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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 13:06:03 GMT
I hear you. I had a lot of complains about MEA but we gotta remember that there aren't any other companies that make games like Bioware does, and if everybody keeps shitting on them we won't get the games we wished for, ever. yes, but if we ignore and pretend that, for example bad writing is not bad writing, and crap is not crap, then we will not get games we wished for either. Objectively Andromeda is weakest BW game up to date, because they somehow managed to screw up two most important things that made all their other games great - character and dialogue writing. Everything can be forgiven and overlooked if those two were on par with previous BW games, because that is what BW RPG essence lies in, but with Andromeda - there is no excuses. Think of it this way - if new season of Game of Thrones was getting a story and character cast of My Little Pony, it would be a crap Game of Thrones. Not because MLP is bad, but because from GoT ppl naturally expect GoT. However, there is no way to really analyze either characters or dialogue objectively. Every post about whether or not these points are good or bad or a mix of both IS subjective opinion. Constructive criticism, by definition, offers suggestions for ways to improve... it doesn't just rip the develop for "sucking" at it. Offering constructive criticism is not any more objective nor is it "forgiving."; however, it at least focuses on improvements (in the opinion of the poster). It would be far more peaceful around here and, IMO, more likely to get positive results from Bioware if people here would focus less on ripping each other up for being of different opinions about things in the game and focus less on ripping up Bioware for their mistakes and focus ONLY on posting suggestions for improvements they can make.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 4, 2017 13:18:56 GMT
yes, but if we ignore and pretend that, for example bad writing is not bad writing, and crap is not crap, then we will not get games we wished for either. Objectively Andromeda is weakest BW game up to date, because they somehow managed to screw up two most important things that made all their other games great - character and dialogue writing. Everything can be forgiven and overlooked if those two were on par with previous BW games, because that is what BW RPG essence lies in, but with Andromeda - there is no excuses. Think of it this way - if new season of Game of Thrones was getting a story and character cast of My Little Pony, it would be a crap Game of Thrones. Not because MLP is bad, but because from GoT ppl naturally expect GoT. However, there is no way to really analyze either characters or dialogue objectively. Every post about whether or not these points are good or bad or a mix of both IS subjective opinion. Constructive criticism, by definition, offers suggestions for ways to improve... it doesn't just rip the develop for "sucking" at it. Offering constructive criticism is not any more objective nor is it "forgiving."; however, it at least focuses on improvements (in the opinion of the poster). It would be far more peaceful around here and, IMO, more likely to get positive results from Bioware if people here would focus less on ripping each other up for being of different opinions about things in the game and focus less on ripping up Bioware for their mistakes and focus ONLY on posting suggestions for improvements they can make. While it is technically impossible to analyze characters and dialogues objectively in a mathematical, quantitative sense of things, there are still ways to form what can be considered an objective opinion for a given material. So claiming that bad writing can't be called bad because it can't be reviewed in quantitative manner is nothing but rhetoric of a last stand to defend the game from valid criticism.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 13:25:58 GMT
However, there is no way to really analyze either characters or dialogue objectively. Every post about whether or not these points are good or bad or a mix of both IS subjective opinion. Constructive criticism, by definition, offers suggestions for ways to improve... it doesn't just rip the develop for "sucking" at it. Offering constructive criticism is not any more objective nor is it "forgiving."; however, it at least focuses on improvements (in the opinion of the poster). It would be far more peaceful around here and, IMO, more likely to get positive results from Bioware if people here would focus less on ripping each other up for being of different opinions about things in the game and focus less on ripping up Bioware for their mistakes and focus ONLY on posting suggestions for improvements they can make. While it is technically impossible to analyze characters and dialogues objectively in a mathematical, quantitative sense of things, there are still ways to form what can be considered an objective opinion for a given material. So claiming that bad writing can't be called bad because it can't be reviewed in quantitative manner is nothing but rhetoric of a last stand to defend the game from valid criticism. In your opinion - because where did I say that "bad writing can't be called bad writing." Read again... because I didn't say anything even remotely close to that in my post. I'm not even "defending the game" anywhere in that post, let alone making a "last ditch effort" to do so. What you extrapolate out of what I wrote in your own head IS purely subjective. The same goes with the dialogue in the game. Bad writing can be objectively analyzed from several angles. Grammar, for instance, can be objectively analyzed for following or not following certain rules. Story structure can also be analyzed rather objectively. Whether or not a character is interesting, however, cannot be objectively analyzed because "interest levels" are based solely on subjective opinions. Constructive criticism can be also subjective in nature. By definition, however, it is "constructive" not "destructive." IMO, most of the criticisms I see here only amount to destructive criticism of the game and offer nothing of value to Bioware to improve for the future.
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Post by timebean on Apr 4, 2017 13:55:58 GMT
Meh...I like a little snark and the occasional explosion of nuttiness on the forums.
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Post by myalzalean on Apr 4, 2017 14:01:16 GMT
I am enjoying the game, well not so much the boring side quests, but I am fine with the writing. I am still able to relate to my Ryder and develop friendships and relationships with the various characters, just like I did in every other Mass Effect game.
Sure the game has plot holes (what game doesn't?) but it hasn't by any means made the game unplayable for me. And you know what? That's okay.
Other people may not have had the same experiences in the game or share my opinion and that's okay too.
I think part of the problem in today's society is that somehow if you are in the majority of people who share the same opinion then you are right while those who are in the minority with differing opinions are somehow wrong.
Likewise, too much time is spent trying to justify why one person's opinion is more "right" or valid than the opinion of someone else that we lose sight of the fact that we are all different people with different tastes, likes, dislikes, expectations, priorities, etc.
I think we all like to have our opinions heard and validated, but we are spending way too much time trying to make a case for our own opinions and then getting all defensive and butt hurt when anyone disagrees with us, and then finally devolving into personal attacks.
The more a topic gets to more 50/50 split the more polarizing that topic becomes and therefore the more passionate and emotional the discussion becomes. Look no further than the forums for this game and compare it to the political landscape of just about every country right now and you will see what I am talking about.
In the end though, we are all on the same team, we are all fans, and more importantly customers, who love the Mass Effect franchise or we wouldn't be on here in the first place.
I believe that the OP was trying to say that we should unite and provide the best constructive criticism to Bioware/EA without coming off like whiners, flamers, and trolls.
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Post by chugster on Apr 4, 2017 14:02:23 GMT
Meh...I like a little snark and the occasional explosion of nuttiness on the forums. As do I...I could do without some of the bile and diatribe though
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 14:03:01 GMT
I hear you. I had a lot of complains about MEA but we gotta remember that there aren't any other companies that make games like Bioware does, and if everybody keeps shitting on them we won't get the games we wished for, ever. +1 If the only companies that get praised are the ones that achieve those praises through cutting different development corners than the one Bio cuts -and trust me, they ALL cut corners - we'll end up with losing the subgenre that BioWARE championed for twenty years pretty much single-handedly. Nobody else makes games with customizable, flexible protagonist, accompanied by a team, voiced dialogues and decent fairly modern graphics, playable on PC. You show me anyone else who does that and compare Bio's efforts against them... sure, I will listen. But now, just like in 1998, BiOWARE still stands alone. For a little while Obsidian mirrored it with KOTOR2 and NWN2, but they were squeezed out of business, and now do indie developments that are behind the times. Wanna Bio end up the same way? I don't.
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Post by chugster on Apr 4, 2017 14:03:45 GMT
I believe that the OP was trying to say that we should unite and provide the best constructive criticism to Bioware/EA without coming off like whiners, flamers, and trolls. I'm glad to see some people understand. Thank you
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 14:08:38 GMT
Meh...I like a little snark and the occasional explosion of nuttiness on the forums. I thought I was the only one. Personally I believe a thread just isn't right unless one person is calling another a cunt. So allow me to make this thread right, timebean you're a cunt!
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Post by projectpatdc on Apr 4, 2017 14:09:18 GMT
so... what exactly makes you think that you are so special to warrant an entire topic about yourself?.. ugh somebody, pour me some Ryncol! That's your response after a well thought out post? Are you always a prick or just on the forums? Come on
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Post by Arcian on Apr 4, 2017 14:16:14 GMT
Quite a few people on here have accused me of being a BW/EA fanboy, posting negative comments to anyone criticizing MEA or Bioware. This is untrue, please note the following 2 complaints: Complaint 1: "Bioware, your facial animations are not good at all, looking like minimal effort was used. Could you please let us know if/when and how you intend to fix this. This can be quite immersion breaking ingame. Also your MP weapons/powers feel underwhelming, will you be doing balance patches?" Complaint 2: "GRRRR...BIOWER IS TEH SUKK...the facial animashuns gif me CANCUR...MP SUCKS BALLS....fecking EA...gimme a fecking reeffund...DERP DERP DERP!!!!!" Now Complaint 1 is great, please post stuff like this on BW's Twitter and Reddit, where the actual Devs will see it. Complaint 2, whilst an exaggeration, is what I see alot of on these boards, overly negative and put in a place that the Devs wont see...not that it would be of any use if they did see it. When i see people posting 'Complaint 2' type posts I comment, trying to put across having PATIENCE and waiting to see if Bioware fix things. I dont mind saying I am a fan of Bioware, yes every game they have released has had issues but I have enjoyed them all and got lots of value for money out of them. That is not to say that they shouldnt be doing everything in their power to improve this and future titles. I just wish people would not be so negative, it is just a game at the end of the day. Thank you for reading this. Hopefully people will stop saying that I say 'dont criticize BW/MEA' when I have never, ever posted that on any post here on BSN. Mass Effect Andromeda is a flaming bag of turds. Fite me, OP.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 14:16:34 GMT
that poll you reffer to means absolutely nothing except that Andromeda is more favorably received on this exact forum and this forum alone, which is by its nature would hold a higher concentration of fanboys. I feel almost sad for you to needing me explain things like that... Explain what? That you haven't grasped the rather different concepts of "fact" and "opinion"? Because you've explained that quite clearly. I'll try again... Cambridge English Dictionary:"Objectively" - adverbDefinition - "in a way that is not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings; fairly"
Example - " Jurors must weigh the evidence in the case objectively." dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/objectivelyFrom this definition, we can clearly infer that the word "objectively" refers solely to "fact". What you have stated - "Objectively Andromeda is weakest BW game up to date, because they somehow managed to screw up two most important things that made all their other games great - character and dialogue writing." - is quite obviously an "opinion". I am not trying to change your mind, or say that your opinion is wrong. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and it is very much within your right to express said opinion on forums such as this. I am simply informing you that it is incorrect to present your opinion as a "fact", as you have done by employing the use of the adverb "objectively". An opinion, which is what you have presented, is very much a "subjective" matter. It relies upon the individuals personal beliefs and feelings, your beliefs and feelings appearing to be that you find Andromeda worse than Bioware's previous games. These beliefs and feelings are neither right nor wrong, they are simply yours. However, if we refer to our universally agreed definition of "objectively", we can see that for a statement to be "objective", it must not be influenced by personal beliefs and feelings. Hence, it is impossible to state as fact that "Andromeda is weakest BW game up to date". You admit that the prevailing opinion on this forum (evidenced by the aforementioned poll) is that Andromeda is not the weakest Mass Effect game. This heavily implies that the majority of respondents to the poll believe there is a Mass Effect game which is weaker than Andromeda. Given that every Mass Effect game so far has been made by Bioware, it surely follows that, in the view of this forum, Andromeda is in fact not "weakest BW game up to date". It is, of course, impossible to state as fact that "Andromeda is not the weakest Bioware game to date". Although, were we to present our two differing opinions as opposing theories, ie. "Andromeda is the weakest" vs "Andromeda is not the weakest", it would be possible to use said poll as evidence to disprove the former theory, and support the latter, but I digress. As an aside, this forum contains people who are fans of Bioware games. (Incidentally, not all of these are "fanboys". There are some "fangirls" as well.) In the context of your argument, this makes no impact on whether they would prefer Andromeda to other Bioware games, since while they are more likely to enjoy Mass Effect Andromeda, they are also equally more likely to enjoy every other Bioware game to which you are comparing it. Any questions?
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Post by nanotm on Apr 4, 2017 14:28:51 GMT
it doesn't help that sarah ryder always sounds like a huffy teenager who's just stopped crying long enough to give a half hearted attempt at a rousing line....
even if you ignore the dodgy animations (many of which don't fit the situation) having your character meander about in a dejected state like the entire world hates her when the majority of the people she interacts with are clearly very positive about her having the job...
lets look at the storyline, she's supposed to be in her late 20's when she went into cryostasis yet has been depicted as a pouty teenager with anxiety issues on screen..... it just doesn't work well at all, and that's ignoring the closeups where you have to watch those dodgy facial movements....
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Post by chugster on Apr 4, 2017 14:30:52 GMT
Mass Effect Andromeda is a flaming bag of turds. Fite me, OP. Actually its a video game. But if you wish to fight I shall meet you on the dueling field at first light...Carnifax's at dawn
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 4, 2017 14:31:29 GMT
that poll you reffer to means absolutely nothing except that Andromeda is more favorably received on this exact forum and this forum alone, which is by its nature would hold a higher concentration of fanboys. I feel almost sad for you to needing me explain things like that... Explain what? That you haven't grasped the rather different concepts of "fact" and "opinion"? Because you've explained that quite clearly. I'll try again... Cambridge English Dictionary:"Objectively" - adverbDefinition - "in a way that is not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings; fairly"
Example - " Jurors must weigh the evidence in the case objectively." dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/objectivelyFrom this definition, we can clearly infer that the word "objectively" refers solely to "fact". What you have stated - "Objectively Andromeda is weakest BW game up to date, because they somehow managed to screw up two most important things that made all their other games great - character and dialogue writing." - is quite obviously an "opinion". I am not trying to change your mind, or say that your opinion is wrong. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, and it is very much within your right to express said opinion on forums such as this. I am simply informing you that it is incorrect to present your opinion as a "fact", as you have done by employing the use of the adverb "objectively". An opinion, which is what you have presented, is very much a "subjective" matter. It relies upon the individuals personal beliefs and feelings, your beliefs and feelings appearing to be that you find Andromeda worse than Bioware's previous games. These beliefs and feelings are neither right nor wrong, they are simply yours. However, if we refer to our universally agreed definition of "objectively", we can see that for a statement to be "objective", it must not be influenced by personal beliefs and feelings. Hence, it is impossible to state as fact that "Andromeda is weakest BW game up to date". You admit that the prevailing opinion on this forum (evidenced by the aforementioned poll) is that Andromeda is not the weakest Mass Effect game. This heavily implies that the majority of respondents to the poll believe there is a Mass Effect game which is weaker than Andromeda. Given that every Mass Effect game so far has been made by Bioware, it surely follows that, in the view of this forum, Andromeda is in fact not "weakest BW game up to date". It is, of course, impossible to state as fact that "Andromeda is not the weakest Bioware game to date". Although, were we to present our two differing opinions as opposing theories, ie. "Andromeda is the weakest" vs "Andromeda is not the weakest", it would be possible to use said poll as evidence to disprove the former theory, and support the latter, but I digress. As an aside, this forum contains people who are fans of Bioware games. (Incidentally, not all of these are "fanboys". There are some "fangirls" as well.) In the context of your argument, this makes no impact on whether they would prefer Andromeda to other Bioware games, since while they are more likely to enjoy Mass Effect Andromeda, they are also equally more likely to enjoy every other Bioware game to which you are comparing it. Any questions? You can pour as much semantic and rhetoric as you want in your feats of fanboyism, defending beloved game, but that does not change the fact that Andromeda is a complete and utter flop both in the context of ME franchise and Bioware RPGs in general. As for the rest - go read my other posts above, I am not going to spend my time repeating things for you personally. Now shoo!.. P.S: on a side note, you clearly have no understanding that most of the key ppl responsible for success of previous Mass Effect games did not worked on Andromeda, so you statement about it being same Bioware that made previous ME games is laughable at best. So maybe you stop wasting other ppl time and come back when you actually know what you talking about, boy?
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Post by myalzalean on Apr 4, 2017 14:34:01 GMT
P.S: on a side note, you clearly have no understanding that most of the key ppl responsible for success of previous Mass Effect games did not worked on Andromeda, so you statement about it being same Bioware that made previous ME games is laughable at best. So maybe you stop wasting other ppl time and come back when you actually know what you talking about, boy? And as if on cue the discussion as devolved into personal attacks. Well done.
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Post by chugster on Apr 4, 2017 14:36:54 GMT
P.S: on a side note, you clearly have no understanding that most of the key ppl responsible for success of previous Mass Effect games did not worked on Andromeda, so you statement about it being same Bioware that made previous ME games is laughable at best. So maybe you stop wasting other ppl time and come back when you actually know what you talking about, boy? And as if on cue the discussion as devolved into personal attacks. Well done. They always turn to insults when faced with unassailable logic
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2017 14:38:04 GMT
Exactly how I feel OP.
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Post by tjmitchem on Apr 4, 2017 14:42:53 GMT
lets look at the storyline, she's supposed to be in her late 20's when she went into cryostasis The twins were born in 2163. That makes them 22 at the start of ME:A.
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Post by chugster on Apr 4, 2017 14:46:48 GMT
lets look at the storyline, she's supposed to be in her late 20's when she went into cryostasis The twins were born in 2163. That makes them 22 at the start of ME:A. Its good to know that nanotm knows what he is talking about when he makes his amazing posts judging everything.
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Post by nanotm on Apr 4, 2017 15:07:00 GMT
lets look at the storyline, she's supposed to be in her late 20's when she went into cryostasis The twins were born in 2163. That makes them 22 at the start of ME:A. yeah and yet somehow she spent 8 years in the alliance as a military operator and science geek, meaning either the alliance changed its ways and stopped recruiting 18+ for service or they screwed up the story somewhere along the way of course her bio on the codex doesn't actually match the info gained from chatting with friends during the game either but that's probably down to the scrip writers for the speech stuff not being the same people who wrote the story... and that's pretty immersion breaking all on its own
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Post by SofaJockey on Apr 4, 2017 15:07:09 GMT
As we are now all crystal clear on chugster's position, I think we're done here.
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