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Post by darkway1 on Apr 10, 2017 10:45:30 GMT
Back in the day's of Mass Effect 1 we had characters like Sha'ira (the Consort) on the Citadel,Sha'ira (to me) demonstrates how the Asari adopt other species cultures and terminology in order to simply make other species/races feel more comfortable,they them selves however are obviously beyond the constraints of gender and species.
Applying the "human" gender perspective to the Asari is (to me) shit writing and can only really be agenda driven,because the topic just doesn't fit the narrative,why would gender even be a "thing" in the future when having sex with totally different species seems perfectly expectable.???
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Post by wittand25 on Apr 10, 2017 12:49:43 GMT
Sex and gender are not the same thing, so even a species with only one sex can have a concept of different genders.
Take for example the German language, words have a gender but obviously no sex, (e.g Löffel(spoon) is male, Gabel(fork) is female and Messer(knife) is neutral), similary it can be perfectly possible that the Asari use different pronouns amongst themselves to reflect things like life-stages, whether the Asari already gave birth, .... .
However considering the lore of the past three games all of these different pronouns would likely be translated into she for English.
But I really don´t understand why people make such a fuss about this, the Asari suffered why larger retcons between ME2 and ME3, which even created plotholes in ME3.
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Post by kaind on Apr 10, 2017 13:29:10 GMT
Sex and gender are not the same thing, so even a species with only one sex can have a concept of different genders. Take for example the German language, words have a gender but obviously no sex, (e.g Löffel(spoon) is male, Gabel(fork) is female and Messer(knife) is neutral), similary it can be perfectly possible that the Asari use different pronouns amongst themselves to reflect things like life-stages, whether the Asari already gave birth, .... . However considering the lore of the past three games all of these different pronouns would likely be translated into she for English. But I really don´t understand why people make such a fuss about this, the Asari suffered why larger retcons between ME2 and ME3, which even created plotholes in ME3. I personally don't like gender, I think it's a dumb concept that society doesn't need. That's one of the reasons I liked Asari, because they didn't have that concept, so I don't like it when they retcon that and dumb down Asari.
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Post by Panda on Apr 10, 2017 14:04:53 GMT
Sex and gender are not the same thing, so even a species with only one sex can have a concept of different genders. Take for example the German language, words have a gender but obviously no sex, (e.g Löffel(spoon) is male, Gabel(fork) is female and Messer(knife) is neutral), similary it can be perfectly possible that the Asari use different pronouns amongst themselves to reflect things like life-stages, whether the Asari already gave birth, .... . However considering the lore of the past three games all of these different pronouns would likely be translated into she for English. But I really don´t understand why people make such a fuss about this, the Asari suffered why larger retcons between ME2 and ME3, which even created plotholes in ME3. Where the gender concept comes though if not sex though? I don't think it's possible that concept of male gender could have born in society where "male" doesn't exist. Asari can use different pronouns sure expect that they haven't this far really, but even if they did it wouldn't have to do with male gender.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 10, 2017 14:14:09 GMT
Wouldn't these advanced automated translators eliminate that need? My point was the want. If everyone else operates with more than one gender, I'm absolutely sure the asari would take on that language, just like, though in a different way, human translators take on Quarian terms that do indeed have a close English/etc meaning, but clearly have a particular significance. Fair enough, but most asari must still live in overwhelmingly majority asari communities on their homeworld and such (Part of the reason that I always found that "pureblood" prejudice kind of silly). So while I understand the Asari adopting that language when referring to other species, I still find it unlikely that they would start applying it to themselves.
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Post by Iakus on Apr 10, 2017 14:24:09 GMT
Take for example the German language, words have a gender but obviously no sex, (e.g Löffel(spoon) is male, Gabel(fork) is female and Messer(knife) is neutral), similary it can be perfectly possible that the Asari use different pronouns amongst themselves to reflect things like life-stages, whether the Asari already gave birth, .... . Every noun has a gender, and there is no sense or system in the distribution; so the gender of each must be learned separately and by heart. There is no other way. To do this one has to have a memory like a memorandum-book. In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has. Think what overwrought reverence that shows for the turnip, and what callous disrespect for the girl. See how it looks in print -- I translate this from a conversation in one of the best of the German Sunday-school books:
"Gretchen:
'Wilhelm, where is the turnip?'
Wilhelm:
'She has gone to the kitchen.'
Gretchen:
'Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?'
Wilhelm:
'It has gone to the opera.'"
To continue with the German genders: a tree is male, its buds are female, its leaves are neuter; horses are sexless, dogs are male, cats are female -- tomcats included, of course; a person's mouth, neck, bosom, elbows, fingers, nails, feet, and body are of the male sex, and his head is male or neuter according to the word selected to signify it, and not according to the sex of the individual who wears it -- for in Germany all the women either male heads or sexless ones; a person's nose, lips, shoulders, breast, hands, and toes are of the female sex; and his hair, ears, eyes, chin, legs, knees, heart, and conscience haven't any sex at all. The inventor of the language probably got what he knew about a conscience from hearsay.Mark Twain: The Awful German Language
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Post by darkway1 on Apr 10, 2017 14:25:26 GMT
My point was the want. If everyone else operates with more than one gender, I'm absolutely sure the asari would take on that language, just like, though in a different way, human translators take on Quarian terms that do indeed have a close English/etc meaning, but clearly have a particular significance. Fair enough, but most asari must still live in overwhelmingly majority asari communities on their homeworld and such (Part of the reason that I always found that "pureblood" prejudice kind of silly). So while I understand the Asari adopting that language when referring to other species, I still find it unlikely that they would start applying it to themselves. Exactly.......which is why people point fingers at a possible "Bioware agenda" because the whole gender topic just doesn't fit with existing Asari narrative.
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Post by adrynbliss on Apr 10, 2017 14:50:37 GMT
There are no "gender issues" on earth, it's pandering to a tiny minority so society gets unhinged at the core level = family unit. I hope CDPR maintains to leave the so-called "pronoun and bathroom" predicaments to the Americans and Canadians. The squadmates in MEA are already bland and uninteresting due to this cockamamie shoved down your throat pandering. CDPR are have no interest in putting real world politics in their games, they are eastern European... and that's one reason why they will continue to succeed. Just as the Japanese, they are still concentrated on their craft, unlike many US/Canadian and western European studios. ...and no, "other kin" and similar dilusionaries are not mentally ill, they just refuse to put down the childish behavior of "pretending" in the face of a perceived uncaring and cruel adult world they haven't been properly prepared for or outright reject for some other reason. just because you can't see the politics doesn't mean it's not there. For one thing all art reflects the politics of the creators, either consciously or unconsciously and in the specific case of cdpr it's most defiantly there you are either blind to it or intentionally blind to it, the novels for which the game is based were influenced by eastern European politics and apart from that, one clear theme off the top of my head is the environmental politics of mankind's encroachment on the natural world. Politics are very much in their games, as they are with all games that have any narrative, you simply choose not to see it.
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Post by Heimdall on Apr 10, 2017 15:06:44 GMT
Take for example the German language, words have a gender but obviously no sex, (e.g Löffel(spoon) is male, Gabel(fork) is female and Messer(knife) is neutral), similary it can be perfectly possible that the Asari use different pronouns amongst themselves to reflect things like life-stages, whether the Asari already gave birth, .... . Every noun has a gender, and there is no sense or system in the distribution; so the gender of each must be learned separately and by heart. There is no other way. To do this one has to have a memory like a memorandum-book. In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has. Think what overwrought reverence that shows for the turnip, and what callous disrespect for the girl. See how it looks in print -- I translate this from a conversation in one of the best of the German Sunday-school books:
"Gretchen.
Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
Wilhelm.
She has gone to the kitchen.
Gretchen.
Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
Wilhelm.
It has gone to the opera."
To continue with the German genders: a tree is male, its buds are female, its leaves are neuter; horses are sexless, dogs are male, cats are female -- tomcats included, of course; a person's mouth, neck, bosom, elbows, fingers, nails, feet, and body are of the male sex, and his head is male or neuter according to the word selected to signify it, and not according to the sex of the individual who wears it -- for in Germany all the women either male heads or sexless ones; a person's nose, lips, shoulders, breast, hands, and toes are of the female sex; and his hair, ears, eyes, chin, legs, knees, heart, and conscience haven't any sex at all. The inventor of the language probably got what he knew about a conscience from hearsay.mark Twain: The Awful German Language I'm really glad these sorts of things fell out of the English language.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 10, 2017 15:26:10 GMT
There are no "gender issues" on earth, it's pandering to a tiny minority so society gets unhinged at the core level = family unit. I hope CDPR maintains to leave the so-called "pronoun and bathroom" predicaments to the Americans and Canadians. The squadmates in MEA are already bland and uninteresting due to this cockamamie shoved down your throat pandering. CDPR are have no interest in putting real world politics in their games, they are eastern European... and that's one reason why they will continue to succeed. Just as the Japanese, they are still concentrated on their craft, unlike many US/Canadian and western European studios. ...and no, "other kin" and similar dilusionaries are not mentally ill, they just refuse to put down the childish behavior of "pretending" in the face of a perceived uncaring and cruel adult world they haven't been properly prepared for or outright reject for some other reason. Actually Witcher 3 is comparative a lot more feminist than Witcher 2. It has a hot elf you save but then she goes "What, want me to spread my legs for you? I don't needed saving!" and things like that. The difference is that Inquisition sugarcoats and forces its feminism and LGBTQ justice by making it a natural part of the world whereas Witcher shows the problems AS they exist, such as the fact that there is still some male dominance left in certain parts of the world and Witcher being sorta medieval and a historic fantasy setting it's even more prominent, so it deals with those issues as it is. You also get to make Ciri lesbian if you want her to be that but again, it doesn't force it in left and right like propaganda, it's just there sometimes arising naturally.
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Post by warbaby2 on Apr 10, 2017 16:06:29 GMT
CDPR are have no interest in putting real world politics in their games, they are eastern European... and that's one reason why they will continue to succeed. Just as the Japanese, they are still concentrated on their craft, unlike many US/Canadian and western European studios. ...and no, "other kin" and similar dilusionaries are not mentally ill, they just refuse to put down the childish behavior of "pretending" in the face of a perceived uncaring and cruel adult world they haven't been properly prepared for or outright reject for some other reason. Actually Witcher 3 is comparative a lot more feminist than Witcher 2. It has a hot elf you save but then she goes "What, want me to spread my legs for you? I don't needed saving!" and things like that. The difference is that Inquisition sugarcoats and forces its feminism and LGBTQ justice by making it a natural part of the world whereas Witcher shows the problems AS they exist, such as the fact that there is still some male dominance left in certain parts of the world and Witcher being sorta medieval and a historic fantasy setting it's even more prominent, so it deals with those issues as it is. You also get to make Ciri lesbian if you want her to be that but again, it doesn't force it in left and right like propaganda, it's just there sometimes arising naturally. Which is how it should be, though. Politics have always been part of story driven games... either as an outright subject of the plot or as a metaphor. That's ok, that's what art can do. What's not ok is to make a statement of validity of any political subject in relation to the real world: That's called propaganda. That distinction should be very clear...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 16:08:55 GMT
Hmmm...
In ME2, they expanded the lore by introducing a krogan shaman and rite of passage. We also learned that krogan females and children lived separate from the males, in their own clans. We overheard a krogan warrior talking about a child he believed to be his, and wishing for more visitation. What we saw of Tuchanka was mostly rubble.
In ME3, we learned that female clans also had shaman, and that krogan had art and culture in their past.
^^These things were simply expansions of lore, more information about a culture we'd known since ME1.
In MEA, krogan are no longer separated by sex, and appear to be re-creating themselves as a more balanced social group that I assume will be organized into nuclear families. We also learn that Drack raised Kesh, which kind of flies in the face of what we learned about krogan culture in ME2. Of course, that is Clan Nakmor and our ME2 experience was with Clan Urdnot - yet Urdnot was uniting the other clans.
The krogan who joined the Ai are redefining their social structure. Salarians, too, are doing things quite differently. I read through some of MEA's codex last night, and it seems it was quite a challenge to extricate some salarian females from the social / political structure on Sur'Kesh.
We don't have enough information about this gender pronoun thing with the asari to draw any conclusions. It's possible that the asari had individual pronoun preferences all along, or they may be redefining themselves and their culture as other species are.
It's never easy to discuss gender, because it means different things to different people, in different languages, and in different contexts. Sometimes it refers to biological sex (male, female, intersexed, hermaphrodite), sometimes traits or behaviors (masculine, feminine, androgynous), sometimes some sort of personal identity.
What we're seeing with the asari could be nothing more than a desire to clarify their individual role in reproduction. A father might prefer male pronouns, a mother female, and someone who has done both or neither neutral. I notice that conversation occurs at the Cultural Center, and it might just be how they are choosing to present themselves to new aliens they meet in Andromeda.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 10, 2017 16:32:33 GMT
It's just that the dialogue in the cultural hub comes across as a Twitter debate between a feminist and some stranger and this is supposed to be 150 years in the future propelled 600 years into another distant future. They could've done this in a Mass Effect way but they just went with the dumbed down version where whoever wrote this dialogue just inserted their own viewpoint as it fits in a 2017 context and that's it. It's cool that Mass Effect has some timely elements but if they want to explore this in this conceptual way they could've put more thought into it.
For example, Shepard asks Liara about the monogenderedness in ME1 and Liara explains it in a way that feels appropriate to the fiction.
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Post by warbaby2 on Apr 10, 2017 16:47:54 GMT
It's just that the dialogue in the cultural hub comes across as a Twitter debate between a feminist and some stranger and this is supposed to be 150 years in the future propelled 600 years into another distant future. They could've done this in a Mass Effect way but they just went with the dumbed down version where whoever wrote this dialogue just inserted their own viewpoint as it fits in a 2017 context and that's it. It's cool that Mass Effect has some timely elements but if they want to explore this in this conceptual way they could've put more thought into it. For example, Shepard asks Liara about the monogenderedness in ME1 and Liara explains it in a way that feels appropriate to the fiction. Because ME1 had talented writers, MEA did not... in the end it all comes down to the pesky meritocracy, if current day BW want's to acknowledge it or not. Same with the Witcher. Nobody probably remembers "their" gay character. The hunter that helped Geralt track down the Griffon? Just as small and inconsequential a scene as that trans character in MEA, but handled a whole lot better.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 16:51:13 GMT
It's just that the dialogue in the cultural hub comes across as a Twitter debate between a feminist and some stranger I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. It's a simple, polite cultural Q & A in the background.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 10, 2017 17:02:29 GMT
It's just that the dialogue in the cultural hub comes across as a Twitter debate between a feminist and some stranger I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. It's a simple, polite cultural Q & A in the background. Finally watched the video. Honestly if this wasn't BW I would wonder if it wasn't meant to mock the whole issue of 'proper pro-noun usage'. An entire species of females wanting to use male or neutral identifiers, needing to prepare an entire document to list all of the Angaran pro-nouns, the whole premise of the conversation is just straight up ridiculous. Now of course we know BW would never do that, in fact I fully believe someone at BW thought that exchange made perfect sense. From anyone else though it could easily be interpreted otherwise.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Apr 10, 2017 17:06:08 GMT
It's just that the dialogue in the cultural hub comes across as a Twitter debate between a feminist and some stranger I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. It's a simple, polite cultural Q & A in the background. That conversation has no place in Mass Effect. The fixation on "pronouns" is where it turns in to a 2017 twitter debate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 17:39:17 GMT
I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. It's a simple, polite cultural Q & A in the background. That conversation has no place in Mass Effect. The fixation on "pronouns" is where it turns in to a 2017 twitter debate. So you'd rather they discuss table settings? Whether wedding invitations should be engraved? Some other points of etiquette / social protocol or other language / communication tips? If I were meeting a monogendered species for the first time, I'd probably want to know more about that, how they see themselves, and how they'd like to be addressed.
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Post by havard on Apr 10, 2017 18:06:22 GMT
That conversation has no place in Mass Effect. The fixation on "pronouns" is where it turns in to a 2017 twitter debate. So you'd rather they discuss table settings? Whether wedding invitations should be engraved? Some other points of etiquette / social protocol or other language / communication tips? If I were meeting a monogendered species for the first time, I'd probably want to know more about that, how they see themselves, and how they'd like to be addressed. Except you're not meeting them for the first time. They exist in all prior Mass Effect games, and all of those points are well-established, and contradicted with this conversation here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 18:10:53 GMT
So you'd rather they discuss table settings? Whether wedding invitations should be engraved? Some other points of etiquette / social protocol or other language / communication tips? If I were meeting a monogendered species for the first time, I'd probably want to know more about that, how they see themselves, and how they'd like to be addressed. Except you're not meeting them for the first time. They exist in all prior Mass Effect games, and all of those points are well-established, and contradicted with this conversation here. The angaran asking the question was trying to learn about them. Y'all are making far too much of this.
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Post by havard on Apr 10, 2017 18:13:02 GMT
Except you're not meeting them for the first time. They exist in all prior Mass Effect games, and all of those points are well-established, and contradicted with this conversation here.The angaran asking the question was trying to learn about them. Yes...the larger point is the second bit in my statement. I went ahead and bolded it this time so you can't just ignore it again.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 18:16:12 GMT
The angaran asking the question was trying to learn about them. Yes...the larger point is the second bit in my statement. I went ahead and bolded it this time so you can't just ignore it again. Can you kindly point out where the asari unanimously proclaimed their ubiquitous acceptance of genderized pronouns? I apparently missed that part.
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Post by havard on Apr 10, 2017 18:19:32 GMT
Yes...the larger point is the second bit in my statement. I went ahead and bolded it this time so you can't just ignore it again. Can you kindly point out where the asari unanimously proclaimed their ubiquitous acceptance of genderized pronouns? I apparently missed that part. There's about 7 pages of that already.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2017 18:30:19 GMT
Can you kindly point out where the asari unanimously proclaimed their ubiquitous acceptance of genderized pronouns? I apparently missed that part. There's about 7 pages of that already. It's been asked before, but never answered. Since you're not going to actually answer it either, this conversation isn't going anywhere useful.
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aglomeracja
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Post by aglomeracja on Apr 10, 2017 19:25:41 GMT
Yes...the larger point is the second bit in my statement. I went ahead and bolded it this time so you can't just ignore it again. Can you kindly point out where the asari unanimously proclaimed their ubiquitous acceptance of genderized pronouns? I apparently missed that part. "My species is mono-gendered. "Male" and "female" have no real meaning for us." "Some asari prefer male pronouns, while others gravitate towards gender neutral..."
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