zeratul12
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Post by zeratul12 on Apr 2, 2017 11:47:10 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I understand why the system wasn't put in this game. Ryder needed to be a more hopeful and inspiring character and making him an ass would wouldn't make sense for the story if Ryder was a self centred prick.
So they made it less about what Ryder 'does' and more about how they 'respond' to people. While Shepard was a great character his dialogue was always 'paragon' or 'renegade' with their own singular tone that can only be taken one way, while Ryder can respond with logic, emotion, instinct or professionally which I have enjoyed since some of Ryders instinct lines are bloody hilarious and make a much more organic character.
However despite this the Paragon and Renegade system has been a staple of the series and should make a come back in the sequel. The devs should keep the way you respond to people but give us the option to respond to it in a specific way. IE: Select the Logical option but choose a paragon and renegade variant.
What about you guys you think it should return?
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Post by vonuber on Apr 2, 2017 11:50:42 GMT
Nope. This is better as you don't end up with a schizophrenic character, nor a clear autowin button.
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Post by adelthorne on Apr 2, 2017 11:51:52 GMT
No this system is far better. Paragon was a real sick system.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 11:59:39 GMT
I thought it was quite restrictive in some ways, kind of like railroading you into a preconceived notion of what your Paragon or Renegade character should choose by basically informing you which is which. Even more nuanced things like opinions on and curing the genophage should have had their positions obscured in my opinion to maybe help people make up their own mind without picking the top or bottom option because that corresponds to their character.
That said this new '4 way' (my arse it is) system is not as good as it should have been in my opinion. For the most part all the options are too nice so playing an unhinged character would be more like playing as a schizophrenic that occasionally loses his shit and does bad things but still apparently cares about people than an actual renegade.
I don't know why they didn't go full circle with the Dragon Age system and have options for crew members to approve/disapprove of the things you do allowing them to possibly even leave your ship if you fall out of favour enough with them. The things I did to the Krogan in this game had Drack basically confront me and threaten to kick my head in which should have given me the option to either kick him off my ship or put a slug between his eyes or at the very least have him just walk off the team himself. Instead I as the leader have to pussy out and give him his 'space'.
I don't know if they are going to go forward with this personality wheel but if they do I hope to god in the future the options are a little more varied more often than 'joke' about it and agree or 'be serious' about it and agree.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 2, 2017 12:13:58 GMT
I'd prefer the P/R system not make a comeback. I was never a fan of ME's brand of the persuasion mechanic, and really, I don't see the need for a personality meter.
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Post by RussianGuyovich1313 on Apr 2, 2017 12:15:42 GMT
Good/Evil meter made sense in Star Wars. Real life isn't black and white. There are some exceptions sure, but froma narrative and writing perspective, this is better.
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Post by fraggle on Apr 2, 2017 12:23:15 GMT
Andromeda is great if people enjoy playing Paragon, and Paragon only. I don't necessarily need Paragon and Renegade back, but this game desperately needed more distinct tone choices. People who want to properly roleplay are fucked in MEA.
I also never get why people thought of Paragon and Renegade as black and white. Sure, could be seen like that if you play one or the other. Mix up both and you have a perfectly grey character. This system for me was all about choice and shaping Shepard along the way. I could play different Shepards if I wanted, with different motivations. Ryder doesn't have that depth to me. I mean, sure, it's a nice character and he grew on me, but that's all there is. It's nice.
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Post by zeratul12 on Apr 2, 2017 12:26:36 GMT
Andromeda is great if people enjoy playing Paragon, and Paragon only. I don't necessarily need Paragon and Renegade back, but this game desperately needed more distinct tone choices. People who want to properly roleplay are fucked in MEA. I also never get why people thought of Paragon and Renegade as black and white. Sure, could be seen like that if you play one or the other. Mix up both and you have a perfectly grey character. This system for me was all about choice and shaping Shepard along the way. I could play different Shepards if I wanted, with different motivations. Ryder doesn't have that depth to me. I mean, sure, it's a nice character and he grew on me, but that's all there is. It's nice. So you liked the new system but would have prefered if there were a few "renegade" style options mixed in aswell??
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Post by vilegrim on Apr 2, 2017 12:30:01 GMT
Nope. This is better as you don't end up with a schizophrenic character, nor a clear autowin button. I found in the trial at least that Ryder was an utterly bland boy scout with all the passion of a brick after a cocktail of Valium and hash. Tone didn't matter you just got a character even more boring than Capt America (which I thought was impossible, but hey) Apr 2, 2017 13:15:42 GMT 1 RussianGuyovich1313 said: Good/Evil meter made sense in Star Wars. Real life isn't black and white. There are some exceptions sure, but froma narrative and writing perspective, this is better. HOW? Sorry but a bland do gooder is uninteresting, the tones made no difference it 's 'I logically kiss ass' 'I emotionally kiss ass' no fire, neither rage or idealism, just the same bland niceness that infects me at least with apathy, where is the raging against the night? Where is calling the Initiative on it's BS? Where are the threats and intimidation, the pride and inspiration? ANY damn thing apart from Boy Scout.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 12:32:33 GMT
I feel the Paragon/Renegade system is tied to Shepard, and if they introduced it for Ryder aswell it would just be one more way to compare the two. I wouldn't mind if they fleshed out the tone system in DLC and a sequel though.
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Post by Fogg on Apr 2, 2017 12:38:58 GMT
I prefer the new system.
Two side notes:
1) I have a theory that people that choose rational/professional options experience better writing than those who click passionate/casual
2) Does some auto diologue gets affected by your choices, like in DA2?
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Post by fraggle on Apr 2, 2017 12:39:52 GMT
Andromeda is great if people enjoy playing Paragon, and Paragon only. I don't necessarily need Paragon and Renegade back, but this game desperately needed more distinct tone choices. People who want to properly roleplay are fucked in MEA. I also never get why people thought of Paragon and Renegade as black and white. Sure, could be seen like that if you play one or the other. Mix up both and you have a perfectly grey character. This system for me was all about choice and shaping Shepard along the way. I could play different Shepards if I wanted, with different motivations. Ryder doesn't have that depth to me. I mean, sure, it's a nice character and he grew on me, but that's all there is. It's nice. So you liked the new system but would have prefered if there were a few "renegade" style options mixed in aswell?? That's basically it. I did like it to a certain extent. I knew they'd move on from Paragon and Renegade and I was perfectly fine with it and looked forward to a new system. But what we got in reality is just "4 shades or Paragon", how someone on here said it accurately. I know this system from Dragon Age, but even there it's with more distinct tone choices, especially in DA2. It's not that I can't live with it since before playing ME I was always a goody-two-shoes character, but ME gave me distinct choices and it was actually fun to mix those up in my playthroughs. Shaping a character with distinct options is great to have and can only benefit a protagonist's development. Others are always fine with playing Paragon, and that's okay. But it wouldn't really hurt to add some more tone choices for those who prefer to play someone a little more exciting. I'm sure they could've come up with sensible "renegade-y" tones that would still fit with MEA's story. People always say Renegade Shep felt like a psycho, but to me, most of the interrupts we got in MEA felt more psycho. It didn't feel that good to use them when Ryder is being presented as the nice guy all the time.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 2, 2017 12:40:42 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I understand why the system wasn't put in this game. Ryder needed to be a more hopeful and inspiring character and making him an ass would wouldn't make sense for the story if Ryder was a self centred prick. So they made it less about what Ryder 'does' and more about how they 'respond' to people. While Shepard was a great character his dialogue was always 'paragon' or 'renegade' with their own singular tone that can only be taken one way, while Ryder can respond with logic, emotion, instinct or professionally which I have enjoyed since some of Ryders instinct lines are bloody hilarious and make a much more organic character. However despite this the Paragon and Renegade system has been a staple of the series and should make a come back in the sequel. The devs should keep the way you respond to people but give us the option to respond to it in a specific way. IE: Select the Logical option but choose a paragon and renegade variant. What about you guys you think it should return? Paragon and Renegade in the trilogy was a mess because they could never decide what it actually stood for. Half the time, it was politics, but the other half of the time, it was just tone. This led to some awkward points in ME2 where- in pursuit of that P/R consistency- you'd actually flip-flop on a position multiple times mid-conversation. While I think an ideological/political morality system for dialogue has promise- it can add to thematic consistency in a game and help track/measure overall reputations- I'm kind of glad MEA didn't because it allowed them to avoid having 'tone' tied into 'politics.' I much prefer Ryder having thematic differences such as 'adventurer' vs 'professional' that don't punish me for character consistency over different political contexts, compared to ME's 'mean human-centric' vs 'nice xenophile.' That's not to say MEA couldn't have done it- I think that since Ryder effectively introduces the Initiative to Andromeda their reputation/politics could have mattered- but I don't think we're missing bad things.
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Post by toomanyclouds on Apr 2, 2017 12:41:42 GMT
I find Ryder boring, but I also don't want Paragon/Renegade back the way it was. One, it encouraged an odd way of roleplaying because even if you were trying to do a hybrid character, you had to make sure to "charge up" at least one good/evil bar so you didn't miss out on certain plot-important options. Two, it often gave me an "easy out" when making difficult moral decision. Oh well, my character leans more towards Paragon, guess I'll choose that. It also meant the writing team decided for you what the "nice" option was.
I think Ryders should actually get their four options in conversations more often. I realise this is a lot of work, but it would flesh them out. It would also be nice if they were a bit more differentiated. At the moment the answers felt more in the range of "Hell yeah (emotional) / Yes of course (logical) / Yes (professional) / Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in! (funny)" Not really a "I'll do it for now, but you'll regret this" or even a "it's my duty and privilege to help you with this", you know, something with a stark personality. Then again, Ryder is 22. Lots of room for development there.
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Post by Dean The Not-so Young on Apr 2, 2017 12:44:41 GMT
Andromeda is great if people enjoy playing Paragon, and Paragon only. I don't necessarily need Paragon and Renegade back, but this game desperately needed more distinct tone choices. People who want to properly roleplay are fucked in MEA. I also never get why people thought of Paragon and Renegade as black and white. Sure, could be seen like that if you play one or the other. Mix up both and you have a perfectly grey character. This system for me was all about choice and shaping Shepard along the way. I could play different Shepards if I wanted, with different motivations. Ryder doesn't have that depth to me. I mean, sure, it's a nice character and he grew on me, but that's all there is. It's nice. So you liked the new system but would have prefered if there were a few "renegade" style options mixed in aswell?? In terms of decision options, I think 'Renegade' had plenty of offerings. There were a number of 'greater good'/'good is not nice' options for moral decisions. What I think Andromeda lacks is the tonal narrative to live up to that sort of attitude. You can make greater good choices, but how often do you get to reflect that as a character ideal/motive? DA:I, in my view, worked this the best with the 'direct/aggressive' tone. You don't need to be a sociopath to be direct, curt, or less than idealistic. But it absolutely does help to be consistently gruff/calloused when you make those less-than-nice decisions.
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Post by Cannibal on Apr 2, 2017 12:44:57 GMT
Before this game came out I was all in favor of getting rid of paragon/renegade for a dialogue system more similar to something out of Dragon age.
But what we got wasn't that, it was four flavors of paragon. Makes for an uninteresting main character when every option is being nice.
Bioware need to just use the dragon age 2 system going forward in all games.
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Post by fraggle on Apr 2, 2017 12:48:22 GMT
I find Ryder boring, but I also don't want Paragon/Renegade back the way it was. One, it encouraged an odd way of roleplaying because even if you were trying to do a hybrid character, you had to make sure to "charge up" at least one good/evil bar so you didn't miss out on certain plot-important options. Two, it often gave me an "easy out" when making difficult moral decision. Oh well, my character leans more towards Paragon, guess I'll choose that. It also meant the writing team decided for you what the "nice" option was. I think Ryders should actually get their four options in conversations more often. I realise this is a lot of work, but it would flesh them out. It would also be nice if they were a bit more differentiated. At the moment the answers felt more in the range of "Hell yeah (emotional) / Yes of course (logical) / Yes (professional) / Just when I think I'm out, they pull me back in! (funny)" Not really a "I'll do it for now, but you'll regret this" or even a "it's my duty and privilege to help you with this", you know, something with a stark personality. Then again, Ryder is 22. Lots of room for development there. I agree with what you said, however I want to also say that while yes, Paragon/Renegade persuasion choices were insta-win buttons and gave an easy way out, at least people had the choice to use them or use the regular dialogue. On my 3rd run I used non-persuasive dialogues and had a blast to discover what that led to.
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Post by pantherdane on Apr 2, 2017 12:51:08 GMT
Maybe next game ot will be used. This one hes either down to business or following his heart.
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 2, 2017 12:53:38 GMT
No, it shouldn't return.
Too many times in the original trilogy, I had to opt out of saying what I wanted to say, because I was more concerned with filling up a "good guy" or "bad guy" meter.
This new system allows you to say what you want, which provides a more organic feel to the conversations.
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 2, 2017 12:54:37 GMT
Oh, and the new system lets you say:
"I am gonna fuck your shit up!"
Without worrying about the consequences or some arbitrary red bad guy meter filling up
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Post by zipzap2000 on Apr 2, 2017 12:56:38 GMT
Theres enough paragon in the game to turn Kett into care bears just add a few ruthless options in there and we're good.
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Post by zaefkol on Apr 2, 2017 13:03:22 GMT
There should be more assholeish responses, but the paragon/renegade system should stay dead.
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Post by vilegrim on Apr 2, 2017 13:03:24 GMT
No, it shouldn't return. Too many times in the original trilogy, I had to opt out of saying what I wanted to say, because I was more concerned with filling up a "good guy" or "bad guy" meter. This new system allows you to say what you want, which provides a more organic feel to the conversations. WE need options apart from good guy, I have found NO options to be the Cortez with a railgun that should be lurking as the darkside of this game, if you are going to do a game about colonialism at least give the option to actually be, well, colonial. DA:I had the same problem, you had Lawful Stupid and Lawful Good, where is my Lawful Evil, you know the actually interesting alignments.
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Post by zeratul12 on Apr 2, 2017 13:34:43 GMT
So you liked the new system but would have prefered if there were a few "renegade" style options mixed in aswell?? That's basically it. I did like it to a certain extent. I knew they'd move on from Paragon and Renegade and I was perfectly fine with it and looked forward to a new system. But what we got in reality is just "4 shades or Paragon", how someone on here said it accurately. I know this system from Dragon Age, but even there it's with more distinct tone choices, especially in DA2. It's not that I can't live with it since before playing ME I was always a goody-two-shoes character, but ME gave me distinct choices and it was actually fun to mix those up in my playthroughs. Shaping a character with distinct options is great to have and can only benefit a protagonist's development. Others are always fine with playing Paragon, and that's okay. But it wouldn't really hurt to add some more tone choices for those who prefer to play someone a little more exciting. I'm sure they could've come up with sensible "renegade-y" tones that would still fit with MEA's story. People always say Renegade Shep felt like a psycho, but to me, most of the interrupts we got in MEA felt more psycho. It didn't feel that good to use them when Ryder is being presented as the nice guy all the time. Yeah I could never play Shepard as renegade as it didn't fit what the type of character I wanted to play as. "4 shades of paragon' I like how you put this and I agree but if that is a case should they add 4 shades of renegade then?
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Post by vilegrim on Apr 2, 2017 13:37:58 GMT
So you liked the new system but would have prefered if there were a few "renegade" style options mixed in aswell?? That's basically it. I did like it to a certain extent. I knew they'd move on from Paragon and Renegade and I was perfectly fine with it and looked forward to a new system. But what we got in reality is just "4 shades or Paragon", how someone on here said it accurately. I know this system from Dragon Age, but even there it's with more distinct tone choices, especially in DA2. It's not that I can't live with it since before playing ME I was always a goody-two-shoes character, but ME gave me distinct choices and it was actually fun to mix those up in my playthroughs. Shaping a character with distinct options is great to have and can only benefit a protagonist's development. Others are always fine with playing Paragon, and that's okay. But it wouldn't really hurt to add some more tone choices for those who prefer to play someone a little more exciting. I'm sure they could've come up with sensible "renegade-y" tones that would still fit with MEA's story. People always say Renegade Shep felt like a psycho, but to me, most of the interrupts we got in MEA felt more psycho. It didn't feel that good to use them when Ryder is being presented as the nice guy all the time. Since this game is about colonialism let us act like it. Genocide, pillage, enslavement, not this apologia for a horrendous historic evil.
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