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Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 29, 2016 1:16:18 GMT
Also, I would sooner pick Refuse than live to have a child with Liara that looks like Liara, much less cure the genophage (I actually did cure it, anyway, but sabotage is admittedly the wiser decision). Weird, I don't understand this antipathy for Asari children. It's a thread about a bioweapon that kills babies. You have to expect some to and fro.
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Post by HYR on Aug 29, 2016 1:27:57 GMT
Also, I would sooner pick Refuse than live to have a child with Liara that looks like Liara, much less cure the genophage (I actually did cure it, anyway, but sabotage is admittedly the wiser decision). Weird, I don't understand this antipathy for Asari children. Well I can suspend disbelief and be okay with the asari, cliched fan-wanking though they are. It's really Liara that earns my ire. I don't care for children either, so a child with Liara's face is just akh.
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Post by yan on Aug 29, 2016 2:28:23 GMT
Well, this kid is kind creepy, but thats because Liara is creepy =p I always imagine Liara using his broker's resources to "take care" of Shepard......with this face in frount of the monitors Back to Krogans, I guess the eggs information about their reproduction is the right one. Otherwise, the genophase is equal to kill a fly with a atomic bomb.
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Post by straykat on Aug 29, 2016 4:12:40 GMT
I really hate thinking about the clutch angle. Just makes me want to sabotage if I dwell on it. The only reason I cure really is because Bioware wrote it better.
Turtles, for example, have a low survival rate. 1 in a thousand survives. This is normal.
And Krogan don't have the harsh predators at birth like that. It's like the genophage is just replicating a normal process. Without it, they're monstrous.
edit: And turtles aren't predators either. Or part Dinosaur, who carries shotguns and nukes. To call people heartless for being cautious about that is silly.
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Post by opuspace on Aug 29, 2016 4:45:35 GMT
ME2 had a unique take on the genophage. When we spoke to Wrex, he was establishing a government that was considered unheard of amongst Krogan. He was rallying clans, getting females to coordinate with them. Everyone liked his policies because they stopped bloodshed that'd normally happen. Wrex was making serious progress. And it was happening because they had no choice but to listen to him. They had to cooperate because they couldn't ignore Wrex by breeding enough members to drown enemies under. It was tragic for sure, a father was heartbroken that he couldn't spend enough time with his son. But it wasn't because of the genophage itself. It was because the krogan made things too dangerous for females to trust males. The Krogan could have had families had their culture valued cooperation more than conflict. The genophage didn't change much in their beliefs. They needed to change those beliefs themselves. It got really uncomfortable thinking about how fast Krogan can overpopulate. There's a planet with a codex on how it had a fragile ecosystem that went downhill when Krogan settled it as a colony world but had no idea how to keep it stable. They overfished it, used up viable land and by the end, only they and vorcha could manage any kind of existence on it. Wrex's own comments on needing up to three planets as a starter package was alarming. They'll be awhile, but they need a different approach to settling their civilization. Bakara gives me hope they'll keep that in mind. I'm more surprised that the Salarians simply didn't drop a sterilization bomb on them should Shep let Mordin cure the genophage.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 29, 2016 8:18:24 GMT
I really hate thinking about the clutch angle. Just makes me want to sabotage if I dwell on it. The only reason I cure really is because Bioware wrote it better. Turtles, for example, have a low survival rate. 1 in a thousand survives. This is normal. And Krogan don't have the harsh predators at birth like that. It's like the genophage is just replicating a normal process. Without it, they're monstrous. edit: And turtles aren't predators either. Or part Dinosaur, who carries shotguns and nukes. To call people heartless for being cautious about that is silly. All i get from this post, is that you're perfectly happy to kill babies if someone can set up scenario in which its justified. Most normal people would draw the line well before infecting the entire species with a disease that kills their children. In fact many people would be open to the idea of at least exploring other options first. The solution was the most extreme one that they could come up with. So we can't say what the Krogan would do with their nukes. Most likely go back to shooting them at each other. (And your indifference to dead baby turtles is hardly a glowing endorsement.)
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Post by straykat on Aug 29, 2016 9:00:46 GMT
I really hate thinking about the clutch angle. Just makes me want to sabotage if I dwell on it. The only reason I cure really is because Bioware wrote it better. Turtles, for example, have a low survival rate. 1 in a thousand survives. This is normal. And Krogan don't have the harsh predators at birth like that. It's like the genophage is just replicating a normal process. Without it, they're monstrous. edit: And turtles aren't predators either. Or part Dinosaur, who carries shotguns and nukes. To call people heartless for being cautious about that is silly. All i get from this post, is that you're perfectly happy to kill babies if someone can set up scenario in which its justified. Most normal people would draw the line well before infecting the entire species with a disease that kills their children. In fact many people would be open to the idea of at least exploring other options first. The solution was the most extreme one that they could come up with. So we can't say what the Krogan would do with their nukes. Most likely go back to shooting them at each other. (And your indifference to dead baby turtles is hardly a glowing endorsement.) They are not babies. They are massive clutches of babies, who grow into bipedal mini dinosaurs with nukes and shotguns. Who kill each other as much as the genophage. In addition to that, they're so stupid that even Wrex admits they don't even have the ability to colonize and behave properly. There seems to be little to no scientific or agricultural aspect to their civilization. And the last time they went rampant, they literally ate Salarian civilians for fun. Not to mention dropped asteroids on turian planets, making them uninhabitable, with death tolls in the millions. You're the only one not considering the options. It seems like everything is black and white to you. I'm the one that has cured it --- but I still know how silly it is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2016 9:26:14 GMT
The biggest problem with the Krogan is how they were written. A species that lives incredibly long and can have up to 1000 children at a time? That's not just war like, they wouldn't even make it as far as developing nukes to destroy their own planet because they'd have overrun the place long before that. It's simply not a model that's sustainable for a species. Not even on a galactic scale. They'll just keep overrunning any planets they have. I really hate thinking about the clutch angle. Just makes me want to sabotage if I dwell on it. The only reason I cure really is because Bioware wrote it better. Turtles, for example, have a low survival rate. 1 in a thousand survives. This is normal. And Krogan don't have the harsh predators at birth like that. It's like the genophage is just replicating a normal process. Without it, they're monstrous. Wait....but didn't they evolve like that because Tuchanka had such harsh predators and wildlife? They needed huge clutches because the environment would kill most of the babies and only one or two would survive. Then when the Salarians uplifted them evolution didn't have time to catch up and reduce the clutch numbers naturally. The wars the Krogan then had were now supplied with guns and nukes, and they destroyed their own planet. This also destroyed the wildlife and animals that preyed on their young, so suddenly far more would survive. Many would then be killed by their own in fighting, but it was still a threat. Hence the genophage, bringing back the balance the Krogan had evolved to have, and would have continued to have, if not for the interference of others. Am I wrong about that? Thought that was basically what the codex said.
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Post by straykat on Aug 29, 2016 9:53:15 GMT
You've probably brushed up more than me.
But it would be odd if they developed this way without any challenge whatsoever. Doesn't make sense.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 29, 2016 10:29:18 GMT
Am I wrong about that? Thought that was basically what the codex said. Yes, that is approximately what the historical accounts say. That means, the genophage is actually conducive to survival of the species. Why? Because species don't usually evolve to have fewer children. Unless cultural and technological factors intervene, they'll continue to have as many children as possible, until there's a such a drastic overpopulation that the resources on which they depend are completely used up, and the species dies out to make space for another one. As for those cultural and technological factors, one must consider that procreation is any species' most powerful biological imperative. It's extremely hard to keep in check. We humans are certainly not doing that on a global scale, though given that we have the technology and it's not really expensive by western standards, the grossly unfair distribution of wealth may be the most contributing factor to Earth's increasing overpopulation. Even so, if humans had the same fertility as pre-genophage krogan, we'd have become extinct long since. That the same didn't happen to the krogan is only because of their extreme hardiness, that made it possible to survive in the wasteland into which they had turned their planet.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 29, 2016 11:39:35 GMT
All i get from this post, is that you're perfectly happy to kill babies if someone can set up scenario in which its justified. Most normal people would draw the line well before infecting the entire species with a disease that kills their children. In fact many people would be open to the idea of at least exploring other options first. The solution was the most extreme one that they could come up with. So we can't say what the Krogan would do with their nukes. Most likely go back to shooting them at each other. (And your indifference to dead baby turtles is hardly a glowing endorsement.) They are not babies. They are massive clutches of babies, who grow into bipedal mini dinosaurs with nukes and shotguns. Who kill each other as much as the genophage. In addition to that, they're so stupid that even Wrex admits they don't even have the ability to colonize and behave properly. There seems to be little to no scientific or agricultural aspect to their civilization. And the last time they went rampant, they literally ate Salarian civilians for fun. Not to mention dropped asteroids on turian planets, making them uninhabitable, with death tolls in the millions. You're the only one not considering the options. It seems like everything is black and white to you. I'm the one that has cured it --- but I still know how silly it is. Not babies. Clutches of babies, thats worse. As for the rest of it i'll go to what i said earlier. Nobody has ever explained why this is a bad thing. A galaxy minus the Salarians might be a good thing considering what theyre doing with the Yagh and the Varren. (And the fact theyre trying to blackmail the alliance in the middle of a reaper war.) And letting the Turians wander around giving people the Genophage isn't a great idea either. Humanity is probably lucky it's tailored to Krogan or the first contact war might not have ended so well. It might not have even happened if the Genophage hadn't been deployed. Shepard could have had a trillion Krogan to fight the Geth coz why not? Fighting Reapers and Geth and Krogan clones sounds fun if you're a Krogan. The Reapers clearly want the Genophage any guarantee it wasnt engineered with reaper tech?
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Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 29, 2016 11:44:05 GMT
Am I wrong about that? Thought that was basically what the codex said. Yes, that is approximately what the historical accounts say. That means, the genophage is actually conducive to survival of the species. Why? Because species don't usually evolve to have fewer children. Unless cultural and technological factors intervene, they'll continue to have as many children as possible, until there's a such a drastic overpopulation that the resources on which they depend are completely used up, and the species dies out to make space for another one. As for those cultural and technological factors, one must consider that procreation is any species' most powerful biological imperative. It's extremely hard to keep in check. We humans are certainly not doing that on a global scale, though given that we have the technology and it's not really expensive by western standards, the grossly unfair distribution of wealth may be the most contributing factor to Earth's increasing overpopulation. Even so, if humans had the same fertility as pre-genophage krogan, we'd have become extinct long since. That the same didn't happen to the krogan is only because of their extreme hardiness, that made it possible to survive in the wasteland into which they had turned their planet. What this doesn't take into account is that they kill each other in place of predators now. You dob't need a Genophage, you need to leave the Krogan to their own devices.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 29, 2016 15:06:35 GMT
Wrex was completely happy to melt the last surviving Rachni queen with acid based on the actions of her ancestors. I see no reason why the current Krogan deserve a cure, especially based on the actions of their ancestors.
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Post by HYR on Aug 29, 2016 16:24:02 GMT
Wrex was completely happy to melt the last surviving Rachni queen with acid based on the actions of her ancestors. I see no reason why the current Krogan deserve a cure, especially based on the actions of their ancestors. I wish you could stick this argument in his face when he's bitter about you saving the RQ in ME3. Well I actually killed the 'Queen in ME3, considering the circumstances we found her in, but that's beside the point.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 29, 2016 16:31:49 GMT
When Wrex says "our planet is rubble. We need a better place to live , I wanted Shepard to tell him to clean up and rebuild Tuchanka first.
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Post by Vortex13 on Aug 29, 2016 17:30:00 GMT
Wrex was completely happy to melt the last surviving Rachni queen with acid based on the actions of her ancestors. I see no reason why the current Krogan deserve a cure, especially based on the actions of their ancestors. I wish you could stick this argument in his face when he's bitter about you saving the RQ in ME3. Well I actually killed the 'Queen in ME3, considering the circumstances we found her in, but that's beside the point. And the Queen in ME 3, provided you spared her in ME 1, is far more reasonable and realistic about her situation in light of a massive galaxy-wide invasion than Wrex is. The queen will understand the circumstances and will accept the choice of Shepard to leave her, so as not to jeopardize the fight of the other species of the galaxy. Wrex is perfectly willing to let everyone in the the entire cycle perish unless he gets everything he wants up front. What's more, if the player spares the Rachni a second time, they immediately set out to start aiding the allied forces in anyway they can; in this case working on the Crucible. The Queen isn't standing there demanding restitutions for past wrongs. Plus, we see that newly born Rachni are perfectly adept at working on a project that even the galaxy's greatest minds are having trouble with. What good are newly born Krogan to the war effort? Given the choice between a Krogan and a Rachni baby, I'll pick the one that can actually contribute to society within moments of hatching.
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Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 30, 2016 2:15:30 GMT
Im thoroughly disappointed in you all for not believing in the Krogan.
Sometimes i feel like im the only one who wants them to achieve their goals and live their dreams.
*Sips Ryncol*
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Post by Obadiah on Aug 30, 2016 2:28:47 GMT
Heartless monster is heartless.
The whole rationale for maintaining the Genophage was ridiculous anyway. 1) There are enough examples of Krogan who aren't crazy warmongers to know that its not a foregone conclusion that they will attack if their numbers increase. Even Wreave seemed pretty sane to me when I dealt with him. That whole judgement of their character was clearly a stereotype that we're meant to discover is just wrong. 2) They've already seen what the galaxy will do to them if they do attack, that should be plenty of a deterrence. 3) The way to deal with Krogan if they do become warlike is the same way you deal with any other belligerent state actor, sanctions, deny them technology, and attack their war-making infrastructure, not attack their unborn children who have nothing to do with their parent's behavior. 4) I don't see how an outright betrayal on this level is going to help the Krogan be less belligerent when the Genophage is overcome or outright cured (which has basically already happened twice).
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Post by straykat on Aug 30, 2016 2:45:09 GMT
I think killing the rachni is a bit more heartless. The krogan don't even have a good excuse. And Wreav in particular doesn't even have enough composure to at least conceal his ambitions. He outright says what he's going to do. I can't blame people for not making a Giant Leap of Faith there. He's stupid. Like literally stupid.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 30, 2016 3:30:20 GMT
As I said above with Wrex wanting to move to another planet. I would tell him to stuff it. Curing the genophage was the deal. Not relocating his species. If his doesn't like it, tough luck. If he wants a planet to live on, he needs to fix the planet he's on. Of course if they made any effort to rebuild it after they destroyed it, he may not of said that comment. I don't care. I sabotage the genophage because I want to stop the reapers no matter what. If the reapers win, who cares if the genophage was cured or sabotaged.
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Post by Ieldra on Aug 30, 2016 9:18:46 GMT
Im thoroughly disappointed in you all for not believing in the Krogan. Sometimes i feel like im the only one who wants them to achieve their goals and live their dreams. *Sips Ryncol* If it's any consolation, the genophage was cured in 90% of all playthroughs, according to Bioware's telemetry. Just shows that the majority is head-in-the-clouds naive of course, or lets sentimentality drive their decisions.
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Post by straykat on Aug 30, 2016 9:23:52 GMT
Im thoroughly disappointed in you all for not believing in the Krogan. Sometimes i feel like im the only one who wants them to achieve their goals and live their dreams. *Sips Ryncol* If it's any consolation, the genophage was cured in 90% of all playthroughs, according to Bioware's telemetry. Just shows that the majority is head-in-the-clouds naive of course, or lets sentimentality drive their decisions. Out of curiosity, I wonder what your concerns are with it. Since (I just noticed) you're a Synthesis fan. To me, that's like a cloak that covers up everything. Control to some extent too. I think it's Destroyers who really have to worry about the effects more. Destroy is the choice of Chaos. In more ways than one.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 9:24:38 GMT
The whole rationale for maintaining the Genophage was ridiculous anyway. 1) There are enough examples of Krogan who aren't crazy warmongers to know that its not a foregone conclusion that they will attack if their numbers increase. Even Wreave seemed pretty sane to me when I dealt with him. That whole judgement of their character was clearly a stereotype that we're meant to discover is just wrong. 2) They've already seen what the galaxy will do to them if they do attack, that should be plenty of a deterrence. 3) The way to deal with Krogan if they do become warlike is the same way you deal with any other belligerent state actor, sanctions, deny them technology, and attack their war-making infrastructure, not attack their unborn children who have nothing to do with their parent's behavior. 4) I don't see how an outright betrayal on this level is going to help the Krogan be less belligerent when the Genophage is overcome or outright cured (which has basically already happened twice). Wut?? I have to disagree here.... 1) So what about when you're on Tuchanka and the clans all want to put Mordin on a kebab skewer? Wrex and Eve are the only reasonable ones you ever meet! Wreav is NOT sane by any means. 2)The galaxy couldn't handle them last time when they attacked and started forcibly taking worlds from other races. That's why they had to invent the Genophage. What makes you think they can suddenly deal with them now? 3)Fair enough, but would they even care? 4)They won't be, but there will be a few belligerent Krogan as opposed to a trillion of them. Seriously, for realsies here, curing the Genophage is stupid and only something done by bleeding heart paragons, or those who either don't care, or don't know the history and the codexes. It's a choice made out of ignorance for the horrendous repercussions. I've cured it twice with 2 Sheps, but my canon would never even consider it. Especially when someone who is supposed to be her friend is holding a gun to her head whilst Earth burns. Wrex laughs in Shep's face and doesn't give a damn, demanding something that at any other time would have taken months to achieve. It's a dick move on Wrex's part, and he can go fuck himself quite frankly. Cure the genophage, and a few years after the Reapers are gone and everyone is trying to rebuild, you'll have a trillion Krogan invading other species's worlds. It's ridiculous. Modifying the genophage to double the amount of live Krogan births to help the species? Yep, I'd do that willingly. But curing it with a gun to head? HELL NO.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 9:27:53 GMT
Just shows that the majority is head-in-the-clouds naive of course, or lets sentimentality drive their decisions.
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Post by straykat on Aug 30, 2016 9:33:27 GMT
you gotta admit, they wrote it better. as far as dramatic pacing goes
edit: it's also hard to "fail" at least at first glance, on appearances. they just paint a rosy picture.
But with the Geth/Quarian choice, it's more complicated.
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