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Post by alanc9 on Apr 6, 2017 23:29:09 GMT
Really? How is this different from old Bioware? Remember when Juhani was revealed to be gay back in KotoR and no one cared, but when J.J Abrams was asked if there are gay characters in the Star Wars universe and he said "yes" people threw a hissy fit. People are just so sensitive now, and that goes for both sides. I can't believe anyone really cares about this, like at all. Think i'll just play Andromeda instead. It's not that, it's not about people being gay or transgender, it's how they behave, how all characters behave, gay / straight / NPC's / Ryder. The lines they say their intonations, their worldview it comes through as one of an SJW. What does that even mean?
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Post by alanc9 on Apr 6, 2017 23:37:26 GMT
But that's just it, asari don't have "gender roles" because they are all the same gender. internally no they do not. But when they view other races... And try to emulate them (which they do because we all know what crowd pleasers the Asari are) they probably assign meaning based on their own point of view. And more importantly when other people try to view them they are bound to try and categorize the Asari based on what is familiar. I've said it before and I'll say it again. This conversation was correcting a writing 'error' in the OT. Because there are bound to be issues with this when the Asari make first contact with any new species AND its an issue that the OT also dealt with in very similar terms. It's still a little weird, though.It's like... a European moving to India and trying to slot himself into the caste system, perhaps?
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Post by colfoley on Apr 7, 2017 1:25:43 GMT
internally no they do not. But when they view other races... And try to emulate them (which they do because we all know what crowd pleasers the Asari are) they probably assign meaning based on their own point of view. And more importantly when other people try to view them they are bound to try and categorize the Asari based on what is familiar. I've said it before and I'll say it again. This conversation was correcting a writing 'error' in the OT. Because there are bound to be issues with this when the Asari make first contact with any new species AND its an issue that the OT also dealt with in very similar terms. It's still a little weird, though.It's like... a European moving to India and trying to slot himself into the caste system, perhaps? Oh absolutley its weird. The Asari are weird. They are weird by a real world human standard who does not have to worry about this sort of thing. And its weird because there are only one (maybe 2?) genderless species within the ME universe. So confusion is bound to happen in First Contact or 'new to the neighborhood' situations when a dual gendered species tries to talk to any mono gendered species.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 7, 2017 1:38:06 GMT
Interesting. It almost seems as though the person who wrote the script never played ME:T It's almost as if BioWare hired a feminist-type person who is not actually interested in the entertainment but just their virtue-signaling at the expense of whatever they can use to bring forth their agenda.
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Post by kaind on Apr 7, 2017 2:40:37 GMT
It's not that, it's not about people being gay or transgender, it's how they behave, how all characters behave, gay / straight / NPC's / Ryder. The lines they say their intonations, their worldview it comes through as one of an SJW. What does that even mean? Ryder can't be cold and rational, Ryder can't be mean, none of the teammates are ever either no matter the different background, everyone is super sensitive and pay very serious attention to emotions and try to stay very safe in conversations not to offend anyone. Ryder says direct scripted lines like ''I was hoping you would open up more.'' to crew as one of the opening lines instead of keeping it professional. Etc.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Apr 7, 2017 3:10:54 GMT
Here's my thing with it. The Asari are mono-gendered, yes. So in their language initially there was no word for gender, of an Asari. I all animals on the Asari homeworld were also mono-gendered, then they wouldn't need those words. If there were species with multiple genders on the homeworld, then they would have words for different genders. But maybe they are specific to those species and don't apply to Asari, in their language.
However, now for thousands of years the Asari have been involved with multiple other species that have different genders and different names for those genders. So it makes sense that they would pick up that concept, even with the use of the universal translator. I'm sure that not every species uses it all the time. If an Asari and a Krogan mate, they probably try to learn their native languages, you know, because couples. And though they initially may not have had words or the concept of multiple genders or pronouns for themselves, now there are Asari that do. Because they have been raised in a culture where these things exist, if not for the Asari.
Take this for instance. We didn't used to have words for "radiation" or "lasers" or "automobiles". But we created them when the terms were needed. True they are derived from other words/languages/etc (and "laser" is technically an acronym) but the point is the Asari could have done that, too. Heck, we came up with those alternative pronouns for people who wanted to be "ze's" or "hir's" or whatever, so the Asari could also have done that.
And as to what Samara and Liara have said, well if you asked 95% of people in the world how many genders there were and what were they they would say "Two genders, male and female." But that 5% would say "Oh, many genders! Neutrois, Non-binary, Other, Pangender..." etc. So it makes sense that there could be some Asari that fall into this same group that humans do.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 7, 2017 3:15:57 GMT
To OP: No, because it makes sense. Choice of preferred pronoun is not the exact same as a significant gender orientation. Some prefer to be called 'he' when the translator happens. That's it. Binary gender is not alien to the asari even if they consider themselves to not follow it as a species. As a society, there certainly can be a minority that likes hearing 'he' come through the translator from the other species to their ears. Its... god, its really NOT complicated. Asari likely have an equal to 'they' (as opposed to 'he'/'she') when speaking to each other but they DO know that binary gender exists and so they have a preferred word sometimes. It very likely isn't core to identity, at least for almost all (we should remember these are individuals). Almost all asari we meet will still either go along with 'she' (and they'll hear it from us because its not like its an incomprehensible term to asari), or prefer 'she'. Its a totally understandable thing to me if a minority openly prefer 'he' and that at some point when dealing with asari there will be a polite reminder to consider that. This files under lore expansion to me, not retcon. But why would an asari language even have gendered pronouns? Personal pronouns don't have to have gender at all. Wouldn't the translator just cough up gender neutral ones? Acknowledging the concept in their dealings with other species is one thing, but not even all languages on earth have gendered pronouns despite having male and female genders. It simply doesn't make sense that the asari would change their pronoun structure (not a part of a language that changes so much over time) simply in reaction to it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 4:57:03 GMT
It might make sense for the Asari to have words for male and female, but it makes less sense for them to have the same gender identity issues found on Earth. The Asari only come in one biological sex, so why would an Asari have a gender identity that is separate from the sex she was born into? That should be an alien concept to her.
An Asari with a male gender identity would be a bit like having a human who identifies as Turian.
I'm all for inclusion of transgender characters, but it really makes a lot more sense for any alien transgender characters to be from species who have two biological sexes, similar to humans.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 9, 2017 6:07:39 GMT
To OP: No, because it makes sense. Choice of preferred pronoun is not the exact same as a significant gender orientation. Some prefer to be called 'he' when the translator happens. That's it. Binary gender is not alien to the asari even if they consider themselves to not follow it as a species. As a society, there certainly can be a minority that likes hearing 'he' come through the translator from the other species to their ears. Its... god, its really NOT complicated. Asari likely have an equal to 'they' (as opposed to 'he'/'she') when speaking to each other but they DO know that binary gender exists and so they have a preferred word sometimes. It very likely isn't core to identity, at least for almost all (we should remember these are individuals). Almost all asari we meet will still either go along with 'she' (and they'll hear it from us because its not like its an incomprehensible term to asari), or prefer 'she'. Its a totally understandable thing to me if a minority openly prefer 'he' and that at some point when dealing with asari there will be a polite reminder to consider that. This files under lore expansion to me, not retcon. But why would an asari language even have gendered pronouns? Personal pronouns don't have to have gender at all. Wouldn't the translator just cough up gender neutral ones? Acknowledging the concept in their dealings with other species is one thing, but not even all languages on earth have gendered pronouns despite having male and female genders. It simply doesn't make sense that the asari would change their pronoun structure (not a part of a language that changes so much over time) simply in reaction to it. Asari? The most diplomatic species in the Milky Way? When speaking with other species? I absolutely believe they would.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 9, 2017 6:08:26 GMT
It might make sense for the Asari to have words for male and female, but it makes less sense for them to have the same gender identity issues found on Earth. The Asari only come in one biological sex, so why would an Asari have a gender identity that is separate from the sex she was born into? That should be an alien concept to her. An Asari with a male gender identity would be a bit like having a human who identifies as Turian. I'm all for inclusion of transgender characters, but it really makes a lot more sense for any alien transgender characters to be from species who have two biological sexes, similar to humans. They don't have the same gender identity issues. And they're not trans.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 9, 2017 9:28:48 GMT
But why would an asari language even have gendered pronouns? Personal pronouns don't have to have gender at all. Wouldn't the translator just cough up gender neutral ones? Acknowledging the concept in their dealings with other species is one thing, but not even all languages on earth have gendered pronouns despite having male and female genders. It simply doesn't make sense that the asari would change their pronoun structure (not a part of a language that changes so much over time) simply in reaction to it. Asari? The most diplomatic species in the Milky Way? When speaking with other species? I absolutely believe they would. Wouldn't these advanced automated translators eliminate that need?
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Post by Cassandra on Apr 9, 2017 9:51:49 GMT
They serious put a pronoun debate in this game? Even though it's entirely inconsequential, I just... have to shake my head.
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Post by sil on Apr 9, 2017 11:29:54 GMT
Would've made for a more entertaining discussion if the Angaran had thought she was a type of human and she was correcting him. I mean, they've got the same body shape, similar facial shapes, similar voices. All that is different is that they're blue and have funny head crests from a purely aesthetic level.
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 9, 2017 11:42:32 GMT
Fun fact: the Angaran states that "his people have several pronouns to identify with"...
...except they don't. Unless I've missed something, they are pretty much a regular binary species and refer to each other as he\she.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 12:29:19 GMT
It might make sense for the Asari to have words for male and female, but it makes less sense for them to have the same gender identity issues found on Earth. The Asari only come in one biological sex, so why would an Asari have a gender identity that is separate from the sex she was born into? That should be an alien concept to her. An Asari with a male gender identity would be a bit like having a human who identifies as Turian.
I'm all for inclusion of transgender characters, but it really makes a lot more sense for any alien transgender characters to be from species who have two biological sexes, similar to humans. Mate we have people who identify as dragons and demons and fucking squirrels in this day and age. I can totally see a subset of weirdos identifying as Turians and Asari and Quarians.
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Post by SwobyJ on Apr 10, 2017 7:33:49 GMT
Asari? The most diplomatic species in the Milky Way? When speaking with other species? I absolutely believe they would. Wouldn't these advanced automated translators eliminate that need? My point was the want. If everyone else operates with more than one gender, I'm absolutely sure the asari would take on that language, just like, though in a different way, human translators take on Quarian terms that do indeed have a close English/etc meaning, but clearly have a particular significance.
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Post by Panda on Apr 10, 2017 9:02:21 GMT
I feel like devs are once again trying to push "Asari's aren't women" angle. I don't think it makes sense for Asari to identify as male since it's not part of their culture or biology, at least until ME:A hasn't. It would make sense for Asari not caring about pronouns at all since they have all same sex anyways, but that hasn't really happened either with them using words like "matriarch", "huntress", "maiden".
I wonder if BW will try to soon push "Asari aren't female LI's" angle as well and claim that straight women and gay men can romance Asari's, because of this as well.
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Post by Morrigan on Apr 10, 2017 9:10:22 GMT
The Asari primarily mate with people of other species. To do this effectively, they adapt to other species' notions of gender.
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Post by Morrigan on Apr 10, 2017 9:14:12 GMT
It might make sense for the Asari to have words for male and female, but it makes less sense for them to have the same gender identity issues found on Earth. The Asari only come in one biological sex, so why would an Asari have a gender identity that is separate from the sex she was born into? That should be an alien concept to her. An Asari with a male gender identity would be a bit like having a human who identifies as Turian.I'm all for inclusion of transgender characters, but it really makes a lot more sense for any alien transgender characters to be from species who have two biological sexes, similar to humans. An Asari who identifies as male could be an Asari fathering a child with another Asari or an Asari in a relationship with a female human.
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Post by bizantura on Apr 10, 2017 9:56:46 GMT
It might make sense for the Asari to have words for male and female, but it makes less sense for them to have the same gender identity issues found on Earth. The Asari only come in one biological sex, so why would an Asari have a gender identity that is separate from the sex she was born into? That should be an alien concept to her. An Asari with a male gender identity would be a bit like having a human who identifies as Turian.
I'm all for inclusion of transgender characters, but it really makes a lot more sense for any alien transgender characters to be from species who have two biological sexes, similar to humans. Mate we have people who identify as dragons and demons and fucking squirrels in this day and age. I can totally see a subset of weirdos identifying as Turians and Asari and Quarians. There are no "gender issues" on earth, it's pandering to a tiny minority so society gets unhinged at the core level = family unit. I hope CDPR maintains to leave the so-called "pronoun and bathroom" predicaments to the Americans and Canadians. The squadmates in MEA are already bland and uninteresting due to this cockamamie shoved down your throat pandering.
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Post by leo3abp on Apr 10, 2017 10:02:27 GMT
It might make sense for the Asari to have words for male and female, but it makes less sense for them to have the same gender identity issues found on Earth. The Asari only come in one biological sex, so why would an Asari have a gender identity that is separate from the sex she was born into? That should be an alien concept to her. An Asari with a male gender identity would be a bit like having a human who identifies as Turian.
I'm all for inclusion of transgender characters, but it really makes a lot more sense for any alien transgender characters to be from species who have two biological sexes, similar to humans. Mate we have people who identify as dragons and demons and fucking squirrels in this day and age. I can totally see a subset of weirdos identifying as Turians and Asari and Quarians. except that does not make it any less of a mental health issue...
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Post by warbaby2 on Apr 10, 2017 10:02:43 GMT
Mate we have people who identify as dragons and demons and fucking squirrels in this day and age. I can totally see a subset of weirdos identifying as Turians and Asari and Quarians. There are no "gender issues" on earth, it's pandering to a tiny minority so society gets unhinged at the core level = family unit. I hope CDPR maintains to leave the so-called "pronoun and bathroom" predicaments to the Americans and Canadians. The squadmates in MEA are already bland and uninteresting due to this cockamamie shoved down your throat pandering. CDPR are have no interest in putting real world politics in their games, they are eastern European... and that's one reason why they will continue to succeed. Just as the Japanese, they are still concentrated on their craft, unlike many US/Canadian and western European studios. ...and no, "other kin" and similar dilusionaries are not mentally ill, they just refuse to put down the childish behavior of "pretending" in the face of a perceived uncaring and cruel adult world they haven't been properly prepared for or outright reject for some other reason.
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Post by bizantura on Apr 10, 2017 10:11:23 GMT
There are no "gender issues" on earth, it's pandering to a tiny minority so society gets unhinged at the core level = family unit. I hope CDPR maintains to leave the so-called "pronoun and bathroom" predicaments to the Americans and Canadians. The squadmates in MEA are already bland and uninteresting due to this cockamamie shoved down your throat pandering. CDPR are have no interest in putting real world politics in their games, they are eastern European... and that's one reason why they will continue to succeed. Just as the Japanese, they are still concentrated on their craft, unlike many US/Canadian and western European studios. Well, wouldn't say no interest exactly. I live in the EU, not Poland but that "nonsense" is spreading over here too, Sweden comes to mind. In the end, it comes to selling and US + Canada = big market.
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Post by warbaby2 on Apr 10, 2017 10:24:12 GMT
CDPR are have no interest in putting real world politics in their games, they are eastern European... and that's one reason why they will continue to succeed. Just as the Japanese, they are still concentrated on their craft, unlike many US/Canadian and western European studios. Well, wouldn't say no interest exactly. I live in the EU, not Poland but that "nonsense" is spreading over here too, Sweden comes to mind. In the end, it comes to selling and US + Canada = big market. Me, too, I live in Austria... and the former eastern block is not at all interested in anything PC politics. They basically smell the Communism surrounding it, I recon. Also: US/CA might be the big market, but it's not an isolated one, and should western publishers not wake up soon, it could very well be that their stuff suddenly will stop selling because costumers ditch it in favor of superior foreign products. Look what happened to MARVEL comics...
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Post by Archangel on Apr 10, 2017 10:31:01 GMT
Mate we have people who identify as dragons and demons and fucking squirrels in this day and age. I can totally see a subset of weirdos identifying as Turians and Asari and Quarians. due to this cockamamie shoved down your throat pandering. Sorry...temporarily channeled a jr high school student...
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