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Post by vilegrim on Jun 7, 2017 20:14:11 GMT
yea...about hover vehicles as armoured units: That one was the worse aspects of a Huey and a Hummer in one shell, low, fairly slow, and not bullet proof. Seriously the ME universe needs to L2Tank. At least it had an actual cannon, unlike the Nomad. Who the hell drives into a combat zone with a vehicle you have to jump out of to repel an attack? Granted, combat from within the Mako in ME1 was sometimes a little too easy, but just give the enemies better armor or RPGs if that's the concern. exactly, a bad IFV is better than an ATV.
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Post by Hawke on Jun 8, 2017 13:02:59 GMT
The kett and the Reapers are the same from "Let's make something that the player will be able to kill without any moral issues" angle. Robots and zombies are the easiest choice. Nazis and religious zealots are the close second.
It is disappointing, but fairly typical for the industry. Player mustn't feel bad about the game or question their own actions*.
*NieR, Tyranny and Dark Souls (partially) being rare exceptions.
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Post by caterpillar on Jun 8, 2017 14:36:00 GMT
The kett and the Reapers are the same from "Let's make something that the player will be able to kill without any moral issues" angle. Robots and zombies are the easiest choice. Nazis and religious zealots are the close second. It is disappointing, but fairly typical for the industry. Player mustn't feel bad about the game or question their own actions*. *NieR, Tyranny and Dark Souls (partially) being rare exceptions. A bit off topic, but I felt this pretty hard during Peebee's loyalty mission, when you have the choice to shoot Kalinda or not. During the mission, you kill quite a few of her mercs with no moral issues. And Kalinda tells them she'll give a bonus to anyone who can bring her your 'sweet implant', so she's clearly out to kill you if she can. But if you go ahead and shoot her, the follow up conversation with Peebee treats it like this was some big moral dilemm for you. Like, no, I kill a ton of people who are no worse than Kalinda was, and probably some of them were better people than her, in that they were just trying to survive and taking whatever job would help them get by. And she condemned a bunch of guys to death by dragging them into this space volcano and ordering them to shoot at me. Just because Kalinda has a name, I'm supposed to feel worse about killing her than I do for killing Random Mook #2768? Not to pick on Andromeda specifically, because all games do this in some way, having you kill people by the dozens without any issue, and then making some big issue about killing one specific person.
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Post by obatalaryder on Jun 8, 2017 23:08:00 GMT
The kett and the Reapers are the same from "Let's make something that the player will be able to kill without any moral issues" angle. Robots and zombies are the easiest choice. Nazis and religious zealots are the close second. It is disappointing, but fairly typical for the industry. Player mustn't feel bad about the game or question their own actions*. *NieR, Tyranny and Dark Souls (partially) being rare exceptions. A bit off topic, but I felt this pretty hard during Peebee's loyalty mission, when you have the choice to shoot Kalinda or not. During the mission, you kill quite a few of her mercs with no moral issues. And Kalinda tells them she'll give a bonus to anyone who can bring her your 'sweet implant', so she's clearly out to kill you if she can. But if you go ahead and shoot her, the follow up conversation with Peebee treats it like this was some big moral dilemm for you. Like, no, I kill a ton of people who are no worse than Kalinda was, and probably some of them were better people than her, in that they were just trying to survive and taking whatever job would help them get by. And she condemned a bunch of guys to death by dragging them into this space volcano and ordering them to shoot at me. Just because Kalinda has a name, I'm supposed to feel worse about killing her than I do for killing Random Mook #2768? Not to pick on Andromeda specifically, because all games do this in some way, having you kill people by the dozens without any issue, and then making some big issue about killing one specific person. I told Peebee I didn't have to explain what I did and she immediately got over it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: yangthecat
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Post by caterpillar on Jun 8, 2017 23:29:02 GMT
A bit off topic, but I felt this pretty hard during Peebee's loyalty mission, when you have the choice to shoot Kalinda or not. During the mission, you kill quite a few of her mercs with no moral issues. And Kalinda tells them she'll give a bonus to anyone who can bring her your 'sweet implant', so she's clearly out to kill you if she can. But if you go ahead and shoot her, the follow up conversation with Peebee treats it like this was some big moral dilemm for you. Like, no, I kill a ton of people who are no worse than Kalinda was, and probably some of them were better people than her, in that they were just trying to survive and taking whatever job would help them get by. And she condemned a bunch of guys to death by dragging them into this space volcano and ordering them to shoot at me. Just because Kalinda has a name, I'm supposed to feel worse about killing her than I do for killing Random Mook #2768? Not to pick on Andromeda specifically, because all games do this in some way, having you kill people by the dozens without any issue, and then making some big issue about killing one specific person. I told Peebee I didn't have to explain what I did and she immediately got over it. I'm not really on about the specifics of Peebee's reactions to whatever response you picked, it's the fact that the game (like many other games) presents your killing of one specific enemy you encounter as some kind of moral dilemma, or treats the death as somehow different from the thousands of mooks you kill without question. And. again, not picking on Andromeda specifically because it's the way all games are. Killing people in droves is not presented as a moral issue in most games. But they also like to pretend that your character is not a mass killer dripping in the blood of their enemies, and treat some missions like choosing to kill this one particular enemy would be morally questionable. No one questions the fact that you killed every one of Kalinda's mooks, but you do get asked why you shot Kalinda. Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to make a huge deal about this, it was just a general observation about how enemies in games are presented, in response to Hawke's comment that games like to further dehumanize your enemies by making them zombies, robots and Nazis so you don't have question the morality of killing them.
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Origin: DFMelancholine
XBL Gamertag: dfmelancholine
PSN: DFMelancholine
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Post by commandercryptarch on Jun 9, 2017 8:37:55 GMT
I will agree partly. Yes the Kett are indeed very disappointing and I hated the Archon.He was a half baked boring villain with whom my character hardly had any sort of interaction.He never made me feel a thing. The Reapers on the other hand? Loved the whole concept, then scene with Sovereign still makes me feel awe and fear .The downside? That very concept "broke" the MW making it impossible to ever have a story there again.Other than that....I m team Reaper
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Post by steppinrazor on Jun 9, 2017 16:34:42 GMT
I told Peebee I didn't have to explain what I did and she immediately got over it. I'm not really on about the specifics of Peebee's reactions to whatever response you picked, it's the fact that the game (like many other games) presents your killing of one specific enemy you encounter as some kind of moral dilemma, or treats the death as somehow different from the thousands of mooks you kill without question. And. again, not picking on Andromeda specifically because it's the way all games are. Killing people in droves is not presented as a moral issue in most games. But they also like to pretend that your character is not a mass killer dripping in the blood of their enemies, and treat some missions like choosing to kill this one particular enemy would be morally questionable. No one questions the fact that you killed every one of Kalinda's mooks, but you do get asked why you shot Kalinda. Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to make a huge deal about this, it was just a general observation about how enemies in games are presented, in response to Hawke's comment that games like to further dehumanize your enemies by making them zombies, robots and Nazis so you don't have question the morality of killing them. Well, if you're gonna kill someone, better to not know they're a loving fathher or something. "Faceless" people are a lot easier to kill lol. But no, I totally get what you mean and I agree, it does get a bit ridiculous, after killing people by the hundreds haha. But someone like Ryder killing that many people? He should have PTSD by the end of the game. "So much death"
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Jun 10, 2017 16:09:18 GMT
I miss Harbinger
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Post by themikefest on Jun 10, 2017 16:16:11 GMT
Yep. ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL
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Post by mendelbear1 on Jul 20, 2017 1:40:31 GMT
I think this post has gone off topic. I think the kett had potential but were poorly written in the game. They have these hints of background and only reproduce through a genetic assimilation process... but then the writers made the kett a race of pseudo-religious and always blatantly evil aliens (Exaltation is treated the same as a religion except it lacks any God, god or higher being, any supernatural elements or any moral teachings). No one in the game has anything positive to say about the kett and there are so many Nazi parallels (psychotic leader, aggressive expansion, death camps, invasive experiments, master race obsession) it's uncharacteristically unsubtle of Bioware (it could only be more blatant if the kett had swastikas and shouted "Heil Archon!").
There were also two aspects in particular I noticed about the kett. To quote Mordin, "Implications unpleasant."; * The Archon has a crest that grows above his head into a circle that looks similar to the popular image of an angel's halo. Despite this good imagery he is a very blatant villain, even compared to other kett. The higher-ranking kett wear clothes with collars that evoke the image of a halo shining with light in their shape. * Three of the kett characters use titles from real life religions; Christianity and Gnosticism. Archon comes Gnosticism, while Cardinal and Primus come from Christianity (the former being a clerical rank in Catholicism and Primus is one of the titles of the head of the Scottish Episcopal Church). Using real-life clerical titles for a fictional race of always evil aliens is very on-the-nose (while Archons in Gnosticism are considered antagonistic, Cardinal and Primus are not) and makes me leery of the intentions of the game devs who came up with that and those who approved it; imagine the reaction from fans and the media if the characters were called "Rabbi" instead of "Cardinal", or "Sheikh" instead of Primus.
On a side note, if religious zealots in video games are a "...something that the player will be able to kill without any moral issues" I wonder if the same could be applied to militant atheists; they're the opposite side of the same coin as religious zealots (same thing in methods but for the opposite cause), but you never see them as villains in games.
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Post by Hawke on Jul 21, 2017 14:15:41 GMT
mendelbear1 I disagree. As you said the kett philosophy does not include any god or supernatural element, thus resemblance to any religion is purely aesthetic. They are, strictly speaking, atheists. If you'd like to see antagonists, based on the Christian mythology, I'd suggest to look at Devil May Cry 4, Bayonetta, Final Fantasy XIII - Lightning Returns and Pillars of Eternity as examples. The only thing the Archon looks like is Terrifying creatures, these are. The fact that 3 three of the kett characters use titles from real life religions could mean that the target audience is familiar with the said religions enough to understand the kett hierarchy, but not enough to consider it offensive. Somehow I didn't recognize them (except the Cardinal, which reminded more of a French historical figure). As for atheist villains in games - all characters are atheists (villains included), unless explicitly specified otherwise. Which makes the Reapers, the Collectors and the Kett (they certainly have used violent methods to support their cause) fit the description. Edit. Decided to add the list with all antagonists in PC games fitting the description, I have encountered personally (format: game - character's name (title, if it's a major spoiler)/group/every possible opponent): ABZU - everyone; Alpha Protocol - everyone; Analogue: A Hate Story - everyone; Black The Fall - everyone; Bully - Gary; Dark Souls II - the final boss of the vanilla version; Deus Ex: Human Revolution/Mankind Divided - everyone, except Allison Stanek; Devil May Cry 3 - Virgil; Dust: An Elysian Tale - the final boss; Fable: The Lost Chapters - the final boss; Fallout 4 - the Institute/the Brotherhood of Steel/the Railroad; Hatoful Boyfriend - everyone (it's a dating-sim parody); Life is Strange - the killer; Long Live The Queen - the final boss; Mars: War Logs/The Technomancer - everyone; Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance - everyone, except the final boss; Metal Gear Solid V - everyone; Mirror's Edge - everyone; Portal 1/2 - everyone; Prototype - everyone; Saints Row the series - every opponent; Shadowrun: Dragonfall - the main antagonist; Shadowrun: Boston Lockdown - the main antagonists; Sword Coast Legends - the final boss; Torment: Tides of Numenera - the Sorrow and its creators; Transistor - the Camerada; Tyranny - everyone (calling Kyros a God would be an insult to her); Watch_Dogs - the final boss; Bioshock 1/2 - Andrew Ryan, Atlas, Sophia Lamb; DmC Devil May Cry - the final boss; Enslaved: Odyssey to the West - the main antagonist; Freedom Fall - the final boss; Inversion - the Lutadors; The Next Big Thing - the main antagonist; Papo & Yo - protagonist's father; Way of the Samurai 4 - the final boss; Zeno Clash 1/2 - everyone;
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Post by Psychevore on Jul 22, 2017 11:04:12 GMT
I told Peebee I didn't have to explain what I did and she immediately got over it. I'm not really on about the specifics of Peebee's reactions to whatever response you picked, it's the fact that the game (like many other games) presents your killing of one specific enemy you encounter as some kind of moral dilemma, or treats the death as somehow different from the thousands of mooks you kill without question. And. again, not picking on Andromeda specifically because it's the way all games are. Killing people in droves is not presented as a moral issue in most games. But they also like to pretend that your character is not a mass killer dripping in the blood of their enemies, and treat some missions like choosing to kill this one particular enemy would be morally questionable. No one questions the fact that you killed every one of Kalinda's mooks, but you do get asked why you shot Kalinda. Just to reiterate, I'm not trying to make a huge deal about this, it was just a general observation about how enemies in games are presented, in response to Hawke's comment that games like to further dehumanize your enemies by making them zombies, robots and Nazis so you don't have question the morality of killing them. But there better not be female human(oid) nipples in the game, cause then we'll slap on an 18+ rating. Slightly off, I know, but it bugs me immensely that somehow the mass murder on an almost genocidal scale doesn't get the same treatment. As if nipples are somehow worse.
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Post by smilesja on Jul 23, 2017 15:43:22 GMT
As mentioned games do that all the time. Have you kill enemies who are shooting at you while having you hesitate at the more developed characters.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jul 24, 2017 8:21:20 GMT
I think this post has gone off topic. I think the kett had potential but were poorly written in the game. They have these hints of background and only reproduce through a genetic assimilation process... but then the writers made the kett a race of pseudo-religious and always blatantly evil aliens (Exaltation is treated the same as a religion except it lacks any God, god or higher being, any supernatural elements or any moral teachings). No one in the game has anything positive to say about the kett and there are so many Nazi parallels (psychotic leader, aggressive expansion, death camps, invasive experiments, master race obsession) it's uncharacteristically unsubtle of Bioware (it could only be more blatant if the kett had swastikas and shouted "Heil Archon!"). There were also two aspects in particular I noticed about the kett. To quote Mordin, "Implications unpleasant."; * The Archon has a crest that grows above his head into a circle that looks similar to the popular image of an angel's halo. Despite this good imagery he is a very blatant villain, even compared to other kett. The higher-ranking kett wear clothes with collars that evoke the image of a halo shining with light in their shape. * Three of the kett characters use titles from real life religions; Christianity and Gnosticism. Archon comes Gnosticism, while Cardinal and Primus come from Christianity (the former being a clerical rank in Catholicism and Primus is one of the titles of the head of the Scottish Episcopal Church). Using real-life clerical titles for a fictional race of always evil aliens is very on-the-nose (while Archons in Gnosticism are considered antagonistic, Cardinal and Primus are not) and makes me leery of the intentions of the game devs who came up with that and those who approved it; imagine the reaction from fans and the media if the characters were called "Rabbi" instead of "Cardinal", or "Sheikh" instead of Primus. On a side note, if religious zealots in video games are a "...something that the player will be able to kill without any moral issues" I wonder if the same could be applied to militant atheists; they're the opposite side of the same coin as religious zealots (same thing in methods but for the opposite cause), but you never see them as villains in games. That's not really surprising though. I mean, let's face it, demonizing Chrisitanity and using Chrisitian symbology and titles for your antagonists is totally fine in the Western media enteratinment because Christanity deserves it I guess, and in the West isn't typically seen as a marginalized group. Jewish people and Muslims are though so using Rabbi or Sheikh will be seen as offensive to many people while Christanity would not be. Think of it this way, I could probably get away with calling someone a hillbilly on this site but would get banned if I used the N-word. Tvtropes has a term for this and its called Acceptable Targets.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Guts on Jul 24, 2017 8:33:49 GMT
I liked Andromeda, but yeah the Kett were pretty uninteresting. I think the only thing the Archon was missing was a moustache to twirl. I mean a bunch of xenophobic and social darwinist aliens? Bleh. Side note (To anyone who plays Warframe): Doesn't the Kett remind anyone of the Grineer, the way their technology works, the fact that they are both extremely xenophobic, etc.
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Post by mendelbear1 on Jul 26, 2017 7:19:37 GMT
mendelbear1 I disagree. As you said the kett philosophy does not include any god or supernatural element, thus resemblance to any religion is purely aesthetic. They are, strictly speaking, atheists. If you'd like to see antagonists, based on the Christian mythology, I'd suggest to look at Devil May Cry 4, Bayonetta, Final Fantasy XIII - Lightning Returns and Pillars of Eternity as examples. The only thing the Archon looks like is Terrifying creatures, these are. The fact that 3 three of the kett characters use titles from real life religions could mean that the target audience is familiar with the said religions enough to understand the kett hierarchy, but not enough to consider it offensive. Somehow I didn't recognize them (except the Cardinal, which reminded more of a French historical figure). As for atheist villains in games - all characters are atheists (villains included), unless explicitly specified otherwise. Which makes the Reapers, the Collectors and the Kett (they certainly have used violent methods to support their cause) fit the description. Edit. Decided to add the list with all antagonists in PC games fitting the description, I have encountered personally (format: game - character's name (title, if it's a major spoiler)/group/every possible opponent): ABZU - everyone; Alpha Protocol - everyone; Analogue: A Hate Story - everyone; Black The Fall - everyone; Bully - Gary; Dark Souls II - the final boss of the vanilla version; Deus Ex: Human Revolution/Mankind Divided - everyone, except Allison Stanek; Devil May Cry 3 - Virgil; Dust: An Elysian Tale - the final boss; Fable: The Lost Chapters - the final boss; Fallout 4 - the Institute/the Brotherhood of Steel/the Railroad; Hatoful Boyfriend - everyone (it's a dating-sim parody); Life is Strange - the killer; Long Live The Queen - the final boss; Mars: War Logs/The Technomancer - everyone; Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance - everyone, except the final boss; Metal Gear Solid V - everyone; Mirror's Edge - everyone; Portal 1/2 - everyone; Prototype - everyone; Saints Row the series - every opponent; Shadowrun: Dragonfall - the main antagonist; Shadowrun: Boston Lockdown - the main antagonists; Sword Coast Legends - the final boss; Torment: Tides of Numenera - the Sorrow and its creators; Transistor - the Camerada; Tyranny - everyone (calling Kyros a God would be an insult to her); Watch_Dogs - the final boss; Bioshock 1/2 - Andrew Ryan, Atlas, Sophia Lamb; DmC Devil May Cry - the final boss; Enslaved: Odyssey to the West - the main antagonist; Freedom Fall - the final boss; Inversion - the Lutadors; The Next Big Thing - the main antagonist; Papo & Yo - protagonist's father; Way of the Samurai 4 - the final boss; Zeno Clash 1/2 - everyone;
That is a hilarious comparison of the Archon and the Teletubbies. I know the Archon's face has been compared to that of baby monkeys by fans, but this is funnier. I might just point that out (whether that was intentional will have to wait until someone from Bioware can confirm or deny it). Anagonists using imagery from Christianity (keep in mind you are talking to a Christian) can be done well. Personally I only take issue if it is portraying something or someone good from Christianity in a villainous light. Not to mention how the use of religious imagery and titles was a deliberate choice on the part of the writers and artists. I'm not sure how much capability the Collectors have for independent thought, so I'm not sure something could be said for their beliefs, if they're capable at that point. About your line; "The fact that 3 three of the kett characters use titles from real life religions could mean that the target audience is familiar with the said religions enough to understand the kett hierarchy, but not enough to consider it offensive." I don't think that makes sense. The use of titles from real-life religions is the writer's decision, not the fans. I think that more generic and less-group specific titles could've been used (such as "priest" or even making up a new title, the kett's main language isn't English) could've achieved the same effect more subtly; to understand the problem using titles from real-life religions, imagine how some fans and the media would've reacted if, for example, the Cardinal had been called "Sheikh", a title from Islam or "Rabbi" a title from Judaism (which while I wouldn't be as bothered by it, I would leery of such a choice). These are familiar as well, and travelling down this line of thinking would become a discussion on double standards and how different religions are perceived and treated in society in real-life, especially by non-members and Western media. I disagree with the notion that "All characters are atheists unless specified otherwise"; there is such a thing as a blank slate character where they can be whatever the writers want them to be, or they were merely overlooked (assuming they're atheist implies a personal bias on the part of the person making the assumption; I'm a Christian but I don't assume anything about the beliefs of fictional characters if they're unspecified unless something is implied, such as an aggressively materialist outburst or they're wearing something like a hijab or a yarmukle).
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Post by mendelbear1 on Jul 26, 2017 7:30:35 GMT
I think this post has gone off topic. I think the kett had potential but were poorly written in the game. They have these hints of background and only reproduce through a genetic assimilation process... but then the writers made the kett a race of pseudo-religious and always blatantly evil aliens (Exaltation is treated the same as a religion except it lacks any God, god or higher being, any supernatural elements or any moral teachings). No one in the game has anything positive to say about the kett and there are so many Nazi parallels (psychotic leader, aggressive expansion, death camps, invasive experiments, master race obsession) it's uncharacteristically unsubtle of Bioware (it could only be more blatant if the kett had swastikas and shouted "Heil Archon!"). There were also two aspects in particular I noticed about the kett. To quote Mordin, "Implications unpleasant."; * The Archon has a crest that grows above his head into a circle that looks similar to the popular image of an angel's halo. Despite this good imagery he is a very blatant villain, even compared to other kett. The higher-ranking kett wear clothes with collars that evoke the image of a halo shining with light in their shape. * Three of the kett characters use titles from real life religions; Christianity and Gnosticism. Archon comes Gnosticism, while Cardinal and Primus come from Christianity (the former being a clerical rank in Catholicism and Primus is one of the titles of the head of the Scottish Episcopal Church). Using real-life clerical titles for a fictional race of always evil aliens is very on-the-nose (while Archons in Gnosticism are considered antagonistic, Cardinal and Primus are not) and makes me leery of the intentions of the game devs who came up with that and those who approved it; imagine the reaction from fans and the media if the characters were called "Rabbi" instead of "Cardinal", or "Sheikh" instead of Primus. On a side note, if religious zealots in video games are a "...something that the player will be able to kill without any moral issues" I wonder if the same could be applied to militant atheists; they're the opposite side of the same coin as religious zealots (same thing in methods but for the opposite cause), but you never see them as villains in games. That's not really surprising though. I mean, let's face it, demonizing Chrisitanity and using Chrisitian symbology and titles for your antagonists is totally fine in the Western media enteratinment because Christanity deserves it I guess, and in the West isn't typically seen as a marginalized group. Jewish people and Muslims are though so using Rabbi or Sheikh will be seen as offensive to many people while Christanity would not be. Think of it this way, I could probably get away with calling someone a hillbilly on this site but would get banned if I used the N-word. Tvtropes has a term for this and its called Acceptable Targets. "because Christanity deserves it I guess". I suggest you rethink that attitude (it's not hate speech but it's one step away). I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not trolling. In addition to being a Christian myself, the attitude and view you expressed is a case of the association fallacy. It's insulting to the Christians who are persecuted minorities, and the ones who die for being Christian, in countries including but not limited to Pakistan and North Korea, plus you're smearing us by association with the actions of a minority (such as the Spanish Inquisition, who's reputation was based in truth but later widely exaggerated by their detractors). Your smearing of all Christians by association because of actions such as the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic church sex scandal is at least as bad as smearing all Muslims by association because of the actions of Bin Laden and ISIS or all atheists by association because of atheists like Stalin and the Kim Dynasty ruling North Korea. Such an attitude and view is a prejudiced double-standard (as is your example of calling someone a hillbilly being acceptable but using the N-word being unacceptable, though I consider both terms deplorable and wouldn't use them. I am concerned and suspicious that the writers who did this think as you do, and your prejudiced remark contributes to proving my point.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jul 26, 2017 12:38:17 GMT
That's not really surprising though. I mean, let's face it, demonizing Chrisitanity and using Chrisitian symbology and titles for your antagonists is totally fine in the Western media enteratinment because Christanity deserves it I guess, and in the West isn't typically seen as a marginalized group. Jewish people and Muslims are though so using Rabbi or Sheikh will be seen as offensive to many people while Christanity would not be. Think of it this way, I could probably get away with calling someone a hillbilly on this site but would get banned if I used the N-word. Tvtropes has a term for this and its called Acceptable Targets. "because Christanity deserves it I guess". I suggest you rethink that attitude (it's not hate speech but it's one step away). I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not trolling. In addition to being a Christian myself, the attitude and view you expressed is a case of the association fallacy. It's insulting to the Christians who are persecuted minorities, and the ones who die for being Christian, in countries including but not limited to Pakistan and North Korea, plus you're smearing us by association with the actions of a minority (such as the Spanish Inquisition, who's reputation was based in truth but later widely exaggerated by their detractors). Your smearing of all Christians by association because of actions such as the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic church sex scandal is at least as bad as smearing all Muslims by association because of the actions of Bin Laden and ISIS or all atheists by association because of atheists like Stalin and the Kim Dynasty ruling North Korea. Such an attitude and view is a prejudiced double-standard (as is your example of calling someone a hillbilly being acceptable but using the N-word being unacceptable, though I consider both terms deplorable and wouldn't use them. I am concerned and suspicious that the writers who did this think as you do, and your prejudiced remark contributes to proving my point. I don't share the opinion that Christians deserve derision as a group and was only using them to explain why the Kett probably have Chrisitan titles and not Muslim or Jewish ones. Like I said, Chrisitans are culturally seen as an Acceptable Target in some parts of the west (Catholic priest jokes about young boys being molested, people assuming that their homophobic, etc) and as a result people are comfortable demonizing them more than any other religion in the world. It is a prejuiced double-standard to be sure and I think its a pathetic method of getting away with dehumanizating other people and thinking you're a progressively-minded hero because of it. It's one of the major reasons why I dislike the Kett. Making them vague religious fanatics who want to convert people by the sword is pretty cliched at this point and understandably offensive to religious people like yourself who may be really tired of that trope.
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Post by Gileadan on Jul 26, 2017 14:19:31 GMT
Anyone remember that BioWare was talking about the players empathizing with the kett before launch or is that just my weird memory again? If that was their plan at any time, it certainly didn't work.
I also honestly don't understand why the AI would refer to kett ground troops as "Chosen", "Annointed" or "Destined". That's most likely what the kett call them, but why would we do that? Wouldn't we realistically use monikers that describe their combat role? Something like "rifle infantry", "heavy infantry" and "stealth infantry"?
After all, just because a certain real world faction refers to their terrorists as "martyrs" doesn't make anyone else adopt that moniker either. They still call them terrorists.
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Post by Hawke on Jul 26, 2017 14:28:43 GMT
Anyone remember that BioWare was talking about the players empathizing with the kett before launch or is that just my weird memory again? If that was their plan at any time, it certainly didn't work. I also honestly don't understand why the AI would refer to kett ground troops as "Chosen", "Annointed" or "Destined". That's most likely what the kett call them, but why would we do that? Wouldn't we realistically use monikers that describe their combat role? Something like "rifle infantry", "heavy infantry" and "stealth infantry"? After all, just because a certain real world faction refers to their terrorists as "martyrs" doesn't make anyone else adopt that moniker either. They still call them terrorists. On Habitat 7 they're called "Unknown". Lore-wise, SAM translated the titles the kett themselves used. I can't explain it from any practical standpoint. From the narrative one, it was to empathize on their unique culture and history, I suppose.
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Post by mendelbear1 on Jul 27, 2017 7:05:09 GMT
"because Christanity deserves it I guess". I suggest you rethink that attitude (it's not hate speech but it's one step away). I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not trolling. In addition to being a Christian myself, the attitude and view you expressed is a case of the association fallacy. It's insulting to the Christians who are persecuted minorities, and the ones who die for being Christian, in countries including but not limited to Pakistan and North Korea, plus you're smearing us by association with the actions of a minority (such as the Spanish Inquisition, who's reputation was based in truth but later widely exaggerated by their detractors). Your smearing of all Christians by association because of actions such as the Spanish Inquisition and the Catholic church sex scandal is at least as bad as smearing all Muslims by association because of the actions of Bin Laden and ISIS or all atheists by association because of atheists like Stalin and the Kim Dynasty ruling North Korea. Such an attitude and view is a prejudiced double-standard (as is your example of calling someone a hillbilly being acceptable but using the N-word being unacceptable, though I consider both terms deplorable and wouldn't use them. I am concerned and suspicious that the writers who did this think as you do, and your prejudiced remark contributes to proving my point. I don't share the opinion that Christians deserve derision as a group and was only using them to explain why the Kett probably have Chrisitan titles and not Muslim or Jewish ones. Like I said, Chrisitans are culturally seen as an Acceptable Target in some parts of the west (Catholic priest jokes about young boys being molested, people assuming that their homophobic, etc) and as a result people are comfortable demonizing them more than any other religion in the world. It is a prejuiced double-standard to be sure and I think its a pathetic method of getting away with dehumanizating other people and thinking your progressively-minded hero because of it. It's one of the major reasons why I dislike the Kett. Making them vague religious fanatics who want to convert people by the sword is pretty cliched at this point and understanding offensive to religious people like yourself who may be really tried of that trope. I have grievously misunderstood you. Thank you for your politeness and clarifying what you meant, and I apologize for my accusation directed at you. While I think we may have different religious beliefs, I otherwise agree completely with what you're saying about the kett (and maintain my leeriness towards the writers). I am tired of that trope on three levels, because it's overused overall, the "convert people at swordpoint" is not what Christianity should be or is (Christ Himself instructed us to "make disciples of all nations..." and to "shake the dust off [your] feet..." (a saying from that time meaning to walk away) from those who "...refuse to listen or receive you".) and because my own faith/religion keeps getting singled out. On a side note, if a religion besides mine, such as Islam, was the one being singled out (as was the case for a few years after 9/11), I would not be as offended but still find it cliche, dishonest and discriminatory.
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Post by mendelbear1 on Jul 27, 2017 7:14:11 GMT
Anyone remember that BioWare was talking about the players empathizing with the kett before launch or is that just my weird memory again? If that was their plan at any time, it certainly didn't work. I also honestly don't understand why the AI would refer to kett ground troops as "Chosen", "Annointed" or "Destined". That's most likely what the kett call them, but why would we do that? Wouldn't we realistically use monikers that describe their combat role? Something like "rifle infantry", "heavy infantry" and "stealth infantry"? After all, just because a certain real world faction refers to their terrorists as "martyrs" doesn't make anyone else adopt that moniker either. They still call them terrorists. I remember this; you're right. In fact members of the dev team outright stated it was their intention in the video I've linked here. Either the game devs changed their minds, have a warped idea of empathy, or were lying about wanting people to empathize with the kett. I understand what you're saying about the strange names of kett units; if they wanted, for example, to give them creative names they could've named them based on the effects of their weapons (like "kett Pulsar Infantry" or after their combat abilities "kett Vanguard"). I don't know whether the reason for this was explained in game (apart from the scene where the Archon introduced himself as such, which is strange since the kett come from another galaxy and have no interest in human cultures, religions or history), so I don't know how the Initiative learned those terms.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Jul 27, 2017 13:21:11 GMT
I don't share the opinion that Christians deserve derision as a group and was only using them to explain why the Kett probably have Chrisitan titles and not Muslim or Jewish ones. Like I said, Chrisitans are culturally seen as an Acceptable Target in some parts of the west (Catholic priest jokes about young boys being molested, people assuming that their homophobic, etc) and as a result people are comfortable demonizing them more than any other religion in the world. It is a prejuiced double-standard to be sure and I think its a pathetic method of getting away with dehumanizating other people and thinking your progressively-minded hero because of it. It's one of the major reasons why I dislike the Kett. Making them vague religious fanatics who want to convert people by the sword is pretty cliched at this point and understanding offensive to religious people like yourself who may be really tried of that trope. I have grievously misunderstood you. Thank you for your politeness and clarifying what you meant, and I apologize for my accusation directed at you. While I think we may have different religious beliefs, I otherwise agree completely with what you're saying about the kett (and maintain my leeriness towards the writers). I am tired of that trope on three levels, because it's overused overall, the "convert people at swordpoint" is not what Christianity should be or is (Christ Himself instructed us to "make disciples of all nations..." and to "shake the dust off [your] feet..." (a saying from that time meaning to walk away) from those who "...refuse to listen or receive you".) and because my own faith/religion keeps getting singled out. On a side note, if a religion besides mine, such as Islam, was the one being singled out (as was the case for a few years after 9/11), I would not be as offended but still find it cliche, dishonest and discriminatory. No problem. I was being careless with that comment anyways and it was a good thing that someone called me out so I could make myself more clear.
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Post by rapscallioness on Aug 2, 2017 2:54:09 GMT
I suspect the devs thought we would empathize with the Kett when we found out they were Angaran. Although, they're not anymore, but that connection was made.
And then coming across bits of datapad that relay the story of a Kett that was remembering their past...being... when on Voeld, I believe it was Voeld. This Kett/Angaran was confused as to why they were having these memories and feeling this emotional pain. I think they said something about how it hurts to be here, and how they needed to go from Voeld because it hurt too much. But they did not understand why.
That was the only time I recall that we got such insight into the Kett, and what they're actually going through. It's very sad, tbh. Unfortunately, that most interesting bit of lore and insight about the Kett?Angara was left to one little rando datapad.
IIRC, it was a rando datapad you come across. To me, that kind of info is pretty important in fleshing out these characters. Yet it was left to that datapad, and not really explored further.
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Post by riou on Aug 5, 2017 8:54:06 GMT
I honestly liked the Kett as villains because they were on the same playing field as us. The issue with the Reapers is that they were just this nebulous 'thing' that existed to loom over us and remind us they were coming. You were never going to really 'fight' them, and I knew that from as far back as ME1 (which made the complaints that a conventional victory doesn't exist all the more amusing).
The Kett, being 'human' (or rather, humanoid, made their actions easier to hate. Their dedication to the act of exaltation, the fact they're part of a larger empire, etc, etc.
The Reapers could only ever serve a narrative role. That's why Cerberus was made the primary enemy.
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