obatalaryder
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Post by obatalaryder on Apr 2, 2017 23:27:13 GMT
Since this game is about colonialism let us act like it. Genocide, pillage, enslavement, not this apologia for a horrendous historic evil. Why? The reason those atrocities happened was because the people back then didn't know any better and were evil vile people. Didn't know any better? This is incredibly wrong.
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Bann Duncan
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Post by Bann Duncan on Apr 2, 2017 23:39:30 GMT
So you liked the new system but would have prefered if there were a few "renegade" style options mixed in aswell?? In terms of decision options, I think 'Renegade' had plenty of offerings. There were a number of 'greater good'/'good is not nice' options for moral decisions. IMO these were the real 'Renegade' options and the downright evil ones were just 'renegade' due to the simplifications of a two-tier morality system.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2017 0:08:23 GMT
I agree I want my face to start falling off again because I said robots aren't people or headbutted a krogan douchebag.
Seriously, that system was dumb. It couldn't decide if it was ideological or tonal, so you ended up with schizophrenic choices that ultimately rendered it meaningless. That ME1 and 2 also incentivized min-maxing either all upper or lower right so that one could use the I win button more often made neutral or mixed choices (which were often required for an ideologically consistent character) categorically suboptimal.
However, what I hear of MEA's system (i.e. 4 flavours of doormat Paragon) is no better, and probably worse.
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 3, 2017 0:15:37 GMT
I agree I want my face to start falling off again because I said robots aren't people or headbutted a krogan douchebag. Seriously, that system was dumb. It couldn't decide if it was ideological or tonal, so you ended up with schizophrenic choices that ultimately rendered it meaningless. That ME1 and 2 also incentivized min-maxing either all upper or lower right so that one could use the I win button more often made neutral or mixed choices (which were often required for an ideologically consistent character) categorically suboptimal. However, what I hear of MEA's system (i.e. 4 flavours of doormat Paragon) is no better, and probably worse. Whatever issue people may have with the lines in MEA has nothing to do with the system itself. With no real morality system and just having tracking of your responses, you can conceivably set up whatever personality you want without being saddled by a meter that unlocks red and blue lines. As one who is actually playing this game, I don't believe it's worse at all. In ME1, I cheated the system with the Lorik Qui-in so I could unlock both the paragon and renegade-specific quests. I always thought it was kind of silly that the P/R system was actually used to unlock missions at all. Like, does Hackett divine that I'm being naughty?
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Zatche
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Post by Zatche on Apr 3, 2017 0:28:58 GMT
I never much liked the Paragon/Renegade system. Renegade was always a weird mix between morally ambiguous and psychopathic. And I always felt the psychopathic options were a bit out of place. Always seemed more for the lulz. And I didn't like the morally ambiguous being lumped in with the same label as the evil options.
But I understand the want for more options to disagree more with the people youre talking to. Like, it wouldn't be out of place at all for you to be able play Ryder as a bit dickish or insensitive at times to your companions, rather than only to Tann or Addison.
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KLGChaos
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Post by KLGChaos on Apr 3, 2017 3:46:46 GMT
They just need more options for different attitudes that aren't tied to some arbitrary meter. So one should feel forced to go full paragon or renegade in fear of conversation checks failing and instead follow how they actually feel at the time. They can be a hard ass to enemies, a softy to friends, etc. More choice is good and the old system felt like you were forced to make certain choices to get your meter to move in a certain direction. And not every action is that black and white.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 3, 2017 3:51:42 GMT
I never much liked the Paragon/Renegade system. Renegade was always a weird mix between morally ambiguous and psychopathic. And I always felt the psychopathic options were a bit out of place. Always seemed more for the lulz. And I didn't like the morally ambiguous being lumped in with the same label as the evil options. But I understand the want for more options to disagree more with the people youre talking to. Like, it wouldn't be out of place at all for you to be able play Ryder as a bit dickish or insensitive at times to your companions, rather than only to Tann or Addison. I never got why Ryder acts that way to Tann early on. He never said anything derogatory to Ryder like Addison nor was he blatantly trying to treat Ryder like a puppet. The guy is obviously under a lot of pressure being flung into his position like that and aside from his particular views about the Krogan seems to be handling himself rather well. Yet Ryder comes off as bit of jerk to him.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Apr 3, 2017 3:55:58 GMT
While Paragon/Renegade was amusing, it wasn't realistic or even practical. That system was merely a leftover of the Dark/Light system in KotOR 1 that BioWare decided to stick with. In Star Wars, for obvious reasons, having clear differences between Dark and Light makes sense. For Mass Effect? Not so much. My other issue with Paragon/Renegade is it really forced you to either be "good" Shepard or "bad" Shepard the entire time. Otherwise, you'd be locked out of content or you'd just be bipolar and range from being nice but then being a dick at random. I couldn't take half of the Renegade options seriously though.
This new approach just is more manageable, more realistic, and provides more personal flare. We are the hero, so ultimately we are going to do the "right" thing anyway. Having various shades of choices allows for more customization while not having the issue of having starkly different outcomes. It also means Ryder is never completely out of character doing something that's beyond stupid. Yes, you can't be a dick anymore. Then again, Shepard probably should have never had that option to start.
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luketrevelyan
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Post by luketrevelyan on Apr 3, 2017 5:05:12 GMT
Neither system is all that great IMO. They could learn a lot from DA. I'd love more variety and disagreement rather than 2 to 4 ways to agree with someone. But the old system was annoying the way it made you want to always choose one over the other. If you go back to DAO there was so much dialogue variety. Even DA2 and DAI are much better than any ME game.
I think BioWare is becoming too afraid of honoring our choices to the point they won't give us interesting ones anymore.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Apr 3, 2017 7:29:52 GMT
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 3, 2017 7:45:09 GMT
Neither system is all that great IMO. They could learn a lot from DA. I'd love more variety and disagreement rather than 2 to 4 ways to agree with someone. But the old system was annoying the way it made you want to always choose one over the other. If you go back to DAO there was so much dialogue variety. Even DA2 and DAI are much better than any ME game. I think BioWare is becoming too afraid of honoring our choices to the point they won't give us interesting ones anymore. Only thing with DAO though was that there were potentially multiple lines hidden behind coercion. I'm not so sure how much they could do with that for voiced PC's. Inquisition kind of does this with its perk system, though the dialogue perks are sort of few and far between. Honestly, I just like having a bunch of options, with special options available under certain conditions. For example, you may not have an option that actually gives information based on something the character investigated and learned.
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Post by ticktak77 on Apr 3, 2017 20:11:29 GMT
No, it shouldn't return. Too many times in the original trilogy, I had to opt out of saying what I wanted to say, because I was more concerned with filling up a "good guy" or "bad guy" meter. This new system allows you to say what you want, which provides a more organic feel to the conversations. WE need options apart from good guy, I have found NO options to be the Cortez with a railgun that should be lurking as the darkside of this game, if you are going to do a game about colonialism at least give the option to actually be, well, colonial. DA:I had the same problem, you had Lawful Stupid and Lawful Good, where is my Lawful Evil, you know the actually interesting alignments. Fair point. As someone who generally always plays these sorts of games as the ideal good guy, it didn't actually occur to me that the bad guy / ruthless / asshole options are very limited in this game
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Just a flip of the coin.
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Post by Sanunes on Apr 3, 2017 20:21:10 GMT
The paragon/renegade system after the first three games is still far more broken for the game then what this one is after only one game. I hope BioWare tweaks the system for if they remove it like people seem to want it just means another broken system will be implemented and people will want this system back.
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Post by chawktrick on Apr 3, 2017 20:30:33 GMT
I like the ME:A system better, but I think it could use improvement moving forward. Often times, when given four options for responding, some of them appear too similar and there isn't enough to really differentiate between them.
Furthermore, I like the idea that my dialogue or decisions in a given moment will have weight, rather than my choices over time. The Paragon/Renegade system rewarded the latter and it felt too constrictive.
I like that my Ryder can be a sympathetic hardass and that, ultimately, I can still put together a great ending for myself. It's very similar to The Witcher 3 which largely based the end game on what you did in key moments, rather than ALL your decisions over a given time.
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Karin Davis
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Got to be KD!
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Karin Davis on Apr 3, 2017 20:38:04 GMT
Tell that to my socks. Or my key-chain. Paragon/Renegade was a great system for a Spectre. You were above the law, and you get the job done.
Just like in real-life, if I don't like someone's attitude or whatever, chances I'm taking a "renegade" approach to you. Being nice only gets you so far.
Bioware stated, again, that that system would live and die with the Trilogy. It only worked with the Spectre, and I concur.
How much of a hassle was it to get all 3 sides of morality in Fallout 3? Pretty much a hassle. I always played it as a good person. Doesn't let you experience everything though.
Current system is great, old system was great for the Trilogy. They made the game the way it is, I approve wholeheartedly and feel they shouldn't change anything involving the universe they created. It's their vision, not ours.
We just come to play in all the glory.
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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 3, 2017 20:44:26 GMT
I don't think we need a paragon/renegade system back. I was all for removing it.
However, that did not mean I didn't want the rpotagonist not to be able to express different opinions anymore (which is unfortunately what happened).
The ME:A dialogue wheel is a joke. No matter what I choose, Ryder will always essentially say the same thing, just in different ways. That's not what a dialogue system should be aboout IMO. This is especially jarring in ME:A because I feel that I actually want to say something different in a lot of circumstances. For example, I have to be best friends with everyone in my crew, the only thing I get to decide is whether I give them logical or emotional support. Why can't I be antagonistic towards certain people or at least actions? There are lot's of situations where I wanted to get more hostile towards people and just cannot be. That's frustrating.
I don't want the system back where certain dialogue options are greyed out because I didn't amass enough paragon/renegade points but I do want a system where my character is able to portray different personality styles. This used to be a role playing game series after all.
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Post by Warrick on Apr 3, 2017 21:02:42 GMT
Lots of people are saying, I don't want P/R, but I want wildly different lines and decisions. You should realize that's what the P/R system guarantees.
There were mistakes, like relating politics to P/R in ME1 (linking renegade to be "humanity first"). Or like making the blue/red options automatic wins. But the very existence of the system forces the developer to provide different lines and decisions. (BTW - people are always saying that in ME1 Shepard said the same line regardless of option picked. This is a bit like the people who claim they beheaded Leliana to complain about her cameo in DA2 - exaggerating to make a point. It was a minority of lines due to corner cutting. You should go and play two ME1 runs: picking all top right and then all bottom right options and come back and say the game played out the same.)
When your system is a blur of overlapping attitudes, the result often either leaves little room for role playing (Geralt) or comes off as bland (Inquisitor). It's a nice idea in theory - mature grown up shades of grey morality and so on - but it's misplaced. The practical outcome is less fun.
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