's the problem. BioWare apparently disagrees with what fans want and it took them half a new studio in Andromeda of fans joining the company to realize that the Mako wasn't actually "I want it gone" levels of bad and the shooting albeit clunky was never so bad that people wanted a Gears of War clone with dialogue trees.
Technical issues aside and writing meh-ness I think Andromeda is a good start that they can easily improve upon with DLC via the "iterate, improve blabla" formula. The worst suggestion I've thus far seen on NeoGAF was a moderator who said "because the animations are so bad and people dislike the writing, I think maybe BioWare should cut their losses and bank on the MP for future games" which is the worst corporate-thinking crap I've ever read lol.
I hope they don't let all the meanspirited jokes about bad animations or terrible lines of dialogue jade them too much. It's a problem but it means people want better, not that they want it gone. Most people are just too subconscious to realize how their criticisms come across, myself included sometimes I guess.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 28, 2017 19:18:39 GMT
Access to the Presidium, of course. That's all the Conduit is. Although you could play this as a funny kind of irony, if Saren and Sovereign actually had no clue what the Conduit was when they went after the beacon, only to discover that they'd just thrown away Saren and Benezia's status over it. And how did he know he needed access to the Presidium? Because that's where you control the Citadel from. That's the problem Sovereign's been trying to solve for centuries. You don't need to run the rest of the playbook here unless you want to. I've already seen you manage to fanwank this mess into something that's plausible if you don't think about it. It's a nice intellectual exercise, but if I want to not think about something I already have vanilla.
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2017 19:20:56 GMT
And how did he know he needed access to the Presidium? Because that's where you control the Citadel from. And how did he know that the controls would work? Put another way: if your car won't start when you turn the key, how do you know where the problem is?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 28, 2017 19:24:43 GMT
I'd certainly start with the car, rather than across the galaxy from the car. Sure, it's possible, given the low quality of the writing,that at some sort of space magic is stopping the car from running, but would you start with that as a plausible hypothesis?
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Post by Iakus on Mar 28, 2017 19:27:36 GMT
I'd certainly start with the car, rather than across the galaxy from the car. Which part of the car?
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 28, 2017 19:30:39 GMT
Huh? . The car's all in the same place.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 28, 2017 19:36:44 GMT
Sovereign was unable to just fly up to the Citadel and LOL his way to victory you know. He WOULD have gotten clobbered by the entire armed forces of the Citadel, and the Destiny Ascension if he tried to just go check the Citadel all by himself, with no Geth support. Sovereign was arrogant but not pants on head retarded. He has no way to examine the Citadel without directly interfacing with it, and if he just flew in and tried it himself, he would have been blown away without any Geth to distract the many many ships that are stationed at the Citadel at all times.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 19:52:09 GMT
Why? You don't have to use it. Anyway, I agree with the sentiment that Bioware needs to look deeply at the criticism, because they have an unfortunate history of doing a complete 180° when faced with criticism about a topic; nuking it rather than trying to improve it. It would be funny if it wasn't so annoying x_x because i do not see the point in a SP game. Particularly if you do not have to do it. In a MMO it's a way to earn and you can split the chores doing the parts you don't mind. I love gathering, I don't understand crafting, the endless lists of schematics drive me bonkers. But without a market, there is no way for me to sell stuff and buy stuff. I like the ME2 way of doing it. Upgrade you gear, not craft it. Bloated inventories are not my cup of tea, and I prefer to take my gear off the dead bodies of epic enemies I have defeated. If there is crafting, let it be cosmetic stuff like furniture or changing the look of the gear.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2017 19:53:40 GMT
Never take away my crafting! Min - maxing is my drug, and i want it to be in every RPG. I still want a system that means people can skip that part if they are not Interested, and ME:A does this in a very good way.
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Post by Nashimura on Mar 28, 2017 20:15:16 GMT
You need to be more careful with your use of the word "we"
1. Clunky crafting User Interface/Menus criticism does NOT mean we want crafting gone or see it dumbed down.
Uhh... yeah, id rather see it gone.
2. Open World busy-work critisicm does NOT mean we want to go back to brown, linear, claustrophobic corridors from ME2.
I want linear levels, bigger levels... but still linear... no open worlds.
4. Slow galaxy map travelling and slow mining/scanning/minerals gathering does NOT mean we want to see the whole thing dumbed down or removed.
Scanning and mining can go... i want it gone, gone gone gone... it's boring pointless busy work, Bioware need to concentrate on writing, not this shite.
5. Economy criticism does NOT mean we want the economy gone compley, like you did in ME2. We want it better balanced and improved, not removed or dumbed down.
I honestly don't care either way...
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 28, 2017 20:22:16 GMT
Sovereign was unable to just fly up to the Citadel and LOL his way to victory you know. He WOULD have gotten clobbered by the entire armed forces of the Citadel, and the Destiny Ascension if he tried to just go check the Citadel all by himself, with no Geth support. Sovereign was arrogant but not pants on head retarded. He has no way to examine the Citadel without directly interfacing with it, and if he just flew in and tried it himself, he would have been blown away without any Geth to distract the many many ships that are stationed at the Citadel at all times. Actually, Sovereign really was able to just bumrush the Citadel with a complement of geth ships(which it had from the start) if it wanted. The conduit wasn't really necessary beyond figuring out the weak point that led to the entire trap being disabled. Ironically, assaulting Eden Prime was the start of its downfall. It had the element of surprise on its side. No one was expecting a massive assault, and Sovereign was more than capable of taking out multiple ships without sustaining any real damage. What did it in was it leaving itself vulnerable through Hopper Saren. If not for that, it would had held its own while it continued its work to restart the relay, but we needed a bossfight, and Shepard can't fight the reaper directly. Speaking of Saren, assaulting Eden Prime at all would be unnecessary. He's a Spectre. He could have taken it upon himself to simply investigate the beacon without really causing a major stir. As a representative of the Council, he could gather the intel he needs and simply leak it to his reaper overlord. But that would be boring. The biggest offender to me is the lack of an actual secret chamber in the Citadel. Garrus mentions that he's never been to the place the reaper has to access, but it just ends up being in the Council hall where even spacegrandma can walk her varren.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 28, 2017 20:24:36 GMT
Sovereign was unable to just fly up to the Citadel and LOL his way to victory you know. He WOULD have gotten clobbered by the entire armed forces of the Citadel, and the Destiny Ascension if he tried to just go check the Citadel all by himself, with no Geth support. Sovereign was arrogant but not pants on head retarded. He has no way to examine the Citadel without directly interfacing with it, and if he just flew in and tried it himself, he would have been blown away without any Geth to distract the many many ships that are stationed at the Citadel at all times. Actually, Sovereign really was able to just bumrush the Citadel with a complement of geth ships(which it had from the start) if it wanted. The conduit wasn't really necessary beyond figuring out the weak point that led to the entire trap being disabled. Ironically, assaulting Eden Prime was the start of its downfall. It had the element of surprise on its side. No one was expecting a massive assault, and Sovereign was more than capable of taking out multiple ships without sustaining any real damage. What did it in was it leaving itself vulnerable through Hopper Saren. If not for that, it would had held its own while it continued its work to restart the relay, but we needed a bossfight, and Shepard can't fight the reaper directly. Speaking of Saren, assaulting Eden Prime at all would be unnecessary. He's a Spectre. He could have taken it upon himself to simply investigate the beacon without really causing a major stir. As a representative of the Council, he could gather the intel he needs and simply leak it to his reaper overlord. But that would be boring. The biggest offender to me is the lack of an actual secret chamber in the Citadel. Garrus mentions that he's never been to the place the reaper has to access, but it just ends up being in the Council hall where even spacegrandma can walk her varren. Like the Star Child Chamber?
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Post by Camel on Mar 28, 2017 20:25:25 GMT
Post this on twitter, reddit or facebook. Biower doesn't give a damn about old fashioned forums.
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Post by fizzypop on Mar 28, 2017 20:30:20 GMT
You might want to only speak for yourself. I hate crafting in all games, I'd love to see it gone. I don't care for open world, prefer linear games ME2, ME3, DAO, and DA2 are right up my alley. I'd rather the focus be on the story not stuff I don't care about. Open world is incredibly hard to do right. Very few games achieve it I can really only think of 2. If there is no exploring you don't really need the nomad. Though I don't have active complaints about its function I just hate how damn slow it is most of the time (unless you are on predesigned paths which seem to go faster?) especially trying to get around if there are any sort of hills. Of course I can't just rocket myself on top of large structures instead I have to go all the way around a damn mountain of dirt or ice to find a path up to whatever the fuck I need to get access too. I've already quit like a few quests just for this reason alone I hate it. Resource gathering just takes time away from actual gameplay. It just isn't fun.
This isn't to say your opinion isn't important because that's not my point. My point is you can only speak for yourself and those who enjoy your style of play. No matter what we all have to make concessions because at the end of the day there is no way to please everyone. I suspect that there will have to be a few compromises in the future or at least better managing.
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