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Post by straykat on Sept 9, 2016 6:08:47 GMT
You can see the difference with Wrex alive in 2. No one agrees him, except in a begrudging manner. Even the damn merchants are happier with him gone. But "Wreav thinks like the ancients" and makes them comfortable. And in Eve's own words, Wrex is a mutant. That's one way to look at it. The way I saw it, Wrex in ME2 showed that the Krogans were able to follow a different path. I think there were quite a few Krogan that agreed with him, that's why he was able to get the support of the other clans to join his alliance. But there's all sorts of views on Tuchanka. There is the anti-alien rhetoric, background conversation on killing Salarians and Turians, and there's the Krogan who brings his Asari bride to Tuchanka, along with the conversation about the guy wanting a child and a future. I've brought up the similarity between the Genophage choice and the Decision Chamber encounter with the Catalyst, but I'll go further. The Genophage isn't as bad as the Reaper invasion, but to the Krogan it is obviously up there as an ongoing attack (especially if they ever find out about Mordin's upgrade). To expect the Krogan to agree that the Genophage is beneficial would be like expecting Organics to agree that the Reaper Invasion is beneficial because it solves the Organic/Synthetic conflict. Other Krogan would look upon one of their own with that view the way we look at the indoctrinated agents helping the Reapers. Its just unrealistic. Hell, post-betrayal, if another galactic enemy showed up and offered a cure, they'd probably join them the same way the Geth joined the Reapers. And like the ongoing resistance to the Reaper's solution, the Genophage if it isn't cured will probably end in conflict, and the extinction of the Krogan or conquest of the Council. The Genophage isn't the only thing to compare to the Catalyst choice. Okeer and the Male Shaman are more akin to Destroy. In this scenario, the Krogan need a hard Reboot, not a cure, and left alone to evolve slowly. Grunt was meant to be a template to lead Krogan down this path. It was a mistake tampering with them to begin with via uplift and this is the closest you can get to starting from scratch. There are various degrees to pressing the reset button with what the Reapers have done to Evolution in general, but this is basically what Destroy comes down to. Getting all of that oversight and control out of people's lives. Okeer surmised that his race would be better off for it. The Shaman as well. He said destroying their own planet was a good thing. lol. It's no more stupid than resting your hopes on Wrex. Neither have wide support or massive following with their particular philosophy. What most Krogan want is a Genophage Cure but to be like Wreav. All of you who complain about the Genophage seem to ignore uplift... as if that was the minor detail. When that's the real problem. The Krogan don't belong in the first place. And Salarians and Asari don't have the balls to recognize that. They even tried to integrate them with the Council once. After getting screwed by that disaster, they went with a half measure like the Genophage. But the problem was the Krogan's presence to begin with. You could also blame it on a further degree of meddling though with the Rachni.. if the Leviathan controlled them to cause the Rachni wars, then it's a similar problem. We need to get rid of all things like this. It produced even more measures of control when the Salarians brought the Krogan in. It's a vicious cycle. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 9, 2016 7:00:25 GMT
I have noted the uplift and here's what I think would have happened had "nature taken its course". All Council worlds would have been decimated by the rachni. Eventually, the krogan would have attained space flight on their own and encountered a rachni dominated galaxy. They would have gone to war and, in all probability, lost - because it would be a galaxy's worth of rachni versus one world of krogan. Down the line, the Reapers would have returned, played the "sour song", indoctrinated all of the rachni before turning them into this cycle's latest Reaper.
For the record, the rachni were bred as weapons of war by the Protheans. It seems that uplifting a species strictly for war purposes is a bad idea in any cycle. Rachni also breed just as fast as krogan and are just as violent. The difference is that they're more intelligent. Given the correct choices, the rachni aid the Crucible project, proving that they can be useful. If you play it this way, with rachni and krogan existing, you've got a check for either species becoming too expansionist, because they can always be pitted against one another if necessary.
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Post by straykat on Sept 9, 2016 7:13:16 GMT
I have noted the uplift and here's what I think would have happened had "nature taken its course". All Council worlds would have been decimated by the rachni. Eventually, the krogan would have attained space flight on their own and encountered a rachni dominated galaxy. They would have gone to war and, in all probability, lost - because it would be a galaxy's worth of rachni versus one world of krogan. Down the line, the Reapers would have returned, played the "sour song", indoctrinated all of the rachni before turning them into this cycle's latest Reaper. For the record, the rachni were bred as weapons of war by the Protheans. It seems that uplifting a species strictly for war purposes is a bad idea in any cycle. Rachni also breed just as fast as krogan and are just as violent. The difference is that they're more intelligent. Given the correct choices, the rachni aid the Crucible project, proving that they can be useful. If you play it this way, with rachni and krogan existing, you've got a check for either species becoming too expansionist, because they can always be pitted against one another if necessary. lol.. You're almost making me want to play default Shep now. Or go back to ME1 and kill the queen. But I have more faith in them than the Krogan. And I only have to deal with one - the Queen. I can't do that with Krogan. |
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 9, 2016 12:52:20 GMT
the Drell have specialized dome cities to accomodate their need for dryness and codexes have repeatedly affirmed that they stay with the Hanar out of loyalty, not because they were forced to. They are asked to do things the Hanar cannot, such as building, lifting, carrying and any other such tasks besides assassinations. They all have the choice to refuse and some do. There's nothing to indicate that the Compact is unwelcome amongst the Drell. And I don't think anyone's arguing that the Krogan are bad and deserve to die off as a species or that the Council races are altruistic angels. We're arguing that the decisions made about the Krogan are not just, "MWAHAHAHAHA! DIE YOU UNGRATEFUL TURTLES FOR DARING TO DEFY ME!!". It's a hard decision, mainly because the races just want the Krogan to not go killing off their people but neither have they forgotten what the Krogan did that saved them from the Rachni. Your comments, however, are practically raising the hanar into a position of sainthood. The indication that all is not so well with the Drell is Thane and his desire for his son to no follow the same path he was given. Also, he clearly wants his son to follow the Drell religion... not the Enkindler religion of the Hanar (as other Drell have been prone to do). The hanar are allegedly looking for a cure for Kepral's syndrome... but they haven't actually found one yet. Maybe, like the salarians did when it looked like the genophage might cure itself, they are actually undermining the curing of the syndrome? North American governments have built housing and such on First Nations reservations. They've provided life-long funding to the First Nations people. They have also stuffed them into environments where they don't thrive and where their culture doesn't thrive. Are they the rescuers of the First Nations - uplifting them out of their fishing and gathering cultures into modern society... or are they fracturing the First Nations, stripping them of their identity, religion, etc.? Is the lack of an inclination to "rebel" what makes the situation acceptable? What turns the "conquerer" into a "rescuer"; a "treaty" into a "compact?" Is putting up a statue enough to show that the council haven't forgotten what the Krogan did that saved them from the Rachni? As I said, I think there are elements presented in the game for people to legitimately consider "both sides" of these moral dilemmas. I'm fine with your take on the Krogan... but I also think that the other side of this argument is present in the game and worth considering as well. While I'm sure that there is a darker side to the Hanar and Drell's interaction (nothing is black and white despite what BioWare would want to believe) I don't think it's as bleak as all that. The Hanar really have no need for a cheap labor force, seeing as how they posses the most robust assortment of robotics and automated systems; just shy of the Quarians before the Geth rebelled; in the galaxy. Their synthetic prowess is even enough to force the Reapers to reconsider a straight out attack on Kahje while their automated denseness are still up. They have no need of a servant race to do menial tasks for them. Likewise, it was the Hanar that trained Drell, like Thane, as assassins. They have the techniques available to kill someone if they wanted, it seems a little far fetched that they would mount massive rescue effort solely for the purposes of acquiring a supply of trainee hit men. The culture shock, and general gratitude of the Drell species might be lending to a environment of devotion on their part towards the Hanar, but there is no indication that the Hanar are encouraging the issue. Thane volunteered for his position as an assassin, and once he finished his terms of employment, the Hanar let him go. They also didn't force their views of the Enkindlers upon the Drell; indeed they even let them practice their religion on Kahje. The Hanar don't try and stop any Drell that want to leave their home world either, for the most part they are rather passive in their oversight of the Drell. The comparison to the First Nations here doesn't really apply since the Hanar didn't move into Rakhana and take their land in generations past. A more apt comparison would be if a modern country discovered a tribe of natives living on a volcanic island, and then saved said tribe of people when their volcano erupted, transplanting them back to the mainland and gave them food & shelter. Now it's true that such a disruption would effect this tribe's culture, but I would say it's not some form of malicious intent on part of the modern country when they rescued them from certain death. |
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 9, 2016 13:10:15 GMT
However, the Krogan Rebellions only happened because the Council refused to let the krogan restart their civilisation on another planet. They can't build a future on Tuchanka's radioactive atmosphere. Had they been given a chance to rebuild elsewhere, would they have employed violence to achieve their means and become so xenophobic toward other species? Can't the same be said about the batarians and how their government turned them into xenophobic, human-hating terrorists after their solar system was depleted by human colonisers and the Council just stood there and watched, arms crossed and all? Not true, the Krogan rebellions started when the Krogan ruined the planets given to them by the Council after the Rachni wars, and then started taking the other species' worlds. They were given the opportunity to restart their civilization on several planets, but they demonstrated that they couldn't be effective managers of those holdings, nor could they co-exist peacefully with the other species. The cause of the rebellions rests solely on the Krogan and their hostile expansionism. As for the Batarians, the Council looked the other way because the Hegemony had been actively hostile to the council races for millennia, even going so far as to open fire on a Salarian colony. Of course they didn't care that humanity was pushing into the Batarian's territory; the same way the rest of the world wouldn't really care if South Korea started kicking the crap out of North Korea and the two nations kept their battle limited to each other. |
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 9, 2016 13:26:17 GMT
I have noted the uplift and here's what I think would have happened had "nature taken its course". All Council worlds would have been decimated by the rachni. Eventually, the krogan would have attained space flight on their own and encountered a rachni dominated galaxy. They would have gone to war and, in all probability, lost - because it would be a galaxy's worth of rachni versus one world of krogan. Down the line, the Reapers would have returned, played the "sour song", indoctrinated all of the rachni before turning them into this cycle's latest Reaper. For the record, the rachni were bred as weapons of war by the Protheans. It seems that uplifting a species strictly for war purposes is a bad idea in any cycle. Rachni also breed just as fast as krogan and are just as violent. The difference is that they're more intelligent. Given the correct choices, the rachni aid the Crucible project, proving that they can be useful. If you play it this way, with rachni and krogan existing, you've got a check for either species becoming too expansionist, because they can always be pitted against one another if necessary. lol.. You're almost making me want to play default Shep now. Or go back to ME1 and kill the queen. But I have more faith in them than the Krogan. And I only have to deal with one - the Queen. I can't do that with Krogan. I have more faith in the Rachni as well, though my trust would extend to multiple queens as well. The thing with the Rachni is that the games never really give us a chance to interact with them in a situation were they aren't currently being mind controlled by Leviathan, held in captivity on Noveria, or held in captivity by the Reapers. The times we do get to see them free of those stipulations the Rachni queen has demonstrated to be true to her word and quite willing to put her species at risk to help others; which is a lot more than the rest of the species in the galaxy can say. Considering those points, as well as the fact that any future queens will be the offspring of the one who is wiling to work with the galaxy, I would have more trust in them living peacefully with everyone than I can see in the Krogan. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 13:51:24 GMT
Your comments, however, are practically raising the hanar into a position of sainthood. The indication that all is not so well with the Drell is Thane and his desire for his son to no follow the same path he was given. Also, he clearly wants his son to follow the Drell religion... not the Enkindler religion of the Hanar (as other Drell have been prone to do). The hanar are allegedly looking for a cure for Kepral's syndrome... but they haven't actually found one yet. Maybe, like the salarians did when it looked like the genophage might cure itself, they are actually undermining the curing of the syndrome? North American governments have built housing and such on First Nations reservations. They've provided life-long funding to the First Nations people. They have also stuffed them into environments where they don't thrive and where their culture doesn't thrive. Are they the rescuers of the First Nations - uplifting them out of their fishing and gathering cultures into modern society... or are they fracturing the First Nations, stripping them of their identity, religion, etc.? Is the lack of an inclination to "rebel" what makes the situation acceptable? What turns the "conquerer" into a "rescuer"; a "treaty" into a "compact?" Is putting up a statue enough to show that the council haven't forgotten what the Krogan did that saved them from the Rachni? As I said, I think there are elements presented in the game for people to legitimately consider "both sides" of these moral dilemmas. I'm fine with your take on the Krogan... but I also think that the other side of this argument is present in the game and worth considering as well. Not really, do we know that troubles between Kolyat and Thane are the result of the Hanar's doing or Thane's after he was released? Without the protection of the Hanar government, did Thane slip up and cause his regret being an assassin when enemies targeted Irikah? Or was his regret going farther back for not having any skills adaptable for less dangerous work? The first one places blame on himself for not trying to train for another career when he had the capability, the second implies Thane simply wasn't given the skills needed to adapt to something else. Frankly, we don't have enough information about the darker side of the Drell and Hanar relationship (beyond being described as fanatical devotion). We only have Codices and Thane's word that things are copacetic and to say it's not true is supposition until we receive more information. While you ask a lot of good questions about governments and the people under them, using the Hanar/Drell relations as comparable to how the Krogan are treated by the Council may not fit as easily as say, the quarians and the Council. I don't think I intended to say that the Krogan should be stuck forever after with the genophage; I've been arguing that instead of vilifying those who deployed the genophage, perhaps there was justifiable reason after all. And given the title as I pointed out earlier, there's already an opinion started in the title that has not considered the other side of the argument. Thane clearly indicates that he doesn't want his son following the same "dark path" he did. He also explains his abandonment of his family as "doing his job" - He was always away on business. His job was to be an assassin for the Hanar. Also, it was a result of his job that his wife was killed. In that conversation Thane gives out a conflicting message - one claiming that the Drell are honored to serve the Hanar (given in the third person) and one describing the personal cost he has paid for having served the Hanar as an assassin for all of his life (delivered in the first person). It's up to the individual player which message they take as being the stronger one. This is what I'm saying with most of these moral dilemmas presented in the game - the developers wrote in conflicting messages regarding all of them. We're told the Krogan are so irrationally violent... then shown several Krogan (not only Wrex) who are clearly not quite so violent and prone to "reason." The relative strength of the two messages does change depending on whether or not you kill Wrex in ME1... but there is still some degree of countering this violent stereotype of the Krogan in all the games regardless. Even with Wreav in ME2, Shepard is still able to "reason" with him, even though Wreav's motivations for things are quite different than Wrex's. There are playthroughs where I choose to cure the genophage and other playthroughs where I don't. What determines what choice I make is what Shepard "believes" philosophically about the nature of things like individuality, dictatorship, feminine rights, etc. In that this moral dilemma can be validly viewed from so many different angles is what, I think, makes it a very well written part of the Trilogy. There is no absolute "right" answer to it. Of all the "reasons" though, the one I find the most used and least reasonable is the "fear" (expressed as an absolute certainty) that the Krogan will ultimately overrun all the other races in the entire galaxy if their reproductive biology is returned to it's natural state - even as the "expansion" of the human race in large numbers across the galaxy in a mere 30 odd years goes completely unnoticed by most players. |
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Post by straykat on Sept 9, 2016 14:06:56 GMT
Not really, do we know that troubles between Kolyat and Thane are the result of the Hanar's doing or Thane's after he was released? Without the protection of the Hanar government, did Thane slip up and cause his regret being an assassin when enemies targeted Irikah? Or was his regret going farther back for not having any skills adaptable for less dangerous work? The first one places blame on himself for not trying to train for another career when he had the capability, the second implies Thane simply wasn't given the skills needed to adapt to something else. Frankly, we don't have enough information about the darker side of the Drell and Hanar relationship (beyond being described as fanatical devotion). We only have Codices and Thane's word that things are copacetic and to say it's not true is supposition until we receive more information. While you ask a lot of good questions about governments and the people under them, using the Hanar/Drell relations as comparable to how the Krogan are treated by the Council may not fit as easily as say, the quarians and the Council. I don't think I intended to say that the Krogan should be stuck forever after with the genophage; I've been arguing that instead of vilifying those who deployed the genophage, perhaps there was justifiable reason after all. And given the title as I pointed out earlier, there's already an opinion started in the title that has not considered the other side of the argument. Thane clearly indicates that he doesn't want his son following the same "dark path" he did. He also explains his abandonment of his family as "doing his job" - He was always away on business. His job was to be an assassin for the Hanar. Also, it was a result of his job that his wife was killed. In that conversation Thane gives out a conflicting message - one claiming that the Drell are honored to serve the Hanar (given in the third person) and one describing the personal cost he has paid for having served the Hanar as an assassin for all of his life (delivered in the first person). It's up to the individual player which message they take as being the stronger one. This is what I'm saying with most of these moral dilemmas presented in the game - the developers wrote in conflicting messages regarding all of them. We're told the Krogan are so irrationally violent... then shown several Krogan (not only Wrex) who are clearly not quite so violent and prone to "reason." The relative strength of the two messages does change depending on whether or not you kill Wrex in ME1... but there is still some degree of countering this violent stereotype of the Krogan in all the games regardless. Even with Wreav in ME2, Shepard is still able to "reason" with him, even though Wreav's motivations for things are quite different than Wrex's. There are playthroughs where I choose to cure the genophage and other playthroughs where I don't. What determines what choice I make is what Shepard "believes" philosophically about the nature of things like individuality, dictatorship, feminine rights, etc. In that this moral dilemma can be validly viewed from so many different angles is what, I think, makes it a very well written part of the Trilogy. There is no absolute "right" answer to it. Of all the "reasons" though, the one I find the most used and least reasonable is the "fear" (expressed as an absolute certainty) that the Krogan will ultimately overrun all the other races in the entire galaxy if their reproductive biology is returned to it's natural state. I'll give this post a like but "fear" is not unreasonable. It actually has been demonstrated in action what can happen. Not theories, but actual events. They are superior and more destructive in every way imaginable. There's little that can stop them, except indirect methods (which the Turians eventually used. They're capable warriors also, but they used a Salarian weapon.. because there's nothing else they can do). And they were uplifted for the express purpose of killing shit. Fearing such a thing is normal. The current Krogan have no other reason to be here other than that. They have no Da Vincis and Einsteins and enlightened periods that slowly moved them to this era. They don't even belong here. They just have death and war in their history. And they LIKE it. Except Wrex and Eve. AKA Bioware's way of blowing sunshine up my ass. To me, that's the true "unreasonable" thing. It's nice and all and I want to like it tbh, but it's purely emotional. Not reasonable. |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 9, 2016 14:35:19 GMT
As I've said before. I don't care about the krogan or the cure. I'm only interested in defeating the reapers. Dalatross offers aid. I take it. If the krogan don't like it, well then boo hoo hoo. I don't care. If the reapers win, who cares?
You know what's cool? Having 0 krogan war assets and still destroying the reapers. Look at that. They weren't needed after all. hahahaha
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 9, 2016 14:36:39 GMT
That's one way to look at it. The way I saw it, Wrex in ME2 showed that the Krogans were able to follow a different path. I think there were quite a few Krogan that agreed with him, that's why he was able to get the support of the other clans to join his alliance. But there's all sorts of views on Tuchanka. There is the anti-alien rhetoric, background conversation on killing Salarians and Turians, and there's the Krogan who brings his Asari bride to Tuchanka, along with the conversation about the guy wanting a child and a future. I've brought up the similarity between the Genophage choice and the Decision Chamber encounter with the Catalyst, but I'll go further. The Genophage isn't as bad as the Reaper invasion, but to the Krogan it is obviously up there as an ongoing attack (especially if they ever find out about Mordin's upgrade). To expect the Krogan to agree that the Genophage is beneficial would be like expecting Organics to agree that the Reaper Invasion is beneficial because it solves the Organic/Synthetic conflict. Other Krogan would look upon one of their own with that view the way we look at the indoctrinated agents helping the Reapers. Its just unrealistic. Hell, post-betrayal, if another galactic enemy showed up and offered a cure, they'd probably join them the same way the Geth joined the Reapers. And like the ongoing resistance to the Reaper's solution, the Genophage if it isn't cured will probably end in conflict, and the extinction of the Krogan or conquest of the Council. The Genophage isn't the only thing to compare to the Catalyst choice. Okeer and the Male Shaman are more akin to Destroy. In this scenario, the Krogan need a hard Reboot, not a cure, and left alone to evolve slowly. Grunt was meant to be a template to lead Krogan down this path. It was a mistake tampering with them to begin with via uplift and this is the closest you can get to starting from scratch. There are various degrees to pressing the reset button with what the Reapers have done to Evolution in general, but this is basically what Destroy comes down to. Getting all of that oversight and control out of people's lives. Okeer surmised that his race would be better off for it. The Shaman as well. He said destroying their own planet was a good thing. lol. It's no more stupid than resting your hopes on Wrex. Neither have wide support or massive following with their particular philosophy. What most Krogan want is a Genophage Cure but to be like Wreav. All of you who complain about the Genophage seem to ignore uplift... as if that was the minor detail. When that's the real problem. The Krogan don't belong in the first place. And Salarians and Asari don't have the balls to recognize that. They even tried to integrate them with the Council once. After getting screwed by that disaster, they went with a half measure like the Genophage. But the problem was the Krogan's presence to begin with. You could also blame it on a further degree of meddling though with the Rachni.. if the Leviathan controlled them to cause the Rachni wars, then it's a similar problem. We need to get rid of all things like this. It produced even more measures of control when the Salarians brought the Krogan in. It's a vicious cycle. I think its less an argument that Wrex, Eve, Wreave, or even current Krogan society represents the future of the Krogan, and more that the evidence shows the Krogan to not simply be mindlessly aggressive and violent brutes. The Krogan are rationale conscious self-aware beings capable of all manner of behavior. That they didn't just throw themselves at the Turians when the Genophage was originally deployed in a final act of glory and get completely wiped out, like renegade influenced Patriarch in ME2, shows that already. Regardless of the reasons for the current state of the Krogan, the whole notion that we can craft and control their society somehow with an overtly hostile form of population control is fraught with as many (if not more) problems as standard diplomacy. My argument is more that the Krogan aren't at war with the rest of the Galaxy so we shouldn't be attacking them, and if they did become a threat or go to war, that there are any number of ways other than the Genophage to deal with a hostile Krogan state, starting with the conventional methods we use today in modern international relations. The option in ME3 isn't to cure the Genophage and then do nothing, the option is to cure the Genophage. |
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Post by straykat on Sept 9, 2016 14:36:54 GMT
As I've said before. I don't care about the krogan or the cure. I'm only interested in defeating the reapers. Dalatross offers aid. I take it. If the krogan don't like it, well then boo hoo hoo. I don't care. If the reapers win, who cares? You know what's cool? Having 0 krogan war assets and still destroying the reapers. Look at that. They weren't needed after all. hahahaha That's true, but I still won't praise the war asset system. And I don't think you really want to either.  |
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Post by themikefest on Sept 9, 2016 14:46:37 GMT
As I've said before. I don't care about the krogan or the cure. I'm only interested in defeating the reapers. Dalatross offers aid. I take it. If the krogan don't like it, well then boo hoo hoo. I don't care. If the reapers win, who cares? You know what's cool? Having 0 krogan war assets and still destroying the reapers. Look at that. They weren't needed after all. hahahaha That's true, but I still won't praise the war asset system. And I don't think you really want to either. It just shows how pathetic ems is. That's why the game is about getting a number and not what the player did to get that number. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 14:58:57 GMT
Thane clearly indicates that he doesn't want his son following the same "dark path" he did. He also explains his abandonment of his family as "doing his job" - He was always away on business. His job was to be an assassin for the Hanar. Also, it was a result of his job that his wife was killed. In that conversation Thane gives out a conflicting message - one claiming that the Drell are honored to serve the Hanar (given in the third person) and one describing the personal cost he has paid for having served the Hanar as an assassin for all of his life (delivered in the first person). It's up to the individual player which message they take as being the stronger one. This is what I'm saying with most of these moral dilemmas presented in the game - the developers wrote in conflicting messages regarding all of them. We're told the Krogan are so irrationally violent... then shown several Krogan (not only Wrex) who are clearly not quite so violent and prone to "reason." The relative strength of the two messages does change depending on whether or not you kill Wrex in ME1... but there is still some degree of countering this violent stereotype of the Krogan in all the games regardless. Even with Wreav in ME2, Shepard is still able to "reason" with him, even though Wreav's motivations for things are quite different than Wrex's. There are playthroughs where I choose to cure the genophage and other playthroughs where I don't. What determines what choice I make is what Shepard "believes" philosophically about the nature of things like individuality, dictatorship, feminine rights, etc. In that this moral dilemma can be validly viewed from so many different angles is what, I think, makes it a very well written part of the Trilogy. There is no absolute "right" answer to it. Of all the "reasons" though, the one I find the most used and least reasonable is the "fear" (expressed as an absolute certainty) that the Krogan will ultimately overrun all the other races in the entire galaxy if their reproductive biology is returned to it's natural state. I'll give this post a like but "fear" is not unreasonable. It actually has been demonstrated in action what can happen. Not theories, but actual events. They are superior and more destructive in every way imaginable. There's little that can stop them, except indirect methods (which the Turians eventually used. They're capable warriors also, but they used a Salarian weapon.. because there's nothing else they can do). And they were uplifted for the express purpose of killing shit. Fearing such a thing is normal. The current Krogan have no other reason to be here other than that. They have no Da Vincis and Einsteins and enlightened periods that slowly moved them to this era. They don't even belong here. They just have death and war in their history. And they LIKE it. Except Wrex and Eve. AKA Bioware's way of blowing sunshine up my ass. To me, that's the true "unreasonable" thing. It's nice and all and I want to like it tbh, but it's purely emotional. Not reasonable. Let's compare some population statistics: Krogan: Population of Tuchanka - 2.1 Billion (plus 2,400 in orbital substations) Turians: Population of Palaven - 6.1 Billion (plus 350,000 in orbital substations) New Total from adding Wiki Planet Pages - 8.9 Billion Asari: Population of Thessia - 5.5 Billion (plus 33,000 in orbital substations) New Total from adding Wiki Planet Pages - 10 Billion Human: Population of Earth - 11.4 Billion (250,000 in orbital substations) Mixed Populations - Illium (8.9 Million); Omega (7.8 million); Citadel (13.2 million) List of Human Colonies (http://massfanon.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Alliance_Colonies): Total of Populations Given: Over 47 Billion and there are several listed with no population given. (CORRECTION - Added More Carefully, sorry for fat figures - Total of Colonies not including earth is roughly 449 million. Also new total adds in some addditional references from individual planet pages in the Wiki rather than just the summary cited here. Given that, I would say any human fear of Krogan overrunning the galaxy is unfounded. If the humans could breed up a colony population of over 47 billion in just over 30 years andd we have technology that includes the Normandy (better than the Turians), humans are the real risk here. One reason my Shepard sometimes doesn't cure the genophage isn't fear... it's just practical for humanity to not have to bother bother eliminating the Krogan while finishing off the Turians and Asari in order to completely conquer the galaxy. ETA: Salarian: Population of Sur'Kesh - 10.3 Billion (plus 1.1 million in orbital substations) Additional: New Total by Added Given Populations of Individual "worlds" from Wiki: Asari - 10 Billion Turian - 8.9 Billion Salarian - 10.3 Billion Batarian - 222 Million Volus - 12.6 Billion Human - 11.8 Billion Elcor - 2.57 Billion |
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Post by Vortex13 on Sept 9, 2016 15:04:19 GMT
I'll give this post a like but "fear" is not unreasonable. It actually has been demonstrated in action what can happen. Not theories, but actual events. They are superior and more destructive in every way imaginable. There's little that can stop them, except indirect methods (which the Turians eventually used. They're capable warriors also, but they used a Salarian weapon.. because there's nothing else they can do). And they were uplifted for the express purpose of killing shit. Fearing such a thing is normal. The current Krogan have no other reason to be here other than that. They have no Da Vincis and Einsteins and enlightened periods that slowly moved them to this era. They don't even belong here. They just have death and war in their history. And they LIKE it. Except Wrex and Eve. AKA Bioware's way of blowing sunshine up my ass. To me, that's the true "unreasonable" thing. It's nice and all and I want to like it tbh, but it's purely emotional. Not reasonable. Let's compare some population statistics: Krogan: Population of Tuchanka - 2.1 Billion (plus 2,400 in orbital substations) Turians: Population of Palaven - 6.1 Billion (plus 350,000 in orbital substations) Asari: Population of Thessia - 5.5 Billion (plus 33,000 in orbital substations) Human: Population of Earth - 11.4 Billion (250,000 in orbital substations) Mixed Populations - Illium (8.9 Million); Omega (7.8 million); Citadel (13.2 million) List of Human Colonies (http://massfanon.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Alliance_Colonies): Total of Populations Given: Over 47 Billion and there are several listed with no population given. Given that, I would say any human fear of Krogan overrunning the galaxy is unfounded. If the humans could breed up a colony population of over 47 billion in just over 30 years andd we have technology that includes the Normandy (better than the Turians), humanity are the real risk here. That's more of the " Humans are special little snowflakes" crap than anything else. No way humanity could have that much population, and the rest of the galaxy have that little considering they have existed as a space faring society for thousands of years longer than we humans have been able to collectively read and write. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 15:14:46 GMT
Let's compare some population statistics: Krogan: Population of Tuchanka - 2.1 Billion (plus 2,400 in orbital substations) Turians: Population of Palaven - 6.1 Billion (plus 350,000 in orbital substations) Asari: Population of Thessia - 5.5 Billion (plus 33,000 in orbital substations) Human: Population of Earth - 11.4 Billion (250,000 in orbital substations) Mixed Populations - Illium (8.9 Million); Omega (7.8 million); Citadel (13.2 million) List of Human Colonies (http://massfanon.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Alliance_Colonies): Total of Populations Given: Over 47 Billion and there are several listed with no population given. Given that, I would say any human fear of Krogan overrunning the galaxy is unfounded. If the humans could breed up a colony population of over 47 billion in just over 30 years andd we have technology that includes the Normandy (better than the Turians), humanity are the real risk here. That's more of the " Humans are special little snowflakes" crap than anything else. No way humanity could have that much population, and the rest of the galaxy have that little considering they have existed as a space faring society for thousands of years longer than we humans have been able to collectively read and write. As I've said - the game presents two diametrically opposing "hints" at views on a number of the issues. It's up to the player in any given playthrough what they "selectively" believe or disbelieve... but each playthrough practically requires the player to not believe some of what the game puts forth as being true. Players who selectively believe that all Krogan are inherently violent, etc. tend to not cure the genophage out of that "fear" (and this is probably the most popular POV taken by players). However, it is certainly not the only POV that can be logically taken by players. The same goes for the endings issue. You can disbelieve the catalyst or you do have the option of taking what the catalyst says as being true... and that will likely influence your decision. Still, every decision can be logically made and is valid... although, in my experience, the "peer" pressure around here to make decisions in only one direction can be pretty strong. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Sept 9, 2016 15:27:02 GMT
Let's compare some population statistics: Krogan: Population of Tuchanka - 2.1 Billion (plus 2,400 in orbital substations) Turians: Population of Palaven - 6.1 Billion (plus 350,000 in orbital substations) Asari: Population of Thessia - 5.5 Billion (plus 33,000 in orbital substations) Human: Population of Earth - 11.4 Billion (250,000 in orbital substations) Mixed Populations - Illium (8.9 Million); Omega (7.8 million); Citadel (13.2 million) List of Human Colonies (http://massfanon.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Alliance_Colonies): Total of Populations Given: Over 47 Billion and there are several listed with no population given. Given that, I would say any human fear of Krogan overrunning the galaxy is unfounded. If the humans could breed up a colony population of over 47 billion in just over 30 years andd we have technology that includes the Normandy (better than the Turians), humanity are the real risk here. That's more of the " Humans are special little snowflakes" crap than anything else. No way humanity could have that much population, and the rest of the galaxy have that little considering they have existed as a space faring society for thousands of years longer than we humans have been able to collectively read and write. The flaw in those numbers, as I see it, is that it doesn't tell us about the other turian and asari colonies. No data available. And nothing at all on salarians. Given that asari don't even bother to mate until their matriarch stage, I can somewhat believe that the population isn't all that high on the homeworld. |
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Post by opuspace on Sept 9, 2016 15:38:04 GMT
Thane clearly indicates that he doesn't want his son following the same "dark path" he did. He also explains his abandonment of his family as "doing his job" - He was always away on business. His job was to be an assassin for the Hanar. Also, it was a result of his job that his wife was killed. In that conversation Thane gives out a conflicting message - one claiming that the Drell are honored to serve the Hanar (given in the third person) and one describing the personal cost he has paid for having served the Hanar as an assassin for all of his life (delivered in the first person). It's up to the individual player which message they take as being the stronger one. This is what I'm saying with most of these moral dilemmas presented in the game - the developers wrote in conflicting messages regarding all of them. We're told the Krogan are so irrationally violent... then shown several Krogan (not only Wrex) who are clearly not quite so violent and prone to "reason." The relative strength of the two messages does change depending on whether or not you kill Wrex in ME1... but there is still some degree of countering this violent stereotype of the Krogan in all the games regardless. Even with Wreav in ME2, Shepard is still able to "reason" with him, even though Wreav's motivations for things are quite different than Wrex's. There are playthroughs where I choose to cure the genophage and other playthroughs where I don't. What determines what choice I make is what Shepard "believes" philosophically about the nature of things like individuality, dictatorship, feminine rights, etc. In that this moral dilemma can be validly viewed from so many different angles is what, I think, makes it a very well written part of the Trilogy. There is no absolute "right" answer to it. Of all the "reasons" though, the one I find the most used and least reasonable is the "fear" (expressed as an absolute certainty) that the Krogan will ultimately overrun all the other races in the entire galaxy if their reproductive biology is returned to it's natural state - even as the "expansion" of the human race in large numbers across the galaxy in a mere 30 odd years goes completely unnoticed by most players. But is Thane's personal desires for his son the result of Hanar exploitation or because Thane made personal mistakes that he holds himself responsible for. Like say, if Shepard doesn't want their child to go into the military because they don't want them to follow in their footsteps does that mean the Alliance was abusing Shep's desires to contribute back then or is it just Shepard's and only Shepard's personal choice alone? What is a more valid reason to sabotage the genophage than concern over what the Krogan will do when past actions and modern opinions support the expectations that the Krogan will attempt war again? Wrex and Bakara, Charr, and any other Krogan with a moderate temperament does not outweigh the dialogue from members of clan Urdnot and Weyrloc. There's a consistency in the damaging aspects of Krogan culture and entire planets have never recovered from their actions whereas humans have managed to keep their colony worlds intact and habitable. That's a major difference between Krogan and human expansion. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 15:42:51 GMT
That's more of the " Humans are special little snowflakes" crap than anything else. No way humanity could have that much population, and the rest of the galaxy have that little considering they have existed as a space faring society for thousands of years longer than we humans have been able to collectively read and write. The flaw in those numbers, as I see it, is that it doesn't tell us about the other turian and asari colonies. No data available. And nothing at all on salarians. Given that asari don't even bother to mate until their matriarch stage, I can somewhat believe that the population isn't all that high on the homeworld. True... no data are really available on other Turian or Asari colonies. Still, we don't really encounter any; and we do know that the Krogan were prevented from colonizing off of Tuchanka and even denied the right to have military spaceships (per EDI in ME3). We also know from that conversation that food is also a significant problem for them when living off of Tuchanka. It's unlikely that their entire population is much in excess of the 2.1 Billion listed. If we compare home planets only, then Earth is clearly the most populated at 11.4 Billion (more than 5 times the Krogan population on Tuchanka. While truly fertile Krogan females might produce more offspring than human females, the humans could make up for it by having a significantly higher number of fertile females in their population. Also, if it's a numbers game, now that they know Okeer's process - probably more efficient for the Krogan to tank breed fully grown Krogan anyways. They can create fully developed armies in 7 days. That means that the population growth of their "irrationally violent" males could be actually slower if the genophage were cured... allowing for a greater female influence, culturally and giving them more reason to be "content" with their natural growth rates into adulthood. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 9, 2016 19:19:17 GMT
Ever notice the only not brutal stereotypes of Krogans are the ones far away from their home world and basically alone?
Ever notice all the Krogans on their home planet fit the stereotypes to a T?
Ever notice how the Genophage didn't completely sterilize them only drastically reduced viable pregnancy. And yet rather then work together like any other race in the galaxy to rebuild and repopulate they instead fall back into killing each other. And putting their own clans above the well being of the entire species.
Despite the fact that every single new Krogan born is precious they still willingly kill each other for the slightest offenses.
The genophage is the only thing preventing those Krogan on the home world from multiplying and causing trouble out in the greater galaxy.
Wrex and Eve are the only ones who can change that. It might not take right away but many places around the world go back a generation or two and homosexuals not only couldn't get married but could very easily be attacked with no or minimal repercussions to the attackers.
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 9, 2016 19:33:59 GMT
... Ever notice all the Krogans on their home planet fit the stereotypes to a T? ... I guess you never noticed that isn't true. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2016 23:22:42 GMT
Despite detesting the pathologically stupid krogan, I've come around to curing their sterility plague if for no other reason than that I hate the original 3 Council races more, and want to point and laugh while a resurgent krogan eat all of them like the fools they so obviously are.
It's of course only a side benefit that the glorious quarian race then claims all the former turian worlds and builds a decadent dextro empire on the backs of its loyal robotic minions. We aren't in competition for the same resources as the krogan, and we aren't bombastically violent primitives like the turians, always looking for fights they've no business in. We can get along with the battletoads just fine until they inevitably nuke or starve themselves from existence.
Ammonia based volus should also be okay, so we've someone to do our taxes as well. We're set. Best of luck to the rest of you, though.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 10, 2016 1:41:06 GMT
... Ever notice all the Krogans on their home planet fit the stereotypes to a T? ... I guess you never noticed that isn't true. Really? The scientist wasn't upset that Wrex had him working on non weapon based research? The Urdnot Priest didn't say it was a good thing that they nuked their planet into a radiated ball of dirt? And praised how death makes everyone stronger? That the mechanic didn't shrug and basically say that Wrex will be strong enough to lead or he will be killed and someone else will take over. He doesn't really care which? Didn't the speaker from clan Wyerloc talk about once the cure is found only that clan would benefit. And they would multiply and kick start another Krogan rebellion this time wading in the blood of all other races? Didn't that one guy attack Grunt because he wouldn't accept his proposal? Was there not idol chatter around Tuchnunka that has Urdnot clan members talking about how they want to get off the planet so they can enact revenge on Salarians and Turians? |
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Post by Obadiah on Sept 10, 2016 2:29:49 GMT
I guess you never noticed that isn't true. Really? The scientist wasn't upset that Wrex had him working on non weapon based research? The Urdnot Priest didn't say it was a good thing that they nuked their planet into a radiated ball of dirt? And praised how death makes everyone stronger? That the mechanic didn't shrug and basically say that Wrex will be strong enough to lead or he will be killed and someone else will take over. He doesn't really care which? Didn't the speaker from clan Wyerloc talk about once the cure is found only that clan would benefit. And they would multiply and kick start another Krogan rebellion this time wading in the blood of all other races? Didn't that one guy attack Grunt because he wouldn't accept his proposal? Was there not idol chatter around Tuchnunka that has Urdnot clan members talking about how they want to get off the planet so they can enact revenge on Salarians and Turians? There are those conversations as you said, but there is also idle chatter about fathering children and the future. The mechanic shrugged about Wrex failing, but he didn't threaten anyone. The shopkeeper isn't aggressive, but Krogan on Tuchanka are obviously not fazed by violence. Of course, Eve is from Tuchanka. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Sept 10, 2016 2:45:21 GMT
Really? The scientist wasn't upset that Wrex had him working on non weapon based research? The Urdnot Priest didn't say it was a good thing that they nuked their planet into a radiated ball of dirt? And praised how death makes everyone stronger? That the mechanic didn't shrug and basically say that Wrex will be strong enough to lead or he will be killed and someone else will take over. He doesn't really care which? Didn't the speaker from clan Wyerloc talk about once the cure is found only that clan would benefit. And they would multiply and kick start another Krogan rebellion this time wading in the blood of all other races? Didn't that one guy attack Grunt because he wouldn't accept his proposal? Was there not idol chatter around Tuchnunka that has Urdnot clan members talking about how they want to get off the planet so they can enact revenge on Salarians and Turians? There are those conversations as you said, but there is also idle chatter about fathering children and the future. The mechanic shrugged about Wrex failing, but he didn't threaten anyone. The shopkeeper isn't aggressive, but Krogan Tuchanka are obviously not fazed by violence. Of course, Eve is from Tuchanka. There is a grand total of 1 conversation that I know of that speaks in set up. The one Krogan who thinks and isn't even sure he might have had a son. But that is just one small faction of life. Okear actually references this how babies are spoiled and soft because of the Genophage. Compared to how it should be with Krogan throwing away hundreds of kids to get a single strong one. |
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Post by straykat on Sept 10, 2016 3:02:01 GMT
On a sidenote, it was kind of fun watching an old ME panel discussion recently. Almost all the devs were unanimous in curing the Genophage. Except Dombrow funnily, who wrote a lot of it (he took another common choice -- "Only if you have Wrex.").
Funnily, he also chose saving the Quarians over both or the just the Geth.
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