Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1255
0
Nov 21, 2024 13:16:36 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 21, 2024 13:16:36 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 19:42:55 GMT
Ah, but Sarevok is NOT a member of your party in Baldur's Gate, and he is mellow in ToB. Sarevok was never obnoxious, just grandiose. And, defeated. In addition, BG modding always had a stronger female following than games themselves proportionately. Modern BG character modding after all started with a romances for female characters because it was so badly lacking. Naturally, there is more consumers for it. And how many original male players of BG2 go into troubles of finding out what happened 15 years down the road in the modded game? I don't think it will be replicated in a DA game, on a new release. EDIT: Bishop's case and the amount of derision Irenicus' Romance mod got back when BG2 was fairly more fresh, than when Sarevok's romance came out (whenever that happened) is more indicative of how most players feel about male morrigans in the games. Sometimes, I wonder how much the hatred of characters like Bishop and Morrigan is based on their "evil" personalities, versus how much they are outside the players control... :whistle: You need not separate the two. We naturally are inclined to like those who like us, so the NPCs that criticize or betray PCs (or the companions PC likes) are the riskiest. Not many people enjoy having someone toxic and controlling in RL in their immediate family, and in a video-game, the communications are very controlled and limited by the developper, so you cannot "tell them off". And, in DA games, can't even strip their armor and send them to perma-die. If you do happen to gang up with such a character against a companion you do not like, it may be amusing. So, the demographics play an important role in selling such a character, aka males who think Morrigan is sexy and snigger when she bashes "whiny" Alistair. |
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Nov 21, 2024 11:52:52 GMT
18,270
Catilina
11,035
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Apr 13, 2017 19:44:03 GMT
Ah, but Sarevok is NOT a member of your party in Baldur's Gate, and he is mellow in ToB. Sarevok was never obnoxious, just grandiose. And, defeated. In addition, BG modding always had a stronger female following than games themselves proportionately. Modern BG character modding after all started with a romances for female characters because it was so badly lacking. Naturally, there is more consumers for it. And how many original male players of BG2 go into troubles of finding out what happened 15 years down the road in the modded game? I don't think it will be replicated in a DA game, on a new release. EDIT: Bishop's case and the amount of derision Irenicus' Romance mod got back when BG2 was fairly more fresh, than when Sarevok's romance came out (whenever that happened) is more indicative of how most players feel about male morrigans in the games. Sometimes, I wonder how much the hatred of characters like Bishop and Morrigan is based on their "evil" personalities, versus how much they are outside the players control...  Morrigan isn't evil – ofc, my opinion. And yes: people hates the uncontrollable teammates. Their natural behavior called by players: betrayal. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Deleted
inherit
guest@proboards.com
1255
0
Nov 21, 2024 13:16:36 GMT
Deleted
0
Nov 21, 2024 13:16:36 GMT
January 1970
Deleted
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2017 19:50:32 GMT
Sometimes, I wonder how much the hatred of characters like Bishop and Morrigan is based on their "evil" personalities, versus how much they are outside the players control... :whistle: Morrigan isn't evil – ofc, my opinion. And yes: people hates the uncontrollable teammates. Their natural behavior called by players: betrayal. Actually, to credit Origins over Inquisition, you had a fairly large measure of control over Morrigan, in that you could send her packing almost right away. She was forced on you only for a brief period of time (twice), in Origins. In fact, if she did not reappear in Inquisition as a forced ally, I'd not complain. If DA4 finally makes her into an enemy that I can kill (by player's choice), I will withdraw my complaints. From all things DA4 can put into their selling pitch, the "You can kill Morrigan!" will be the surest to get me to buy the game, but I will triple check that it is 'kill" not just "stab" or 'takea swing" or "will potentially be retconed" or "shows that she can assume another form". |
|
Prince
N3
Posts: 275 Likes: 309
inherit
1424
0
309
Prince
275
September 2016
principe
|
Post by Prince on Apr 14, 2017 0:03:42 GMT
Who?
Ha...that child that doesn't exist.
If you're lucky like adult Connor in DAI you will have an adult Kieran's cameo which consist about two dialogues lines where he is mumbling on about how he is still confused\retarded and that's it.
|
|
Prince
N3
Posts: 275 Likes: 309
inherit
1424
0
309
Prince
275
September 2016
principe
|
Post by Prince on Apr 14, 2017 0:07:45 GMT
Flemeth already took it away from Kieran and likely passed it on to Morrigan. If it ever becomes relevant (which it should be!) then it will be through her, not Kieran. Flemeth didn't passed anything to Morrigan she was just robbed by Solas from her own powers. |
|
oyabun
N3
Posts: 374 Likes: 214
inherit
1613
0
Aug 15, 2018 12:36:15 GMT
214
oyabun
374
Sept 17, 2016 22:36:29 GMT
September 2016
oyabun
|
Post by oyabun on Apr 14, 2017 0:12:22 GMT
All the characters involved in the Ultimate sacrifice can't have any major role and that's true regardless of what the player did.
So the Warden,Urthemiel,Kieran,Loghain and Alistair can't have any major role.
|
|
oyabun
N3
Posts: 374 Likes: 214
inherit
1613
0
Aug 15, 2018 12:36:15 GMT
214
oyabun
374
Sept 17, 2016 22:36:29 GMT
September 2016
oyabun
|
Post by oyabun on Apr 14, 2017 0:22:54 GMT
That ship sailed when they took away his Old God Soul. Now he's just like any other kid and I doubt they'll ever make him an important character. I always thought they should've made Kieran a canon character... if the Warden and Alistair refuse the dark ritual, Morrigan could've just gone to Riordan. They gave a reason she couldn't do that. Though I suppose we only have her own word for that. Still, would Riordan have helped her with that? With a murderknife maybe.... Riordan is the latest person who would agree to save an AD soul unless to give it to the control of the GW order.. |
|
Kei
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Jade Empire
Posts: 94 Likes: 128
inherit
2928
0
Jan 20, 2019 16:46:04 GMT
128
Kei
94
Jan 21, 2017 15:40:51 GMT
January 2017
key
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Jade Empire
|
Post by Kei on Apr 14, 2017 0:44:42 GMT
but I want them to respect that choice for all those players who heard her offer and purposely chose to refuse it for whatever reason. The "whatever reason" has a name,which is not gamble the fate of the world just for the interest of one single individual,so it's not really just a "whatever reason". |
|
Kei
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Jade Empire
Posts: 94 Likes: 128
inherit
2928
0
Jan 20, 2019 16:46:04 GMT
128
Kei
94
Jan 21, 2017 15:40:51 GMT
January 2017
key
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Jade Empire
|
Post by Kei on Apr 14, 2017 1:01:33 GMT
If she had gone to Riordan regardless, and been successful with him, then the Warden and Alistair (or Loghain) would have survived. That renders the player's choice meaningless because the choice Morrigan presents to you is a way to survive. There would NO ultimate sacrifice ending because she used Riordan. That is the choice being taken away from the player, their choice to have that ultimate sacrifice. Yes, this. You cannot retcon on the tale that can still be replayed and tracks Warden's status, and it will be a particularly bad form to retcon for the sake an already way too uplifted NPC over one of the protagonists. Protagonist roles are already sidelined by DA franchise vs the NPCs, there is no need to reduce the player agency even more. I want the protagonist matter more in the next game, not less. Particularly if they would commit to the last game in franchise. Actually, I want this to happen, final game, final definite protagonist, final fate of three previous ones. Enough is enough. I don't want Morrigan, let alone Kieran, play an important role, unless they are enemies for my PC to kill. In which case Kieran can be replaced by a servant/follower/Disciple in the next game. The game already spawned enough npc with tons of influence in the realm including in Tevinter. But Morrigan is the worst, because the game never ever lets me get back at her, and my PC always loses to her. I could not even hurt her by giving Kieran to Flemeth to feed on. This is so unfair. I am not going to pretend that I won't buy the game, but if it has an option to finally end Morrigan and leave Kieran as a non-entity, gods bless you, BioWare. It's about time. Agree she has a plot armor. It costed nothing for me to murder her in Redclieffe to sokve the problem there once and for all,but the game force you to let her go,same in WH. |
|
Kei
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Jade Empire
Posts: 94 Likes: 128
inherit
2928
0
Jan 20, 2019 16:46:04 GMT
128
Kei
94
Jan 21, 2017 15:40:51 GMT
January 2017
key
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Jade Empire
|
Post by Kei on Apr 14, 2017 1:04:41 GMT
What's the point, Flemeth is dead. I'd rather inquisitor's soul is bound to Solas. I want an obvious, simple, final victory where there is no chance she bounces back to her feet and turns it into her victory like last time. Last time I did what she wanted, because I believed it that it benefited me in some way, but never again. I will never again grant her request, no matter what. Wait, how did Morrigan turn this into a victory? That Flemeth is dead doesn't mean Morrigan has her free will back. She wasn't really bound to Flemeth. She was bound to Mythal, who could very well still exist and might have plans for Morrigan's power that Morrigan herself would not agree with. She might still wind up getting everything she wants out of this with no permanent drawback (in fact the dev notes suggest Flemeth herself wants that for Morrigan) but it's too early to say that Morrigan already has gotten her perfect ending. Hell, it might be that whoever Mythal winds up in control of is forced to fight the next PC to the death. In fact I kinda hope so, since it means a variable bossfight with a whole bunch of different options. You've answered it by yourself. They will give to her 0 drawback from being bound with Mythal because Gaider was biased towards her. |
|
inherit
1587
0
Nov 20, 2024 21:54:38 GMT
1,772
Walter Black
1,290
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Apr 14, 2017 1:21:59 GMT
Who? Ha...that child that doesn't exist. If you're lucky like adult Connor in DAI you will have an adult Kieran's cameo which consist about two dialogues lines where he is mumbling on about how he is still confused\retarded and that's it. Ah yes, the continued mocking of a young boy still new to voice acting, whose inclusion was a nice nod to the fans and opportunity for Claudia Black to spend more time with her son. Classy  .
Watch that scene again; Flemeth clearly sent a wave of spirit energy through an Eluvian before speaking to Solas. The writers later confirmed that while the Dread Wolf claimed the Witch of the Wild's power, Flemeth released Mythal's soul with the intention of Morrigan receiving it.
|
|
inherit
1836
0
221
doflamingodonquijote
440
Oct 22, 2016 22:16:46 GMT
October 2016
doflamingodonquijote
|
Post by doflamingodonquijote on Apr 14, 2017 1:31:14 GMT
Ah, but Sarevok is NOT a member of your party in Baldur's Gate, and he is mellow in ToB. Sarevok was never obnoxious, just grandiose. And, defeated. In addition, BG modding always had a stronger female following than games themselves proportionately. Modern BG character modding after all started with a romances for female characters because it was so badly lacking. Naturally, there is more consumers for it. And how many original male players of BG2 go into troubles of finding out what happened 15 years down the road in the modded game? I don't think it will be replicated in a DA game, on a new release. EDIT: Bishop's case and the amount of derision Irenicus' Romance mod got back when BG2 was fairly more fresh, than when Sarevok's romance came out (whenever that happened) is more indicative of how most players feel about male morrigans in the games. Sometimes, I wonder how much the hatred of characters like Bishop and Morrigan is based on their "evil" personalities, versus how much they are outside the players control... I hate Morrigan because on top of being stupid evil in DAO she is also a world threat who will always try to save and preserve dangerous things regardless of the consequences and on top of that she can't be murdered (yes I do see her as a threat deserving of death)despite there were plenty of chances to do that in DAO so she is a devs favourite. She will happily try to preserve any dragon even if they live near a city. Of course my contempt is immense for anyone who endangers others just for their own interests (i.e Morrigan,Solas,Howe,Uldred,DR runners,ecc .) |
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Nov 21, 2024 11:52:52 GMT
18,270
Catilina
11,035
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 1:39:12 GMT
Sometimes, I wonder how much the hatred of characters like Bishop and Morrigan is based on their "evil" personalities, versus how much they are outside the players control... I hate Morrigan because on top of being stupid evil in DAO she is also a world threat who will always try to save and preserve dangerous things regardless of the consequences and on top of that she can't be murdered (yes I do see her as a threat deserving of death)despite there were plenty of chances to do that in DAO so she is a deve favourite. She will happily try to preserve any dragon even if they live near a city. Of course my contempt is immense for anyone who endangers others just for their own interests (i.e Morrigan,Solas,Howe,Uldred ,DR runners,ecc .) Your contempt is very rightful and wise against a player, who decided, that Morrigan's offer seems good. Or, wait a minute! Your contempt is funny. I like it. |
|
Prince
N3
Posts: 275 Likes: 309
inherit
1424
0
309
Prince
275
September 2016
principe
|
Post by Prince on Apr 14, 2017 1:44:19 GMT
Who? Ha...that child that doesn't exist. If you're lucky like adult Connor in DAI you will have an adult Kieran's cameo which consist about two dialogues lines where he is mumbling on about how he is still confused\retarded and that's it. Ah yes, the continued mocking of a young boy still new to voice acting, whose inclusion was a nice nod to the fans and opportunity for Claudia Black to spend more time with her son. Classy .
Watch that scene again; Flemeth clearly sent a wave of spirit energy through an Eluvian before speaking to Solas. The writers later confirmed that while the Dread Wolf claimed the Witch of the Wild's power, Flemeth released Mythal's soul with the intention of Morrigan receiving it.
In the first place the soul of Mythal doesn't exist,it was fragmented by the Evanuris into several pieces now scattered around the world,and in part destroyed.Secondly Gaider has already answered about those notes ,he said that they do not represent the plot but just some of the ideas of the writers The Orb of Mythal is Also into those notes but then it became the Orb of Solas. |
|
Prince
N3
Posts: 275 Likes: 309
inherit
1424
0
309
Prince
275
September 2016
principe
|
Post by Prince on Apr 14, 2017 1:49:10 GMT
I hate Morrigan because on top of being stupid evil in DAO she is also a world threat who will always try to save and preserve dangerous things regardless of the consequences and on top of that she can't be murdered (yes I do see her as a threat deserving of death)despite there were plenty of chances to do that in DAO so she is a deve favourite. She will happily try to preserve any dragon even if they live near a city. Of course my contempt is immense for anyone who endangers others just for their own interests (i.e Morrigan,Solas,Howe,Uldred ,DR runners,ecc .) Your contempt is very rightful and wise against a player, who decided, that Morrigan's offer seems good. Or, wait a minute! Your contempt is funny. I like it. Good for the PC not for Thedas,given all the issues related to it.You already know who are those so there is no need to repeat them. |
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Nov 21, 2024 11:52:52 GMT
18,270
Catilina
11,035
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 1:55:06 GMT
Your contempt is very rightful and wise against a player, who decided, that Morrigan's offer seems good. Or, wait a minute! Your contempt is funny. I like it. Good for the PC not for Thedas,given all the issues related to it.You already know who are those so there is no need to repeat them. We can not know for sure, even the Warden. It is a risk. A very interesting risk. For example, a mage Warden can appreciate the experiment. Do not condemn him/her for it, s/he just curious. |
|
secretrare
N2
Games: Dragon Age Inquisition
Posts: 240 Likes: 212
inherit
1602
0
Jul 16, 2018 12:17:31 GMT
212
secretrare
240
Sept 16, 2016 9:42:12 GMT
September 2016
secretrare
Dragon Age Inquisition
|
Post by secretrare on Apr 14, 2017 1:56:28 GMT
I would like to know how?
That cow of Morrigan didn't had any child for me and I assume that's also true for most of those who never played DAO.
|
|
Prince
N3
Posts: 275 Likes: 309
inherit
1424
0
309
Prince
275
September 2016
principe
|
Post by Prince on Apr 14, 2017 2:02:01 GMT
Good for the PC not for Thedas,given all the issues related to it.You already know who are those so there is no need to repeat them. We can not know for sure, even the Warden. It is a risk. A very interesting risk. For example, a mage Warden can appreciate the experiment. What's that isn't sure exactly? -If Urthemiel is killed there are 0% chances that he can cause issues. -If he is not killed there are many different possibilities and a many of them are world threats. A mage may found the experiment of messing with the soul of a kid interesting but that doesn't make them any less selfish NOR the ritual any less dangerous. |
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Nov 21, 2024 11:52:52 GMT
18,270
Catilina
11,035
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 2:04:42 GMT
We can not know for sure, even the Warden. It is a risk. A very interesting risk. For example, a mage Warden can appreciate the experiment. What's that isn't sure exactly? -If Urthemiel is killed there are 0% chances that he can cause issues. -If he is not killed there are many differenti possibilities and a many of them are world threats. A mages may found the experiment of mesding with the soul of a kid interesting but that doesn't make them any less selfish NOR the ritual any less dangerous. Ugh! So selfish and dangerous! Oh my! I like. |
|
Prince
N3
Posts: 275 Likes: 309
inherit
1424
0
309
Prince
275
September 2016
principe
|
Post by Prince on Apr 14, 2017 2:12:05 GMT
What's that isn't sure exactly? -If Urthemiel is killed there are 0% chances that he can cause issues. -If he is not killed there are many differenti possibilities and a many of them are world threats. A mages may found the experiment of mesding with the soul of a kid interesting but that doesn't make them any less selfish NOR the ritual any less dangerous. Ugh! So selfish and dangerous! Oh my! I like. Tell me if you will still like it when Solas will start to murder everyone with that power?Of course that's include the Warden. |
|
inherit
Wanted Apostate
127
0
Nov 21, 2024 11:52:52 GMT
18,270
Catilina
11,035
August 2016
catilina
Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Catilina on Apr 14, 2017 2:16:58 GMT
Ugh! So selfish and dangerous! Oh my! I like. Tell me if you will still like it when Solas will start to murder everyone with that power?Of course that's include the Warden. I can join to him! Look at: this isn't a big danger: Leliana already let the mages free from their cages, so: until Solas comes, the mages will erase Thedas from the star map. They are dangerous. |
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 14, 2017 3:32:18 GMT
All this reminds me of a fan fic I skimmed awhile back where the author tried reconciling the Dark Ritual and Ultimate Sacrifice. Having been denied a willing volunteer, Morrigan used blood magic to rape Alistair in his sleep to still get Ulthemiel's soul (not to mention make another Arthurian shout out). The author speculated that since free will is the most important part of any magical act, by not consenting the father would not receive the DR's protection. Though Alistair was the target in the story, in the comments the author argued that the scenario could've just as easily worked with a male Warden or Lohgain. The idea was... divisive . According to whom? You think people mind controlled by blood magic are willing participants? Yeah, my Hawke was so willing in that scene with Idunna in the Blooming Rose. Magic is used to violate people all the time. What is with this "free will" garbage? If you are using blood magic to get a person to consent, it's not REAL consent, it is still rape, the same way as using any sort of coercion (threats, blackmail, etc) to get a person to "consent" to sex is rape. |
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 14, 2017 3:38:31 GMT
The "whatever reason" has a name,which is not gamble the fate of the world just for the interest of one single individual,so it's not really just a "whatever reason". By "whatever reason" I was referring to a player's personal headcanon and roleplay reasons for making the choice. Those can be for a multitude of reasons, and whatever those are is up to the individual player. Some Wardens might be completely selfish in their choice, wanting only themselves and Alistair to survive, not caring what might happen in the future with the Old God Baby. It is the player's right to have that character and that roleplay. |
|
inherit
1587
0
Nov 20, 2024 21:54:38 GMT
1,772
Walter Black
1,290
Sept 15, 2016 15:02:16 GMT
September 2016
walterblack
|
Post by Walter Black on Apr 14, 2017 4:50:42 GMT
All this reminds me of a fan fic I skimmed awhile back where the author tried reconciling the Dark Ritual and Ultimate Sacrifice. Having been denied a willing volunteer, Morrigan used blood magic to rape Alistair in his sleep to still get Ulthemiel's soul (not to mention make another Arthurian shout out). The author speculated that since free will is the most important part of any magical act, by not consenting the father would not receive the DR's protection. Though Alistair was the target in the story, in the comments the author argued that the scenario could've just as easily worked with a male Warden or Lohgain. The idea was... divisive . According to whom? You think people mind controlled by blood magic are willing participants? Yeah, my Hawke was so willing in that scene with Idunna in the Blooming Rose. Magic is used to violate people all the time. What is with this "free will" garbage? If you are using blood magic to get a person to consent, it's not REAL consent, it is still rape, the same way as using any sort of coercion (threats, blackmail, etc) to get a person to "consent" to sex is rape. A couple of points:
1.) Like I said, I merely skimmed the highlights of that story, and it's been a few years, so my memory of it isn't the best.
2.) The necessity of free will in various magickal philosophies; i.e. having purity* of intent, purpose, will, exchange and consequence, refers more to the participants of the actual casting, rather than ignorant recipients and/or victims. By this definition, a Warden/Alistair/Loghain who denied Morrigan's offer would not be participants. Conversely, most people that I've talked to who believe in magical philosophy consider this a very bad thing . Not just from a moral, legal and psychological standpoint, but that doing something like this would leave one vulnerable to all kinds of spiritual backlash. I don't know if I buy any of it, but then again I was referring specifically to it's use in fiction.
3.) Did you miss my last line, that whole story was "divisive"  ? Aside from ripping off the scene in Excalibur where Morgan Le Fay uses magic to trick Arthur into conceiving Mordred, the author said in the comments that she simply wanted any excuse to both honor the Ultimate Sacrifice, and guarantee that the Old God Baby would play a major role.
4.) While I initially thought the author's concept was an interesting attempt, in the end I didn't agree with it. Just wanted to bring it up as a nice conversation piece.
*Purity as in complete faith and conviction of your stated desire, rather than innocence or nobility.
|
|
inherit
529
0
7,815
Nightscrawl
3,266
August 2016
nightscrawl
Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
|
Post by Nightscrawl on Apr 14, 2017 5:10:44 GMT
^ But where does that even come from? That is what I meant by "according to whom?" Is that expressed in the games or lore books somewhere? As magic is not real, how it's talked about or expressed in other universes has no consequence in Thedas.
|
|
. 
? Aside from ripping off the scene in Excalibur where Morgan Le Fay uses magic to trick Arthur into conceiving Mordred, the author said in the comments that she simply wanted any excuse to both honor the Ultimate Sacrifice, and guarantee that the Old God Baby would play a major role.