Not curing the Genophage: The reason you're a heartless monster.

Yes but you're asduming that will happen again based off Wrex being arrogant to the Primarch. It's such a stretch that it's hard to find believable.  Particularly with Wrex. Wreave i can't excuse he's genuinely bloodthirsty. 

See i dont buy into the idea you need the Salarians in any capacity at all and in the end that actually winds up being the case.

The Dalatrasses own reasoning is that she wants the Genophage to endure simply because she does her argument again revolves around the logic that genocide prevents genocide. Following that then if genocide is abhorrent the genophage itself is therefore abhorrent. 

And of course the argument comes down to how you value the life of an infant. There is simply no getting around that point. Emotional arguments are now a part of the conversation because it's those emotions, the ones that drive us to nurture and care for the young that define us as individuals. 

So if we're to say someone is a monster. Shouldn't we be able to say why? It's not enough to contest the idea but the motivation behind it. 

Well ignoring the pisspoor EMS game mechanics, in-universe, the salarian offer is very valuable indeed and Shepard isn't pre-cognizant, so he doesn't know the Crucible can be finished and thus he shouldn't be in any position to turn down help and resources. As for the Dalatrass' reasons they are irrelevant. We're not responsible (or indeed debating) her reasoning, we're debating our own via the choice we can make.


Sigh... fine, if there's no getting off this subject and you just want to talk babies, go back to my point: which is worse, an infant not living at all and never experiencing pain and suffering or living a short life of nothing but pain and suffering ending in death? I submit that preventing suffering is the more merciful than not preventing suffering and with the genophage in place 999 fewer children are suffering. Therefore keeping the genophage is the more merciful option.

As i said to crutchcricket the children are now part of the conversation. Removing them from it is removing context.

Its an attempt to limit their impact on the debate when they are at its core.

The justification makes the act no less monstrous.

Where the real killer of the Krogan population is themselves.

It's pretty ridiculous that this is anyone else's fault really.


"Waaaah. We're dying off because we can't have a thousand kids and wipe out all of your planets with impunity. Waaah."

Bah, to hell with feelgood dramatic pacing. This thread has soured me on curing it again.

See.

"I don't like threads so im killing the Krogans children."

Monster.




Ok let's, let this thing die now.

Just wanted to refute the statement that Salarians are not needed in any capacity. They're needed to reverse the genophage after all, right? We hear Wrex's scientist complain about being forced to do agricultural research because he believed they could just buy it from Salarians.
"It's not like they can do worse to us, right? Wait, don't answer that."
After all, if they just wanted to ensure the death of the entire krogan race, why did Mordin have to be so careful adjusting the fertility rate instead of flat out sterilization? He did say it'd be far easier to come up with one than adjusting the birth rate. And before anyone says that the genophage=sterilization, even Wrex mentioned trying to get his kin to focus on breeding. What's the point if everyone was completely, utterly sterile?

As for the assumption of someone's motives, isn't that dangerous to misrepresent it so lopsidedly under a moral simplification? What if the genophage is cured but with Wreav in charge and Bakara is dead? Is it still right to cure the genophage if it subjects krogan children to a life of becoming child soldiers under a tyrant?

The Dalatrass still had to release Bakara into Wrex and Shepard's custody. It is still a contribution albeit a reluctant one. There is also still the matter of their other research that Krogan rely on like the Shroud, agricultural advancements, etc. So Salarians cannot be dismissed as easily as that.
And if we kill Wreav, who's next? Is the replacement any better? Will that Krogan learn his lesson and not exploit his kids as cannon fodder for his wars?
Your analogy is...actually I'm not sure how it fits exactly. I was thinking that the Krogan on Tuchanka are more like San Pedro prison, where no guards are within it because it's so dangerous that they can only keep prisoners from leaving and outsiders from going in (without bribes and registration). That prison has become a society in of itself, a city of criminals with jobs and families where those elected solve disputes with stabbing. Now, hypothetically, let's say San Pedro is in danger of overpopulation but no one can be let out because it'll cause a trickle effect where families don't want to be split up. No one's going in to tell them to stop having sex (because good luck enforcing that) but if they had birth control, then they can keep their numbers stable. If they don't, there will be street wars breaking out for valuable space and kids that are already there have no place to escape. So say some doctors agree to implant IUD's to prevent unplanned pregnancies but they're getting blocked by pro life fundamentalists who believe contraception is morally bankrupt and that every life is precious because it's a baby that they're murdering (nevermind that no baby would be suffering anyway because they won't develop that far). Meanwhile, as the two sides bicker, more babies are being born, inmates are getting edgy because supplies for their family are strained but society cannot let them out. Something has to change.
1. Either San Pedro inmates need to change their behavior to a degree where they can be trusted to function and interact with the rest of the world so that they can live amongst us again or...
2. They need to keep their city within a city stable enough to sustain the population. If that requires birth control, so be it.
If violent inmates were released onto the rest of society just because overcrowding was allowed for the sake of hypothetical infants that could be born, any deaths that result from the actions of those inmates would be on the heads of those who did not take into account the consequences of such an action for the sake of a peaceful conscious.

Err... have you seen the Wrongthink thread, around the 40s pages? Believe me there's debate about it, and that's RL stuff.

Interesting idea. But is it though? I think that depends on how krogan are actually born. If females lay a thousand eggs and 999 die, that's not an increase in boneage. I can't imagine they give birth to 1000 young, though we do seem to have conflicting information on the matter. I mean either way, it could be if they keep trying because they feel they need 999 more babies- but that's again a problem with krogan mentality, not with the genophage. The genophage is supposed to keep things stable. But you can't stabilize what won't be stabilized. If you set a fertility rate for a species with x resources, little disease and no natural predators but then they insist on killing each other off or trying to circumvent said rate by just trying to procreate more often, is it still your fault?

Well, historically, children in video games do tend to incite feelings of genocide in players. Sure you want to keep going with this?

Also, still haven't replied to my point I see.

lolwat

So Mordin/Padok working for months on Sur'Kesh in an STG facility was what, exactly? That's like me working at Langley and then going, "Nope the US government never did anything for me, nope."

Then there's the fact that you can technically develop the cure without Maelon's data. Sure Bakara will die. But the krogan will be cured regardless.

So... no.

Isn't it?

The Genophage was an act of desperation executed at a desperate time as humanely as possible. That desperate time has now long passed.

Right now, this "stability" argument has been pretty much rejected by the Krogan, who would rather just not have a bunch of stillborns, and would look to deal with their population on their own. So, as an unwanted imposed solution from the Council, their reaction and behavior is the responsibility of the Council as much as themselves.

I'm not sure where the "can't stabilize what won't be stabalized" argument comes from. There are a lot of ways the Krogan population could be stabalized within an ecosystem without our intervention. Starvation due to lack of resources is the obvious one. The main argument against maintaining the Genophage for stability though is that the Genophage will be overcome (as it was when Mordin deployed the update) and the Krogan will have to deal with there fertility rate anyway. If the Genophage is so great, let them ask for it.

Introducing the Genophage was the right decision at the time. Curing it was the right decision at the time.

...and reintroducing it later will probably be the right decision at the time.

The Krogan rejection of the argument is the part where they say, hey, we don't want this Genophage.

In fact the effect of the deterence is usually taken into account when coming up with some defensive measure. You can liken the Genophage to plate glass, or rigging the car with as strong electric shock. If your deterence maims or kills someone then you can be held responsible, doesn't matter if they punched the window.

But besides that I think you can actually dismiss the "stability" argument pretty easily by simply saying that wasn't the original purpose of the Genophage, and that generally isn't the business of the Council to forcibly stabalize the population of a self-destructive species, unless they ask for that assistance, or are some sort of extreme repeat threat. Right now Genophage is being maintained basically because it is the status quo, and people, the non-Krogans anyway, just don't want to change it.

PS: I wonder if some people thought the Catalyst was lying because their Shepard lied to the Krogan? The parallels are disturbing...