inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 30, 2016 9:37:25 GMT
Im thoroughly disappointed in you all for not believing in the Krogan. Sometimes i feel like im the only one who wants them to achieve their goals and live their dreams. *Sips Ryncol* Just shows that the majority is head-in-the-clouds naive of course, or lets sentimentality drive their decisions. Weak little fleshy things. Somebody pointed out you're a synthesis fan. It's how I don't cure the genophage as well. You've impeccable taste.
|
|
inherit
Mad Hermit
870
0
Aug 11, 2016 16:33:09 GMT
2,898
straykat
2,503
Aug 10, 2016 11:00:20 GMT
August 2016
straykat
|
Post by straykat on Aug 30, 2016 9:40:31 GMT
Just shows that the majority is head-in-the-clouds naive of course, or lets sentimentality drive their decisions. Weak little fleshy things. Somebody pointed out you're a synthesis fan. It's how I don't cure the genophage as well. You've impeccable taste. Wait, what? You don't cure it? I'm so confused now.
|
|
inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 30, 2016 9:44:26 GMT
Weak little fleshy things. Somebody pointed out you're a synthesis fan. It's how I don't cure the genophage as well. You've impeccable taste. Wait, what? You don't cure it? I'm so confused now. I gave the Krogan magic powers to develop space medicine once or twice, with different characters.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
10,585
Ieldra
4,907
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Aug 30, 2016 11:27:06 GMT
Out of curiosity, I wonder what your concerns are with it. Since (I just noticed) you're a Synthesis fan. To me, that's like a cloak that covers up everything. Control to some extent too. I think it's Destroyers who really have to worry about the effects more. Destroy is the choice of Chaos. In more ways than one. My concern is that the majority of the krogan have shown no interest in controlling their fertility once the genophage is cured. I also see the genophage not so much as a bioweapon but rather a necessary adaptation that would, albeit in a less drastic form, have become necessary for the krogan at some time anyway if they were to survive. Basically, if you had the krogan at their natural fertility and with the attitudes expressed by anyone but Bakara *without* a genophage, the only feasible solution would be genocide. The krogan of the krogan rebellion times were like locusts. Without the genophage, galactic civilization would've had to eradicate them. As for Synthesis, I don't really like how it appears to make sabotaging the cure pointless, but if Synthesis gives people more control over their biology, which I think it does, then the scenario can be interpreted to make sense: the krogan can now control their fertility on a species level, but they start with the low levels of their genophage'd biology as the default, *and* they have the means to control it on a more fundamental level. I don't think the krogan, as a rule, actively want 1000 children per female, they just want the children that get conceived to have better chances of surviving. If the genophage is cured, then they get back to 1000 children per female as the default and they'd have to implement active measures to get it down to sustainable levels, which I wouldn't trust them to be able to do, but if Synthesis gives them control and they have to implement active measures to change the rate of conception and get the survival rate changed *up* to sustainable levels from the genophage defaults, I can see a much higher probability for a reasonably good outcome. In addition, it may lead to a culture change since the krogan would have to figure this out on their own. So, maybe this is a stretch, but since it's a non-optional part of the scenario, I must accommodate it somehow. Oh, and BTW: people have often said they trust Bakara. Had I had the option to give her a magic box to set the parameters of krogan natural fertility in the genophage plot, I would've probably done it. Resetting krogan fertility to that of the pre-genophage times globally? No way.
|
|
inherit
∯ Alien Wizard
729
0
10,585
Ieldra
4,907
August 2016
ieldra
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
25190
6519
|
Post by Ieldra on Aug 30, 2016 11:45:12 GMT
And the Queen in ME 3, provided you spared her in ME 1, is far more reasonable and realistic about her situation in light of a massive galaxy-wide invasion than Wrex is. The queen will understand the circumstances and will accept the choice of Shepard to leave her, so as not to jeopardize the fight of the other species of the galaxy. Wrex is perfectly willing to let everyone in the the entire cycle perish unless he gets everything he wants up front. What's more, if the player spares the Rachni a second time, they immediately set out to start aiding the allied forces in anyway they can; in this case working on the Crucible. The Queen isn't standing there demanding restitutions for past wrongs. Indeed, that's why I usually free the queen in ME3 after having done the same in ME1. Also, she's the last of her kind *and* everything bad she did in the past was done because of Reaper indoctrination. You can't say the same of the krogan. Both the Rachni and the krogan deserve a second chance, but I perceive the second-chance option the game provides for the Rachni as drastically less risky than the one it provides for the krogan.
|
|
Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
inherit
658
0
Nov 25, 2024 13:02:34 GMT
3,624
Obadiah
2,677
August 2016
obadiah
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Obadaya
ObadiahPearce
|
Post by Obadiah on Aug 30, 2016 12:25:32 GMT
As an aside, this is yet another reason the Decision Chamber ending was appropriate.
With the Genophage we have a situation were a species' behavior, the Krogan's behavior, has been judged by another group, the Council, to lead to a specific outcome detrimental to all (or most, but from the general tone of the characterization of Krogan ingame, the ME inhabitants seem to think Krogan overlords will just trash the place, ie destruction of civilization). The Council has inflicted what the Krogan perceive is an ongoing torture/horror/(insert negative description here) to stop this by affecting the fertility of the species and viability of offspring. With the "viability of offspring" affected, basically the Council is attacking Krogan civilians. I understand desperate circumstances call for desperate measures, but 1000+ years after the Krogan war on the galaxy is far removed from desperate.
Then we discover that someone else has judged all organic life's behavior to lead to a specific detrimental outcome, and they have to inflict this horror of the Reaper cycle on us, but it's really a "cleansing fire", to keep life in check. When this is explained to us, a bunch of us do not "understand". We're at least 37 million years removed from the original situation that led to the decision to start the cycle.
#plotconsistencytroll #recurringthemetroll
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Nov 26, 2024 11:18:05 GMT
3,228
Vortex13
2,202
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on Aug 30, 2016 12:48:47 GMT
There is a lot of focus on what the Genophage does to the Krogan and how horrible it is for them, but the narrative likes to conveniently skip over the actions the Krogan committed that lead up to the Genophage being deployed:
Dropping asteroids on Turian garden worlds, killing untold numbers of Turian children.
Complete ecological devastation of any planets they held, to the point of being practically unlivable.
The wanton slaughter and cannibalization of other sentient species for sport.
What's more, the majority of the current Krogan population alive now was around during the time of the Rebellions, or at the very least was one generation removed from it. In essence, if the Genophage is a prison sentence, then a good portion of the people living on Tuchunka are still serving out the jail time they earned for themselves.
|
|
inherit
Psi-Cop
38
0
Feb 21, 2019 15:55:45 GMT
10,231
CrutchCricket
The Emperor Daft Serious
4,577
August 2016
crutchcricket
CrutchCricket
Mass Effect Trilogy
|
Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 30, 2016 15:29:03 GMT
2)The galaxy couldn't handle them last time when they attacked and started forcibly taking worlds from other races. That's why they had to invent the Genophage. What makes you think they can suddenly deal with them now? Because they have fuck all in terms of ships and infrastructure. Sorry, but your argument doesn't fly much better than his did. Real isn't "omg Krogan Rebellions 2.0". Real is the following: -Tuchanka is a post-nuclear wasteland with almost zero unsable infrastructure, very few resources, and no sign of arable land to speak of. -the krogan are either psychologically broken as a species in the usual meaning of the phrase or short-sighted warmongering idiots, who if given the chance would lash out, but not in an organized planned way that's a threat to anybody. -the krogan have no real scientists, engineers and other researchers who might be able to turn their situation around on a large scale. -the krogan have no ships. See EDI's discussion on the logistics of getting the krogan to Palaven. Now as to the rest of the galaxy: -we just came out the other side of a galactic war and are in no mood to take more shit. -everyone has their own problems to deal with and a lot of rebuilding to do. -therefore no one is going to be willing to give the krogan much of anything, let alone weapons and ships to start their shenanigans again. - on top of it all, despite what some moments in the trilogy would have you believe, the majority of people who survive are not drooling idiots. History repeating itself is something they're going to want to avoid. -optional: depending on what you chose in the ending there's plenty of bigger fish including: Leviathans, geth, ControlShep or Reapers (synthesis) tl;dr the krogan have nothing and nobody's going to do anything to change that. The most we stand in danger of is thousands of krogan attacking us with harsh language. No, what the cure actually does, is take the training wheels off the krogan. No more uplifting, no more population control. Just them and nature. They either learn to adapt, manage their own population and rejoin the galaxy on their own merits, or they go extinct. It's that simple. Keeping the genophage in place may be the nicer option, because without it, you have a better chance of seeing thousands of krogan starve to death (or eat each other) than anything else.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
101
0
Nov 26, 2024 13:38:44 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 26, 2024 13:38:44 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2016 16:14:53 GMT
2)The galaxy couldn't handle them last time when they attacked and started forcibly taking worlds from other races. That's why they had to invent the Genophage. What makes you think they can suddenly deal with them now? Because they have fuck all in terms of ships and infrastructure. Sorry, but your argument doesn't fly much better than his did. Real isn't "omg Krogan Rebellions 2.0". Real is the following: <snip> Valid points, but I'd still never risk it. The numbers the Krogan could produce in a short amount of time, and the massive beef they still have with the Salarians and Turians is still a big problem. What they lack in technology they make up in their pure Krogan-ness. Hence the Turians needing them to fight the Reapers. If they grouped up on other planets (and many Krogan do live off world), they'd be a pain in the ass for everyone, especially if they picked on a battered world that's been hit by the Reapers. They didn't have their own fleet and scientists in the Krogan rebellions did they? And yet they nearly won.
|
|
inherit
Psi-Cop
38
0
Feb 21, 2019 15:55:45 GMT
10,231
CrutchCricket
The Emperor Daft Serious
4,577
August 2016
crutchcricket
CrutchCricket
Mass Effect Trilogy
|
Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 30, 2016 16:28:02 GMT
Valid points, but I'd still never risk it. The numbers the Krogan could produce in a short amount of time, and the massive beef they still have with the Salarians and Turians is still a big problem. What they lack in technology they make up in their pure Krogan-ness. Hence the Turians needing them to fight the Reapers. If they grouped up on other planets (and many Krogan do live off world), they'd be a pain in the ass for everyone, especially if they picked on a battered world that's been hit by the Reapers. They didn't have their own fleet and scientists in the Krogan rebellions did they? And yet they nearly won. No, they were given a fleet. There's a very clear difference between a threat you armed to the point of ridiculousness (because you needed them to fight another over the top threat) and " a bunch of angry homeless lizards who are disgruntled a little". What are they going to do without modern weapons and ships, on any planet they happen to be on? At least two major races working together had difficulty getting a large number of them to the battlefield where they were needed, how are they going to manage that on their own? Yes they can produce thousands of children, but those children still need to grow and be taught how to fight. They're not like rachni where every drone/warrior whatever is almost instantly combat worthy. So all you have is tiny reptiles in some places with rocks and harsh language. Hardly the next big crisis. No, at most they'd be an incovenience, a nuisance in some places. And "inconvenience" is not enough reason to stab them in the back or to keep preventing nature from taking its course, depending on how you want to look at it. Oh and krogan not on Tuchanka at the time- missed out on the cure. Wonder how many of those there are? Actually that may be the answer that pleases everyone. Tuchanka krogan- cured, population spins out of control they starve and die. Krogan not on Tuchanka at the time- still under the genophage, living elsewhere, could still be viable. I admit I prefer the simpler "nature takes its course" approach. Either the krogan manage themselves and thrive or they don't and die. But this may be a good compromise for an alternative.
|
|
inherit
Mad Hermit
870
0
Aug 11, 2016 16:33:09 GMT
2,898
straykat
2,503
Aug 10, 2016 11:00:20 GMT
August 2016
straykat
|
Post by straykat on Aug 30, 2016 17:00:00 GMT
As an aside, this is yet another reason the Decision Chamber ending was appropriate. With the Genophage we have a situation were a species' behavior, the Krogan's behavior, has been judged by another group, the Council, to lead to a specific outcome detrimental to all (or most, but from the general tone of the characterization of Krogan ingame, the ME inhabitants seem to think Krogan overlords will just trash the place, ie destruction of civilization). The Council has inflicted what the Krogan perceive is an ongoing torture/horror/(insert negative description here) to stop this by affecting the fertility of the species and viability of offspring. With the "viability of offspring" affected, basically the Council is attacking Krogan civilians. I understand desperate circumstances call for desperate measures, but 1000+ years after the Krogan war on the galaxy is far removed from desperate. Then we discover that someone else has judged all organic life's behavior to lead to a specific detrimental outcome, and they have to inflict this horror of the Reaper cycle on us, but it's really a "cleansing fire", to keep life in check. When this is explained to us, a bunch of us do not "understand". We're at least 37 million years removed from the original situation that led to the decision to start the cycle. #plotconsistencytroll #recurringthemetroll The difference is Leviathan started it with merely an interest in maintaining their slave population. "Tribute does not come from a dead race." It's a much different world. I'm also not surprised that their slaves got wiped out by synthetic creations.. I doubt they were living up to their potential to fight back to begin with. And then the Catalyst gets built, programmed to think about organics in light of all of this. It's a flawed premise. And it's still trying to impose this premise on organics who don't live anything like the slaves under Leviathan. But anyhow, I didn't really want to talk about the ending. I do think you have a point that the Catalyst and the Council both practice a form of Control.
|
|
inherit
Mad Hermit
870
0
Aug 11, 2016 16:33:09 GMT
2,898
straykat
2,503
Aug 10, 2016 11:00:20 GMT
August 2016
straykat
|
Post by straykat on Aug 30, 2016 17:04:07 GMT
I think if Brian Kindregan had still been on the team, he would have done more with Grunt. I have to use ME2 to paint a picture of it, because ME3 got completely hijacked by Weekes' Mordin angle.
I think you could sabotage the Genophage and still not outright wipe out the Krogan by letting Grunt live. He becomes a template for all future survivors. That was the wish of both Okeer and the male Shaman.
|
|
inherit
376
0
Oct 17, 2016 19:19:36 GMT
3,474
opuspace
2,129
August 2016
opuspace
|
Post by opuspace on Aug 30, 2016 18:39:02 GMT
Im thoroughly disappointed in you all for not believing in the Krogan. Sometimes i feel like im the only one who wants them to achieve their goals and live their dreams. *Sips Ryncol* Hey, I'm happy as peaches that things can work out for the Krogan, that they can have families and be together as they rebuild their lives and civilization. But that's not how they started out in their portrayal. Much as I dislike the idea of punishing someone just because of what their ancestors did, doesn't mean that we should ignore what the descendants are saying now. And the Krogan of today were still too dangerous to other races. The Shadow Broker archives showed Wrex's clan throwing a Salarian into a pit of Varren and a human was strapped to a chair as they tested out a flamethrower on him. Wrex's clan. The most progressive and reasonable one we encounter. ME3 threw out any interesting conflict with the genophage by making the Krogan more like humans in that they were willing to rally under one leader once they got their cure after the war. Things can still change but Andromeda won't be able to explore the ramifications of a cure/no cure state.
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Nov 26, 2024 11:18:05 GMT
3,228
Vortex13
2,202
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on Aug 31, 2016 12:39:55 GMT
You know, for all of their labeling as scary space bugs, the Rachni are actually far better than the Krogan as far as their impact on the rest of the galaxy is concerned. Sure, you had the whole (Leviathan) mind control thing with the Rachni Wars, but consider how much more destructive the Krogan Rebellions were.
There's no mention of the Rachni rendering entire planets uninhabitable via environmental devastation or acts of war. In fact, all of the conquered worlds were able to be reclaimed after the war, only with the exception of the more extreme biospheres that the Rachni preferred. Which even then, those planets were given to the Krogan; who proceeded to ruin them with their excessive industry and out of control population growth. The Rachni didn't drop asteroids on planets, nor did they consume every natural resource on their conquered worlds like a swarm of locusts. In fact, you could say that even in a mind controlled 'kill everyone' state, the Rachni were better caretakers of their holdings than the Krogan have ever been shown to be.
Also, the Rachni have no qualms about self inflicted population control. If a group of soldiers or drones aren't helping the colony, they are euthanized, simple as that. The Rachni regulate their numbers for the task at hand, and they keep those numbers in check. Again, just look at the Rachni invasion of Council Space. A near galactic invasion level fleet of Rachni drones and soldiers, and yet, they somehow managed to not reduce every planet they came across to a barren ecological nightmare.
If that's not enough then just look at their homworld of Suen, sprawling cities utilizing space-age level architecture, and not a sign of self inflicted nuclear holocaust present anywhere. Now compare that with Tuchunka, a barren radioactive hellscape.
|
|
inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 31, 2016 13:11:05 GMT
Im thoroughly disappointed in you all for not believing in the Krogan. Sometimes i feel like im the only one who wants them to achieve their goals and live their dreams. *Sips Ryncol* Hey, I'm happy as peaches that things can work out for the Krogan, that they can have families and be together as they rebuild their lives and civilization. But that's not how they started out in their portrayal. Much as I dislike the idea of punishing someone just because of what their ancestors did, doesn't mean that we should ignore what the descendants are saying now. And the Krogan of today were still too dangerous to other races. The Shadow Broker archives showed Wrex's clan throwing a Salarian into a pit of Varren and a human was strapped to a chair as they tested out a flamethrower on him. Wrex's clan. The most progressive and reasonable one we encounter. ME3 threw out any interesting conflict with the genophage by making the Krogan more like humans in that they were willing to rally under one leader once they got their cure after the war. Things can still change but Andromeda won't be able to explore the ramifications of a cure/no cure state. This is why i don't take the argument seriously. Lets look at it for one moment. Throwing Salarians to Varren = Horrific hate crime. Killing 999 out of 1 thousand infant babies = justifiable homicide. This is the problem with the argument it's a convenient excuse to disregard all other standards set by other races and be a child killer. Because that's what it takes to justify an act this evil, you must first: A) Suspend all effort towards peace. Disregard all other options including methods proven to work. C) Throw away the standards by which you judge the Krogan, when justifying then Genophage within the same sentence. So the argument is as follows: The Krogan committed war crimes, so I murdered all their children. The hypocrisy is barely worth pointing out what is worth pointing out however is the similarity in the catalysts logic......and the argument against curing the genophage. Genocide to prevent genocide is the purest form of catalyst logic. You're all monsters.....
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Nov 26, 2024 11:18:05 GMT
3,228
Vortex13
2,202
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on Aug 31, 2016 13:28:27 GMT
If we are going to talk genocide though, then the Krogan aren't innocent of that either.
Rather than push the Rachni back to Suen and contain them there, the Krogan elected to actively hunt down and kill every last surviving member (that they knew of) of a clearly intelligent, space faring species. The outcome of the Rebellions could very easily have followed a similar course of action, especially considering all the crap that the Krogan pulled during their little war, but the rest of the galaxy elected to suppress and contain them rather than flat out kill them all.
The Genophage might be a genocide from one point of view, but so was the Krogan killing of the Rachni. Plus, at least the Genophage has some merit to it, namely to keep the population in check, the complete scouring of Suen, served no purpose, save to satisfy the Krogans' bloodlust.
EDIT:
Plus, it's not like the Krogan had a great sense of care placed on their own numbers before the Genophage either. Their previous battle tactics literally consisted of sending wave after wave of their own forces at the enemy to drown them in sheer numbers. If anything, the Genophage forced the Krogan to recognize the value of the individual members of their society rather than treating them as disposable bodies to throw into the meat grinder.
|
|
inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 31, 2016 13:44:14 GMT
If we are going to talk genocide though, then the Krogan aren't innocent of that either. Rather than push the Rachni back to Suen and contain them there, the Krogan elected to actively hunt down and kill every last surviving member (that they knew of) of a clearly intelligent, space faring species. The outcome of the Rebellions could very easily have followed a similar course of action, especially considering all the crap that the Krogan pulled during their little war, but the rest of the galaxy elected to suppress and contain them rather than flat out kill them all. The Genophage might be a genocide from one point of view, but so was the Krogan killing of the Rachni. Plus, at least the Genophage has some merit to it, namely to keep the population in check, the complete scouring of Suen, served no purpose, save to satisfy the Krogans' bloodlust. EDIT: Plus, it's not like the Krogan had a great sense of care placed on their own numbers before the Genophage. Their previous battle tactics literally consisted of sending wave after wave of their own forces at the enemy to drown them in sheer numbers. If anything, the Genophage forced the Krogan to recognize the value of the individual members of their society rather than treating them as disposable bodies to throw into the meat grinder. This is entirely the point. Someone gave them space ships and giant guns and created the circumstances for them to thrive inin order to do that. Left to their own devices they would be dead already. They had no intention of creating a galactic empire until someone gave them one. The Krogan aren't creating Bioweapons to wipe out enemies they can't beat, much less targetting children. They are the weapon that was deployed against an enemy nobody else could beat. Comitting genocide against a race you raised up to commit genocide, against a race that commits genocide. The Turians then went on to almost start another galactic war with new genocidal maniacs (us). The cycle continues. The only way out of this is to restore the natural order. End the catalyst logic and cure the Genophage. Don't be a baby murderer, Vortex.
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Nov 26, 2024 11:18:05 GMT
3,228
Vortex13
2,202
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on Aug 31, 2016 14:17:39 GMT
If we are going to talk genocide though, then the Krogan aren't innocent of that either. Rather than push the Rachni back to Suen and contain them there, the Krogan elected to actively hunt down and kill every last surviving member (that they knew of) of a clearly intelligent, space faring species. The outcome of the Rebellions could very easily have followed a similar course of action, especially considering all the crap that the Krogan pulled during their little war, but the rest of the galaxy elected to suppress and contain them rather than flat out kill them all. The Genophage might be a genocide from one point of view, but so was the Krogan killing of the Rachni. Plus, at least the Genophage has some merit to it, namely to keep the population in check, the complete scouring of Suen, served no purpose, save to satisfy the Krogans' bloodlust. EDIT: Plus, it's not like the Krogan had a great sense of care placed on their own numbers before the Genophage. Their previous battle tactics literally consisted of sending wave after wave of their own forces at the enemy to drown them in sheer numbers. If anything, the Genophage forced the Krogan to recognize the value of the individual members of their society rather than treating them as disposable bodies to throw into the meat grinder. This is entirely the point. Someone gave them space ships and giant guns and created the circumstances for them to thrive inin order to do that. Left to their own devices they would be dead already. They had no intention of creating a galactic empire until someone gave them one. The Krogan aren't creating Bioweapons to wipe out enemies they can't beat, much less targetting children. They are the weapon that was deployed against an enemy nobody else could beat. Comitting genocide against a race you raised up to commit genocide, against a race that commits genocide. The Turians then went on to almost start another galactic war with new genocidal maniacs (us). The cycle continues. The only way out of this is to restore the natural order. End the catalyst logic and cure the Genophage. Don't be a baby murderer, Vortex. But by 'restoring the natural order' you are dooming the Krogan to extinction anyway. As you said, the Krogan, left to their own devices would be dead already. So which is worse, killing all Krogan babies forever, or stopping the births of 99% but still allowing the Krogan to continue as a species? The Genophage is harsh, but the alternative is literal extinction. The Krogan can't go back to the 'way things used to be' they are a part of galactic society now, trying to send them back to pre-uplift status is just going to kill them off quicker. Much like how most modern day humans wouldn't be able to survive without modern convinces, how are the Krogan going to fair when the the Turians stop supplying Tuchunka with food stuffs, or if the Salarians remove the orbiting portion of the Shroud; the thing keeping the planet even remotely livable? Nothing the current Krogan have done has helped contribute to self sufficiency, everything that they need to survive has been provided them by the species that enacted the Genophage.
|
|
inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 31, 2016 14:29:35 GMT
This is entirely the point. Someone gave them space ships and giant guns and created the circumstances for them to thrive inin order to do that. Left to their own devices they would be dead already. They had no intention of creating a galactic empire until someone gave them one. The Krogan aren't creating Bioweapons to wipe out enemies they can't beat, much less targetting children. They are the weapon that was deployed against an enemy nobody else could beat. Comitting genocide against a race you raised up to commit genocide, against a race that commits genocide. The Turians then went on to almost start another galactic war with new genocidal maniacs (us). The cycle continues. The only way out of this is to restore the natural order. End the catalyst logic and cure the Genophage. Don't be a baby murderer, Vortex. But by 'restoring the natural order' you are dooming the Krogan to extinction anyway. As you said, the Krogan, left to their own devices would be dead already. So which is worse, killing all Krogan babies forever, or stopping the births of 99% but still allowing the Krogan to continue as a species? The Genophage is harsh, but the alternative is literal extinction. The Krogan can't go back to the 'way things used to be' they are a part of galactic society now, trying to send them back to pre-uplift status is just going to kill them off quicker. Much like how most modern day humans wouldn't be able to survive without modern convinces, how are the Krogan going to fair when the the Turians stop supplying Tuchunka with food stuffs, or if the Salarians remove the orbiting portion of the Shroud; the thing keeping the planet even remotely livable? Nothing the current Krogan have done has helped contribute to self sufficiency, everything that they need to survive has been provided them by the species that enacted the Genophage. Which is exactly the point. The genophage is now pointless. The only outcome is extinction. Where as curing the Genophage opens new doors and in the event the Krogan don't become civilized, confined to their own planet they're nobody elses problem. So what we have is not the continuation of an unjustifiable and extreme act (hypocritical by its own nature.) But a new and equally hypocritical and arguably less justifiable act. The last minute sabotage of the Genophage cure. Which only guarantees their death. The cure itself changes nothing for anyone but the Krogan. They either thrive or die and standing in their way is little more than spiteful. Because as we've established if they become war like again. They'll likely wipe themselves out, not anyone else. So sabotaging the genophage is a choice made out of personal preference, not a righteous decision for the good of the galaxy. A spiteful act of galactic infanticide is the only label we can actually put on not curing the Genophage.
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Nov 26, 2024 11:18:05 GMT
3,228
Vortex13
2,202
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on Aug 31, 2016 14:58:33 GMT
Which is exactly the point. The genophage is now pointless. The only outcome is extinction. Where as curing the Genophage opens new doors and in the event the Krogan don't become civilized, confined to their own planet they're nobody elses problem. So what we have is not the continuation of an unjustifiable and extreme act (hypocritical by its own nature.) But a new and equally hypocritical and arguably less justifiable act. The last minute sabotage of the Genophage cure. Which only guarantees their death. The cure itself changes nothing for anyone but the Krogan. They either thrive or die and standing in their way is little more than spiteful. Because as we've established if they become war like again. They'll likely wipe themselves out, not anyone else. So sabotaging the genophage is a choice made out of personal preference, not a righteous decision for the good of the galaxy. A spiteful act of galactic infanticide is the only label we can actually put on not curing the Genophage. Which is why the sabotaging of the cure choice is so laughably biased. You are right that the final decision is obvious, because BioWare can't apparently write a moral quandary without make one side look like Snidely Whiplash. As presented in the background lore, the Genophage and it's deployment was a nice grey issue; both sides of the discussion had good points. But, flash foreword to ME 3, and suddenly all of that nuance is gone, you are forced to either treat the Krogan as blameless victims, caught in a racist plot, or side with a cartoonishly shallow Salarian Dalatress, who's whole argument is summed up with: "I hate the Krogan and want to see their dead babies." No, I don't view the act of sabotaging the cure to be a worthwhile platform to stand on, because the very nature of the choice is designed to make players who choose to do it specifically look like racist d-bags for daring to go against the narrative and the feelz for the Krogan. Now where I would make my argument is the beginning of that arc when Wrex/Wreve forces the rest of the galaxy to put the Reaper war on hold so that they can all play doctor and cure the Genophage. This, despite Wrex's (if alive) promise of unmitigated aid in ME 2. Here we are, fighting for the lives of everyone in the entire galaxy (including the Krogan), and he has the audacity to call for a cure "or else". What if, during the time it took everyone to finish running around on Tuchunka, Palaven fell? The entire bulk of the armed forces needed to escort the Crucible, wiped out because the Krogan decided they wanted handouts and restitutions up front? It's not like the cure, and the resulting babies from it would have made any difference in the current conflict with the Reapers. You could say that Wrex/Wreve needed to make the demand then, otherwise the Genophage would never have been cured, but that is complete nonsense. The Rachni queen immediately sets out to help the galaxy in their fight and she doesn't have to deal with people trying to kill her off after the war; indeed the Rachni are given their own planet(s) and left to their own devices. Who's to say that the galaxy wouldn't see the brave, selfless acts of the Krogan as more than enough justification of the cure? Instead, the rest of the population is held a figurative gun point and forced to cow tow to the demands of a leader so petty as to doom everyone to extinction if he doesn't get his way; I'm real sure that that will garner loads of goodwill with the post-war galaxy.
|
|
inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 31, 2016 15:05:50 GMT
Which is exactly the point. The genophage is now pointless. The only outcome is extinction. Where as curing the Genophage opens new doors and in the event the Krogan don't become civilized, confined to their own planet they're nobody elses problem. So what we have is not the continuation of an unjustifiable and extreme act (hypocritical by its own nature.) But a new and equally hypocritical and arguably less justifiable act. The last minute sabotage of the Genophage cure. Which only guarantees their death. The cure itself changes nothing for anyone but the Krogan. They either thrive or die and standing in their way is little more than spiteful. Because as we've established if they become war like again. They'll likely wipe themselves out, not anyone else. So sabotaging the genophage is a choice made out of personal preference, not a righteous decision for the good of the galaxy. A spiteful act of galactic infanticide is the only label we can actually put on not curing the Genophage. Which is why the sabotaging of the cure choice is so laughably biased. You are right that the final decision is obvious, because BioWare can't apparently write a moral quandary without make one side look like Snidely Whiplash. As presented in the background lore, the Genophage and it's deployment was a nice grey issue; both sides of the discussion had good points. But, flash foreword to ME 3, and suddenly all of that nuance is gone, you are forced to either treat the Krogan as blameless victims, caught in a racist plot, or side with a cartoonishly shallow Salarian Dalatress, who's whole argument is summed up with: "I hate the Krogan and want to see their dead babies." No, I don't view the act of sabotaging the cure to be a worthwhile platform to stand on, because the very nature of the choice is designed to make players who choose to do it specifically look like racist d-bags for daring to go against the narrative and the feelz for the Krogan. Now where I would make my argument is the beginning of that arc when Wrex/Wreve forces the rest of the galaxy to put the Reaper war on hold so that they can all play doctor and cure the Genophage. This, despite Wrex's (if alive) promise of unmitigated aid in ME 2. Here we are, fighting for the lives of everyone in the entire galaxy (including the Krogan), and he has the audacity to call for a cure "or else". What if, during the time it took everyone to finish running around on Tuchunka, Palaven fell? The entire bulk of the armed forces needed to escort the Crucible, wiped out because the Krogan decided they wanted handouts and restitutions up front? It's not like the cure, and the resulting babies from it would have made any difference in the current conflict with the Reapers. You could say that Wrex/Wreve needed to make the demand then, otherwise the Genophage would never have been cured, but that is complete nonsense. The Rachni queen immediately sets out to help the galaxy in their fight and she doesn't have to deal with people trying to kill her off after the war; indeed the Rachni are given their own planet(s) and left to their own devices. Who's to say that the galaxy wouldn't see the brave, selfless acts of the Krogan as more than enough justification of the cure? Instead, the rest of the population is held a figurative gun point and forced to cow tow to the demands of a leader so petty as to doom everyone to extinction if he doesn't get his way; I'm real sure that that will garner loads of goodwill with the post-war galaxy. I agree with all of this within its context and i'd say that the forcing of the Salarians hand is where the story becomes openly biased. Even with the Primarch attempting to delay the wait, almost begging there is an element of arrogance and cruelty ftom Wrex. But at the same time it's the Primarch requesting Krogan aid. The alliance needs Turian aid and is assisting the process in exchange for the latter (Which means technically it's not even Shepards decision.). I wont make real world comparisons. But the Krogan are a bargaining chip once more and Wrex is wise to take advantage.
|
|
inherit
1040
0
Nov 26, 2024 11:18:05 GMT
3,228
Vortex13
2,202
Aug 17, 2016 14:31:53 GMT
August 2016
vortex13
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire
|
Post by Vortex13 on Aug 31, 2016 15:19:11 GMT
Which is why the sabotaging of the cure choice is so laughably biased. You are right that the final decision is obvious, because BioWare can't apparently write a moral quandary without make one side look like Snidely Whiplash. As presented in the background lore, the Genophage and it's deployment was a nice grey issue; both sides of the discussion had good points. But, flash foreword to ME 3, and suddenly all of that nuance is gone, you are forced to either treat the Krogan as blameless victims, caught in a racist plot, or side with a cartoonishly shallow Salarian Dalatress, who's whole argument is summed up with: "I hate the Krogan and want to see their dead babies." No, I don't view the act of sabotaging the cure to be a worthwhile platform to stand on, because the very nature of the choice is designed to make players who choose to do it specifically look like racist d-bags for daring to go against the narrative and the feelz for the Krogan. Now where I would make my argument is the beginning of that arc when Wrex/Wreve forces the rest of the galaxy to put the Reaper war on hold so that they can all play doctor and cure the Genophage. This, despite Wrex's (if alive) promise of unmitigated aid in ME 2. Here we are, fighting for the lives of everyone in the entire galaxy (including the Krogan), and he has the audacity to call for a cure "or else". What if, during the time it took everyone to finish running around on Tuchunka, Palaven fell? The entire bulk of the armed forces needed to escort the Crucible, wiped out because the Krogan decided they wanted handouts and restitutions up front? It's not like the cure, and the resulting babies from it would have made any difference in the current conflict with the Reapers. You could say that Wrex/Wreve needed to make the demand then, otherwise the Genophage would never have been cured, but that is complete nonsense. The Rachni queen immediately sets out to help the galaxy in their fight and she doesn't have to deal with people trying to kill her off after the war; indeed the Rachni are given their own planet(s) and left to their own devices. Who's to say that the galaxy wouldn't see the brave, selfless acts of the Krogan as more than enough justification of the cure? Instead, the rest of the population is held a figurative gun point and forced to cow tow to the demands of a leader so petty as to doom everyone to extinction if he doesn't get his way; I'm real sure that that will garner loads of goodwill with the post-war galaxy. I agree with all of this within its context and i'd say that the forcing of the Salarians hand is where the story becomes openly biased. Even with the Primarch attempting to delay the wait, almost begging there is an element of arrogance and cruelty ftom Wrex. But at the same time it's the Primarch requesting Krogan aid. The alliance needs Turian aid and is assisting the process in exchange for the latter (Which means technically it's not even Shepards decision.). I wont make real world comparisons. But the Krogan are a bargaining chip once more and Wrex is wise to take advantage. Wrex could have used that to build bridges with the Turians though. Two people, who historically hate each other, could have formed a long standing partnership, if Wrex hadn't been so admit about the cure, pretty much confirming every Krogan stereotype in the Primarch's eyes; especially with his barely concealed arrogance and cruelty. What's more, Wrex continues to be belligerent to his allies; openly throwing out racial slurs at the Salarian soldiers on Surkesh, for example, despite getting his demands met. All he has done with demanding a cure upfront, is cost the lives of untold millions of people via the Reapers being uncontested, and shown the galaxy that the Krogan are still as unreasonable as they were during the Rebellions.
|
|
inherit
Psi-Cop
38
0
Feb 21, 2019 15:55:45 GMT
10,231
CrutchCricket
The Emperor Daft Serious
4,577
August 2016
crutchcricket
CrutchCricket
Mass Effect Trilogy
|
Post by CrutchCricket on Aug 31, 2016 15:19:49 GMT
Yes, don't murder Krogan babies... let the krogan do that themselves. I like that you've taken to my "natural order" arguments but I think you're still ignoring that those arguments aren't wholly in the krogan's favor. I'm not taking sides here but just consider this: what would be the bigger travesty- a thousand stillborn that never knew life or pain and suffering, or a thousand babies that live a short life of misery and starvation before simply expiring (the nicer option) or being eaten alive by their own kin? I wonder how the krogan females who can't take birthing more stillborn would take having to euthanize their living children to spare them further pain, or because there's literally nothing else to eat... This is really morbid so I'm not going to go much further. I just want to point out the very real consequences of the situation. Whether to cure the genophage or not is a tough choice and a lot of factors need to be considered. The dangers aren't krogan rebellions 2.0 like everyone assumes but there are dangers, on both sides. There is no single argument that unequivocably renders one side the "right choice". And if there is, it's certainly not "but derr babies!"
|
|
inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 31, 2016 15:25:21 GMT
I agree with all of this within its context and i'd say that the forcing of the Salarians hand is where the story becomes openly biased. Even with the Primarch attempting to delay the wait, almost begging there is an element of arrogance and cruelty ftom Wrex. But at the same time it's the Primarch requesting Krogan aid. The alliance needs Turian aid and is assisting the process in exchange for the latter (Which means technically it's not even Shepards decision.). I wont make real world comparisons. But the Krogan are a bargaining chip once more and Wrex is wise to take advantage. Wrex could have used that to build bridges with the Turians though. Two people, who historically hate each other, could have formed a long standing partnership, if Wrex hadn't been so admit about the cure, pretty much confirming every Krogan stereotype in the Primarch's eyes; especially with his barely concealed arrogance and cruelty. What's more, Wrex continues to be belligerent to his allies; openly throwing out racial slurs at the Salarian soldiers on Surkesh, for example, despite getting his demands met. All he has done with demanding a cure upfront, is cost the lives of untold millions of people via the Reapers being uncontested, and shown the galaxy that the Krogan are still as unreasonable as they were during the Rebellions. But thats back to where we were again using perty excuses to commit genocide in the name of genocide.
|
|
inherit
209
0
3,640
zipzap2000
Zip has left the building.
2,263
August 2016
zipzap2000
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by zipzap2000 on Aug 31, 2016 15:30:20 GMT
Yes, don't murder Krogan babies... let the krogan do that themselves. I like that you've taken to my "natural order" arguments but I think you're still ignoring that those arguments aren't wholly in the krogan's favor. I'm not taking sides here but just consider this: what would be the bigger travesty- a thousand stillborn that never knew life or pain and suffering, or a thousand babies that live a short life of misery and starvation before simply expiring (the nicer option) or being eaten alive by their own kin? I wonder how the krogan females who can't take birthing more stillborn would take having to euthanize their living children to spare them further pain, or because there's literally nothing else to eat... This is really morbid so I'm not going to go much further. I just want to point out the very real consequences of the situation. Whether to cure the genophage or not is a tough choice and a lot of factors need to be considered. The dangers aren't krogan rebellions 2.0 like everyone assumes but there are dangers, on both sides. There is no single argument that unequivocably renders one side the "right choice". And if there is, it's certainly not "but derr babies!" The argument isnt dead babies are a bad thing. Is that wanting to see dead babies for no reason that follows logic makes you a monster. (If we're going to take this at all seriously that is. I just wanted to post photos and be semi on topic originally.)
|
|