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Post by AnDromedary on Apr 7, 2017 17:29:25 GMT
Is it me or does it sounds like they are approaching game writing like a Seinfeld Episode. Put characters in ridiculous situations, hilarity follows. I hope I am just reading too much into it. This exact statement is what I dislike most about Walters' attitude and IMO, it's a safe bet that it's exactly this attitude that introduced so many problems into the ME franchise (I don't want to say ruined it because I still like it but it definitely squandered a whole lot of potential). The mistake that Walters makes here is to separate the characters and story in his mind and put them into different drawers that may interact but are not one whole. This is just wrong. Characters and story need to work together, they need to complement each other and be one unified concept. Great characters will never take off and fulfill all their potential if they don't have a great and fitting story to act within and great stories don't work if the characters in them are flat or don't fit the needs of the story. It's only when you bring them together that things really work out. I feel like Drew Karpyshyn still understood this and you can see it in ME1. Every main character is a reflection that fits into the story. For example, Garrus is the more positive reflection of the villain, Saren while Ahsley is a fit for the storie's aspect about humanity trying to cope with it's recent introduction into an alien galactic community, etc. There was always a back and forth, a symbiosis if you will between the characters and the story. Now look at ME2, where did ME2 work best? During the loyalty missions because those were stories that actively were about and worked with the characters. The main story did not. It barely involved the characters at all and was about an issue they were all (even Shepard) only peripherally related to at best and it sucked. Which parts of ME3 worked best? The Tuchanka and the Rannoch ark, why? Because here again, we had a symbiosis between characters and story (Wrex and Mordin mostly for Tuchanka, Tali and Legion for Rannoch). That worked. Now, ME:A even had the advantage that all the Characters are by definition involved in the main story as they are part of the Initiative. However, I feel like they tried almost everything in their power to keep the character arcs separate from the main plot arc. Even Jaal's arc is more about internal anagaran politics than it is connected to the main plot, although his people are fighting the kett and deal with the remnant on a daily basis. IMO, Walters sees the old BioWare games in the wrong light. KotOR's characters, BG's characters, Jade Empire's characters, they all didn't just work on their own. Bastilla, Jolee and HK-47 didn't have a great plot arc because they were just awesome on their own (well, HK maybe but he is special ) but because they were intricately connected to what was going on in the game overall. I don't get how any respectable writer can make such a false dichotomy like that, not to mention setting priorities like that. It's counter productive and I think in the ME franchise as it developed from ME2 forward, it shows.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:29:40 GMT
We could just speak up and tell them we want Ryder to return? Petitions do work. They've successfully brought characters back on tv shows so..... It's worked quite a bit for BW stuff. If not for those old tweets saying they didn't plan on Ryder returning, I might be more inclined to believe Ryder will return in a new adventure, but it seems they need to understand how much it means to us, or they might go another way.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Apr 7, 2017 17:29:54 GMT
It seemed like Ryder's story had just started, though. They laid down such a great foundation and there is SOOOO much potential, like... why would they get rid of that? Ryder was thrown into this whole mess with the Kett and the Remnant and Meridian and it just wouldn't feel right following those plots across Andromeda's saga without Ryder being at the helm.
I'll be less interested in the next game because I will feel like I cannot continue my own personal story, something that is a STAPLE of the original franchise.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:30:38 GMT
It makes sense since they set up Andromeda as the DA team did with Thedas. The setting is the protagonist and our character is a story told in that setting, which later will be a legend that people will reference. I can live with this as long as Ryder will still me our main guy/girl. We'll see how it plays out.
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Post by lavigne on Apr 7, 2017 17:31:21 GMT
The curse of Mac Walters strikes again.... Nope the people that whined about the ending made this happen. Which ending?
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Post by KaiserShep on Apr 7, 2017 17:32:46 GMT
I'd hate to not be able to play as Ryder in future games. Tom Taylorson knocked it out of the ballpark and for me is the best voiced protagonist in an RPG I've played. Hold on to that dude, Bioware. Yeah I'm a big fan of the VA's here. It exacerbates my PC attachment issues X(
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Post by SilentK on Apr 7, 2017 17:33:25 GMT
I hope for at least one more game with Ryder, we just got them. The crew is great, I want to see more.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:35:33 GMT
I think they are being careful because when people first heard of Ryder, they bashed them to death because they weren't Shepard, so they felt Ryder having one story would be safest. If Ryder ends up with enough love, they might reconsider their plans. Ryder is testing the waters after the backlash received when they were first announced.
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Post by decafhigh on Apr 7, 2017 17:36:43 GMT
I feel like Drew Karpyshyn still understood this and you can see it in ME1. Every amin character is a reflection that fits into the story. For example, Garrus is the more positive refelction of the villain, Saren while Ahsley is a fit for the stories aspect about humanity trying to cope with it's recent introduction into an alien galactic community, etc. There was always a back and forth, a symbiosis if you will between the characters and the story. Ah, all the lost potential. Any way I can throw myself into a parallel universe where Drew never left the ME franchise?
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 7, 2017 17:37:19 GMT
Is it me or does it sounds like they are approaching game writing like a Seinfeld Episode. Put characters in ridiculous situations, hilarity follows. I hope I am just reading too much into it. This exact statement is what I dislike most about Walters' attitude and IMO, it's a safe bet that it's exactly this attitude that introduced so many problems into the ME franchise (I don't want to say ruined it because I still like it but it definitely squandered a whole lot of potential). The mistake that Walters makes here is to separate the characters and story in his mind and put them into different drawers that may interact but are not one whole. This is just wrong. Characters and story need to work together, they need to complement each other and be one unified concept. Great characters will never take off and fulfill all their potential if they don't have a great and fitting story to act within and great stories don't work if the characters in them are flat or don't fit the eneds of the story. It's only when you bring them together that things really work out. I feel like Drew Karpyshyn still understood this and you can see it in ME1. Every amin character is a reflection that fits into the story. For example, Garrus is the more positive refelction of the villain, Saren while Ahsley is a fit for the stories aspect about humanity trying to cope with it's recent introduction into an alien galactic community, etc. There was always a back and forth, a symbiosis if you will between the characters and the story. Now look at ME2, where did ME2 work best? During the loyalty missions because those were stories that actively were about and worked with the characters. The main story did not. It barely involved the characters at all and was about an issue they were all (even Shepard) only peripherally related to at best and it sucked. Which parts of ME3 worked best? The Tuchanka and the Rannoch ark, why? Because here again, we had a symbiosis between characters and story (Wrex and Mordin mostly for Tuchanka, Tali and Legion for Rannoch). That worked. Now, ME:A even had the advantage that all the Characters are by definition involved in the main story as they are part of the Initiative. However, I feel like they tried almost everything in their power to keep the character arcs seperate from the main plot ark. Even Jaal's arc is more about internal anagaran politics than it is connected to the main plot, although his people are fighting the kett and deal with the remnant on a daily basis. IMO, Walters sees the old BioWare games in the wrong light. KotOR's characters, BG's characters, Jade Empire's characters, they all didn't just work on their own. Bastilla, Jolee and HK-47 didn't have a great plot arc because they were just awesome on their own (well, HK maybe but he is special ) but because it was intricately connected to what was going on in the game overall. I don't get how any respectable writer can make such a false dichotomy like that, not to mention setting priorities like that. It's counter productive and I think in the ME franchise as it developed from ME2 forward, it shows. not just me then. It's a long article, but that part of the interview just jumped out at me. Maybe ME2 was so well received that they are trying to recreate that lightening in a bottle
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Apr 7, 2017 17:43:38 GMT
I think they are being careful because when people first heard of Ryder, they bashed them to death because they weren't Shepard, so they felt Ryder having one story would be safest. If Ryder ends up with enough love, they might reconsider their plans. Ryder is testing the waters after the backlash received when they were first announced. Y'all better tell the Devs how much you love your Ryder if y'all want to keep them lol
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Post by Moonshadow on Apr 7, 2017 17:46:42 GMT
(...) The thing that made mass effect so awesome was the fact that you could follow your main character over the course of several games. Just think about the character and story development will get lost by switching characters. The characters in mass effect became iconic because they had a chance to evolve. Oh, man. I really wanted that sequal. This. I hope they'll follow the Witcher route and make more games with the same cast but where each game has one overarching plot that will be solved at the end of the game (and potential DLCs). I love the DA series but losing the protagonist each time and basically all of the cast got jarring after a while. DAI was a good step in the right direction by letting characters from old games return in prominent roles, but still... I hope Bioware will give this cast a chance to shine and evolve. There's so much potential that I'd like to see come to life!
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Post by Bann Duncan on Apr 7, 2017 17:50:51 GMT
Very good read! Sounds like MEA will not continue in MEA2 with Ryder and crew. I got the opposite impression.
For Andromeda, I think, again, this is a fresh start and that was one of the key things we wanted to do with the story. It's a fresh start for the characters, as well. This is very much more of a hero's journey, as opposed to Shepard was very much the hero already when we met him or her, and then they became a legend? Versus this is, "Nope. You are about to become a hero." I think the other aspect of that is, this is just the first step. Although we're not calling this a trilogy, it's a series, and we've infused the story and the characters with a sense of permanence, like this will continue. Other things will happen, and we want people to become invested in those characters so that they are curious about, "Well, okay. Well, what would happen next?" even after Andromeda. It sounds like he means it's a fresh start as in it's a new crew, but we're meant to be connected to them as we go forward and see "what would happen next".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:52:45 GMT
Very good read! Sounds like MEA will not continue in MEA2 with Ryder and crew. I got the opposite impression.
For Andromeda, I think, again, this is a fresh start and that was one of the key things we wanted to do with the story. It's a fresh start for the characters, as well. This is very much more of a hero's journey, as opposed to Shepard was very much the hero already when we met him or her, and then they became a legend? Versus this is, "Nope. You are about to become a hero." I think the other aspect of that is, this is just the first step. Although we're not calling this a trilogy, it's a series, and we've infused the story and the characters with a sense of permanence, like this will continue. Other things will happen, and we want people to become invested in those characters so that they are curious about, "Well, okay. Well, what would happen next?" even after Andromeda. It sounds like he means it's a fresh start as in it's a new crew, but we're meant to be connected to them as we go forward and see "what would happen next". Again I was going by tweets a few months back where the devs said Ryder could return, but not as a protagonist. Popularity might be what wins out in the end.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 17:55:44 GMT
(...) The thing that made mass effect so awesome was the fact that you could follow your main character over the course of several games. Just think about the character and story development will get lost by switching characters. The characters in mass effect became iconic because they had a chance to evolve. Oh, man. I really wanted that sequal. This. I hope they'll follow the Witcher route and make more games with the same cast but where each game has one overarching plot that will be solved at the end of the game (and potential DLCs). I love the DA series but losing the protagonist each time and basically all of the cast got jarring after a while. DAI was a good step in the right direction by letting characters from old games return in prominent roles, but still... I hope Bioware will give this cast a chance to shine and evolve. There's so much potential that I'd like to see come to life! I both love and hate dragon age at the same time. It always leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth knowing that that whatever connection I make with the protagonist and the characters, they will disappear by the time the next game comes around. Varric is such a greate example of this. I love his character but honestly, seeing him in inquisition was painful because I was always reminded of the wonderful friendship he had with my hawke. Don´t give me wrong, it was great seeing him again but I hate that disconnection. Needless to say, I really hope they change their mind about this.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 7, 2017 17:56:59 GMT
If they had a over arching plan in the work, then fine bring Ryder. Otherwise, if they are going to write a new story anyway, it's not worth it.
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Post by jedidotflow on Apr 7, 2017 17:58:00 GMT
Yep! I think the DLC's coming out will conclude Ryder's story, with a Citadel/Trespasser-style one that sets us up for a new MEA story with a new protagonist. I hope not. I'm not the Ryder's and crew biggest fan or anything but I hate the way they do it in DA. You basically take any attachment you have with the game and chuck it out the window with each sequel. For better or worse Ryder and crew are what they decided to go with. I think throwing that all away in MEA2 will finally cure me of any lingering Mass Effect enthusiasm. And that's not even consider the garbage business practice of finishing a story in additional paid content. A sequel? Yeah, that's fine. A DLC? ... Nah.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Apr 7, 2017 18:02:02 GMT
This. I hope they'll follow the Witcher route and make more games with the same cast but where each game has one overarching plot that will be solved at the end of the game (and potential DLCs). I love the DA series but losing the protagonist each time and basically all of the cast got jarring after a while. DAI was a good step in the right direction by letting characters from old games return in prominent roles, but still... I hope Bioware will give this cast a chance to shine and evolve. There's so much potential that I'd like to see come to life! I both love and hate dragon age at the same time. It always leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth knowing that that whatever connection I make with the protagonist and the characters, they will disappear by the time the next game comes around. Varric is such a greate example of this. I love his character but honestly, seeing him in inquisition was painful because I was always reminded of the wonderful friendship he had with my hawke. Don´t give me wrong, it was great seeing him again but I hate that disconnection. Needless to say, I really hope they change their mind about this. Well... it's pretty clear that that wasn't the plan for Dragon Age. Nerdrage on the original BSN and elsewhere is why we got robbed of Hawke as that universe's Shepard.
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Post by Bann Duncan on Apr 7, 2017 18:03:03 GMT
I hope not. I'm not the Ryder's and crew biggest fan or anything but I hate the way they do it in DA. You basically take any attachment you have with the game and chuck it out the window with each sequel. For better or worse Ryder and crew are what they decided to go with. I think throwing that all away in MEA2 will finally cure me of any lingering Mass Effect enthusiasm. And that's not even consider the garbage business practice of finishing a story in additional paid content. A sequel? Yeah, that's fine. A DLC? ... Nah. So you'd rather wait several years for a subplot of the next game to follow up on the previous game? Post-story DLC is one of the best things that BioWare does.
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Post by ATR16 on Apr 7, 2017 18:03:38 GMT
If they're going down the DA route then I'm out. Whilst I enjoyed the original DA, none of the others have even remotely come close to ME. Yeah, not a fan of starting over every single game but still having half your major NPC encounters be "remember me from the previous game person behind the monitor? i'm back to have 5 lines and make a joke that serves no purpose in context but you remember me" Favourite PC is still The Warden and thats probably because I had all of DAO and Awakening with the guy, so probably 100 hours of varied content. Hawke comes in second, Inquisitor comes in last place by a mile.
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Post by Fredward on Apr 7, 2017 18:08:06 GMT
Maybe they should ask before they make up their minds. Maybe do some of that "listening" they're supposedly so it good at. And is that man seriously talking about the Milky Way? Already? ALREADY.
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Post by blanks on Apr 7, 2017 18:08:49 GMT
I like the DA approach more so I'm happy about this. I think it's easier for them to get new people into the series and have your decisions pay off within the single game. Plus if it avoids the buffoonery of stuff like Lazarus I'm all for it. I just hope it doesn't mean we're stuck with Peebee as the Mass Effect version of Varric.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 7, 2017 18:10:08 GMT
So. He like to go back to the Milky Way? What's stopping you Walters from going back now? Is it the ME3 ending? I like to go back now. I miss Earth. I miss the Milky Way. I know I can play the trilogy, but...... Or why don't you continue doing the Andromeda thing and EA can hire another team to make a game set in the Milky Way? In another thread, EA is hiring 500 more people. Whatever.
I do like to see Ryder in a sequel. If not.....oh well.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2017 18:13:22 GMT
I both love and hate dragon age at the same time. It always leaves me with a bitter taste in my mouth knowing that that whatever connection I make with the protagonist and the characters, they will disappear by the time the next game comes around. Varric is such a greate example of this. I love his character but honestly, seeing him in inquisition was painful because I was always reminded of the wonderful friendship he had with my hawke. Don´t give me wrong, it was great seeing him again but I hate that disconnection. Needless to say, I really hope they change their mind about this. Well... it's pretty clear that that wasn't the plan for Dragon Age. Nerdrage on the original BSN and elsewhere is why we got robbed of Hawke as that universe's Shepard. Sorry, not following exactly , was Hawke supposed come back? I wasn't around in the old forums so I haven´t heard anything about that.
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Post by jackdaniel on Apr 7, 2017 18:18:40 GMT
Everyone who wants Ryder back as PC for the full sequel, think about what you are asking. Bring Ryder back ties the game to a time frame of maybe 2 or 3 decades at most. That in itself is already a huge constraint on what they can do and what new stuff they can introduce. Then we have to deal with people who didn't play this game, which means the character arc that you guys wanted so would have to be compromised anyway to accommodate new players. Plus, minor things like credit, resource and inventory carrying over would require explanation, new skills and power would have to be handwaved somehow, as well as any change in combat system.
Not worth it.
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