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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2017 16:47:50 GMT
Thank you very much for your hard work, much appreciated! IMO, this should be put somewhere (in fact, anywhere!) where devs regularly visit to get feedback! If we have to do the balancing for them, we might as well make sure they get the right numbers for their homework.
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hardcoresalmon
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Post by hardcoresalmon on Apr 16, 2017 17:15:58 GMT
The biggest problem I see with the balance here is that weapons that are difficult to use/not very accurate/difficult to get are not some of the most damaging and sometimes the worst.
The Vanquisher: Light, Easy to get (just a rare), Perfectly accurate, no recoil, fairly short reload, large clip size for a sniper, easy to headshot with and best damage in the game in all situations.
The Valkyrie: Very light, hard to get (ultra rare), very innacurate with bad recoil, short reload, average clip size, hard to headshot because of the recoil and 2nd worst damage in the game.
There's almost no logic to this and the balance just feels random
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Post by kalil on Apr 16, 2017 17:20:43 GMT
The biggest problem I see with the balance here is that weapons that are difficult to use/not very accurate/difficult to get are not some of the most damaging and sometimes the worst. The Vanquisher: Light, Easy to get (just a rare), Perfectly accurate, no recoil, fairly short reload, large clip size for a sniper, easy to headshot with and best damage in the game in all situations. The Valkyrie: Very light, hard to get (ultra rare), very innacurate with bad recoil, short reload, average clip size, hard to headshot because of the recoil and 2nd worst damage in the game. There's almost no logic to this and the balance just feels random Yeah. It is frankly utterly mind blowing that it is even possible to get it this level of wrong. I mean HOW?!?! They have all these figures without needing to experiment or calculate. It is incompetence of staggering proportions.
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Post by ramsen on Apr 16, 2017 19:16:52 GMT
Surprised the talon is so high without magazine mod :0
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megabeast37215
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Post by megabeast37215 on Apr 16, 2017 19:29:46 GMT
Thank you Salmon.
I've been trying to tell people about the Hesh for some time now but nobody would listen to me.. not even my friends. Granted, the accuracy is shit.. but on a Vanguard, at point blank range, it has produced for me. ROF is such an important factor in TTK.. but some folks just don't get it.
Basically.. this chart of yours confirms a lot of my suspicions, except about the Valiant. I'll have to revisit this.
..and whoever didn't know the Revenant was good is a dumb dumb. When you're low on pistol amps for your Hurricane.. this is the gun you reach for.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on Apr 16, 2017 19:41:48 GMT
Thank you for doing this, but that mattock...
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Transcended One
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Post by Transcended One on Apr 16, 2017 19:51:34 GMT
Thank you Salmon. I've been trying to tell people about the Hesh for some time now but nobody would listen to me.. not even my friends. Granted, the accuracy is shit.. but on a Vanguard, at point blank range, it has produced for me. ROF is such an important factor in TTK.. but some folks just don't get it. Basically.. this chart of yours confirms a lot of my suspicions, except about the Valiant. I'll have to revisit this. ..and whoever didn't know the Revenant was good is a dumb dumb. When you're low on pistol amps for your Hurricane.. this is the gun you reach for. I agree, I mentioned a couple of times myself that the Hesh isn't that much worse than Piranha. Yeah the accuracy sucks, but so does the Piranha's. I'm disappointed by the Black Widow performance though. Sure it has a low rate of fire, and a really slooowww reload speed, but still... I suspected that taking it over the Inferno wasn't necessarily a better choice... Yeah yeah Vanquisher beats all but it's boring to use the same gun everyone else uses (though Isharay is quite popular too!)
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LemurFromTheId
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Post by LemurFromTheId on Apr 16, 2017 19:56:28 GMT
ROF is such an important factor in TTK.. but some folks just don't get it. The following isn't directed towards you, it's just something that came to mind when I was reading what you wrote. What I don't understand is how some people (quite a lot of people, in fact) look at damage and ROF in isolation and say stuff like "Hurricane's high rate of fire is what makes it a great gun" or "with Combat Cloak you want a high-ROF weapon so you can shoot as many bullets as possible during the two-second window". Total damage output is always a product of both damage per shot and rate of fire and never determined by just one of the two. Yet there are always people who believe that weapons with high damage per shot benefit relatively more from weapon damage bonuses... /rant
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Post by xaijin on Apr 16, 2017 19:57:50 GMT
Surprised the talon is so high without magazine mod :0 Aim for the neck and watch the magic happen. Told y'all.
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TormDK
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Post by TormDK on Apr 16, 2017 19:58:21 GMT
Do one with barrel X and mag size (where available - so for AR's - I'd like to see how far the Thokin can be pushed.)
*EDIT* Since this is a spread sheet, could you link it somewhere?
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Post by neocodex and 23 others on Apr 16, 2017 20:46:05 GMT
Can we also compare BW and Vanquisher in a 3 second burst duration?
Reason for that is that for my liking, BW ussualy works out better because it just has that much enough extra damage to finish off a mook or middle tier enemy, where Vanquisher would sometimes leave them at 10-20% and would require a third shot or strong amps. That is, if we compare both guns at lvl 1, since it was my luck to get BW before the Vanq and my Vanq is still lvl 3.
Of course, a level X Vanq vs lvl I BW, Vanq is obviously better and easier to get in real world scenario, but let's say if you straight out compare them at the same level, just for that 2-3 shot duration to kill a normal sized enemy (which is majority of the MEA enemy lineup), without any doubt Vanq will always have higher sustained dps, but for me in practice it's easier to kill something with a 2 shot BW than having to aim for 3 headshots on a Vanq. There is also the question how many shots can you squeeze in during the 2 second tactical cloak duration, can you do 3, or more?
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Post by sigge on Apr 16, 2017 20:49:08 GMT
I like how at the bottom 10 there are three UR and only one common. That's just sad.
And on the point of the Revenant, I personally like it better than the Hurricane, at my current ranks. VIII and I respectively. I seem to be able to hit more with the Revenant than I do with the Hurricane. And I don't need to visit the ammo box nearly as often (I don't have the thermal clip gear) Maybe when my Hurricane gets more ranks and spare ammo, I might like it more. This is on the Human Sentinel specced fully for weapon damage and accuracy.
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Post by deadwooded on Apr 16, 2017 20:50:46 GMT
Edit: Added now, it doesn't perform as well as it could here without the magazine mod. I'll do a version with weapon mods later. I have noticed that the Equalizer seems to reload faster if it's not overheated. I'm not 100% sure on this though. But if that's the case, a player would want to fire as much as possible without overheating (theoretically 1% charge but in practice probably 5-10%) before waiting for it to recharge/reload fully. Would it be possible for you to investigate the reload/recharge time of overheated vs. not overheated? I bump fire that little bitch...usually in 20-30% bursts
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Post by hardcoresalmon on Apr 16, 2017 21:47:21 GMT
Do one with barrel X and mag size (where available - so for AR's - I'd like to see how far the Thokin can be pushed.) *EDIT* Since this is a spread sheet, could you link it somewhere? You can download it here
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Post by kpeter on Apr 16, 2017 22:12:45 GMT
Charts are nice, but this whole dps thing goes down in the toilet when half of the ar rounds are missing or because shotguns/talon etc. doesnt hit because enemy is not at point blank range. In the current state of the game only snipers can really deliver their expected dps.
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Post by hardcoresalmon on Apr 16, 2017 22:19:06 GMT
Can we also compare BW and Vanquisher in a 3 second burst duration? Reason for that is that for my liking, BW ussualy works out better because it just has that much enough extra damage to finish off a mook or middle tier enemy, where Vanquisher would sometimes leave them at 10-20% and would require a third shot or strong amps. That is, if we compare both guns at lvl 1, since it was my luck to get BW before the Vanq and my Vanq is still lvl 3. Of course, a level X Vanq vs lvl I BW, Vanq is obviously better and easier to get in real world scenario, but let's say if you straight out compare them at the same level, just for that 2-3 shot duration to kill a normal sized enemy (which is majority of the MEA enemy lineup), without any doubt Vanq will always have higher sustained dps, but for me in practice it's easier to kill something with a 2 shot BW than having to aim for 3 headshots on a Vanq. There is also the question how many shots can you squeeze in during the 2 second tactical cloak duration, can you do 3, or more? If they are the same level then the black widow will be better because the vanquisher can't shoot four shots in that time frame.
| Level 1
| Level 10
| Level 1 with barrel X
| Level 10 with barrel X
| Black widow
| 2313 (3 shots)
| 2673 (3 shots)
| 2775.6 (3 shots)
| 3207.6 (2 shots to kill a raider)
| Vanquisher
| 2025 (3 shots)
| 2430 (3 shots)
| 2430 (3 shots)
| 2916 (3 shots)
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Raiders have about 2100 health on gold and the only way to 2 shot a raider with no equipment is with the black widow X and a barrel X. According to the stats the vanquisher has a 0.9 ROF and the vanquisher has 0.6 so both could only shoot 2 shots in the cloak duration
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LemurFromTheId
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Post by LemurFromTheId on Apr 16, 2017 22:32:46 GMT
Charts are nice, but this whole dps thing goes down in the toilet when half of the ar rounds are missing or because shotguns/talon etc. doesnt hit because enemy is not at point blank range. In the current state of the game only snipers can really deliver their expected dps. I think it goes without saying that whenever you're utilizing numerical data, you must understand what the numbers mean and what kind of limitations they establish for the information that can be drawn from them.
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Post by neightrix on Apr 16, 2017 22:44:14 GMT
-I was unaware of this before but weapon accuracy will actually increase with level. Yea, that's something to keep in mind. I don't know why they gimped low rank accuracy so much. It can make a weapon's initial unlock practically meaningless (Soned). Bravo EDIT: My favorite thing about this chart is how narrowly Sweeper escapes the bottom 5, "one of the best assault rifles" is worse than the Avenger.
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Post by twevowned on Apr 16, 2017 23:16:31 GMT
You have the Phalanx listed twice, one with its actual stats and one with the Predator stats.
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Post by cosmiccricket on Apr 17, 2017 0:31:38 GMT
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Post by nucleartech76 on Apr 17, 2017 0:47:54 GMT
I've been using the thokin a lot lately. It seems a lot better when you burst fire it. Less reticle bloom, more hits in the head, less ammo concerns. Just a friendly suggestion to anyone that likes the gun but struggles with the ammo issues and reticle bloom.
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Post by asherax on Apr 17, 2017 1:30:27 GMT
Been playing with the PAW today, and found it actually wasn't half as bad as some people said. Main reasons being, it has no recoil or bullet spread, which is pretty ideal for an AR at longer ranges, while it also seemed to apply ammo boosters relatively fast. So yes, the statistics don't tell the entire story.
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mograximus
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Post by mograximus on Apr 17, 2017 1:53:25 GMT
The biggest problem I see with the balance here is that weapons that are difficult to use/not very accurate/difficult to get are not some of the most damaging and sometimes the worst. The Vanquisher: Light, Easy to get (just a rare), Perfectly accurate, no recoil, fairly short reload, large clip size for a sniper, easy to headshot with and best damage in the game in all situations. The Valkyrie: Very light, hard to get (ultra rare), very innacurate with bad recoil, short reload, average clip size, hard to headshot because of the recoil and 2nd worst damage in the game. There's almost no logic to this and the balance just feels random It is incompetence of staggering proportions. This made me lol. Also sad. Needless to say, at this point, it is absolutely irrefutable whatever "testing" they engaged in was complete and utterly ineffective.
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treoir
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Post by treoir on Apr 17, 2017 2:02:06 GMT
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LwSrj4iRz8B_Box2UJLlTEEHj8KyrxjJJK9p_RUu7Xs said that Inferno X does 535 damage per shot. (But that thing keeps getting edited, and the damage has already changed, and idk what it will show next week. Still, for now, some of the reload times for some weapons are significantly different from here. Possibly because a lot of that spreadsheet was scraped data and so "supposed to be" rather than measured data and so "actually how things currently are, bugs and all")
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Post by hobocommand3r on Apr 17, 2017 2:04:12 GMT
Raiders have about 2100 health on gold and the only way to 2 shot a raider with no equipment is with the black widow X and a barrel X. \ Assuming you are ttalking about 2 shotting them with body shots; Obviously a special case but when I pop shield boost on my Angara insurgent and get the 20% damage boost for 8 seconds I can 2 shot raiders without equipment to the body with a vanq x as long as it's active. Surely some other classes with enough weapon damage passives like the avenger and maybe the human sentinel could do it as well? Unless the shield boost damage boost is multiplicative and the normal weapon passives are additive or something. I also think raiders have closer to 2200 health than 2100, 2 shots from a 1061 damage vanquisher before the shield boost leaves them with a bit of health.
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