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Post by R'Shara on Apr 19, 2017 15:37:40 GMT
Honestly, this is so true. Skyrim and Bethesda would be absolutely boring without the amazing mods that we can add in. Not to mention the ability to choose your race, and make a pretty decent character. But when I play Skyrim or Oblivion, I have absolutely different expectations than when I play Mass Effect. In Skyrim, I'm trying to build my character up, and get the best of everything and find all these hidden caves and dungeons. It generally has a weak main story, but the side quests are also pretty fun and meaningful, with great rewards. When I play Mass Effect, I expect character development, a great storyline, and smaller, but more varied and detailed areas and great personalization and sidequests. If I get Skyrim when I expect Mass Effect, it's a disappointment. Just like it'd be a disappointment if I got Mass Effect if I were expecting Skyrim. (Well, actually I probably wouldn't be disappointed there.) Skyrim side quests are the worst part of the game, especially guild quests. And you are not even aware of this fact. You accept shitty writing, story, characters, and quests in Skyrim. But from Mass Effect you want the same aspects to be perfect + open world? Double standards, cognitive dissonance. It's not a double standard, nor cognitive dissonance. Please don't label me with things that you assume. I freely admitted that I have DIFFERENT expectations for Skyrim and Mass Effect. Therefore, neither a double standard nor cognitive dissonance. Skyrim is promoting a whole different type of gameplay. Why should I expect the same things from it that I do from Mass Effect? It's like saying I expect real time actions from GalCiv or something. I liked most of the side quests from Skyrim, honestly, but the game isn't about meaningful detailed side quests. It's 60% exploration, 40% mods. I loved being able to earn my houses and mansions and getting enough $ to fully furnish them. Improving specific skills and massacreing evil dudes. I honestly don't even remember what the main storyline or quests were about. Something about dragons, I think? imgur.com/Hz5Im
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Post by bizantura on Apr 19, 2017 15:43:24 GMT
I can understand completely after Witcher 2 you would not want to play/ try Witcher 3. Witcher 1 - 2 - 3 are really not comparable games. DAI and MEA are, although they represent different worlds. The structure is familiar and basically the same. Witcher 3 is the most stand-alone with the most open world RPG feel to it. It is a very good game, I also never finished witcher 2. Witcher 1 is so out of date, playing it is tedious uncomfortable. I've seen enough videos and read enough reviews to realize that The Witcher 3 is not a game that I would like. I don't give a fuck about what it does "right" as an open world RPG because what it is "right" to you might be wrong to me. I don't give a fuck about what it's overzealous fanboys (hi dutch) who worship the damn thing and some seem to want to marry it and have it's babies. The Witcher series is not something I like and I'm not wasting my time and money on something that I don't like. It has nothing that interests me as a game or as a story. I will admit that it has pretty graphics but that doesn't wow me anymore. I don't like the lead character or the lame voice acting. I don't like it's concept, world, secondary characters, monsters, or anything else it has. In short if you're trying to sell me The Witcher 3 please stop because you're just wasting your time, it's not something I'm going to buy and/or play anytime soon (or maybe ever) so you and the other TW3 fans can stop trying to sell me on it. If I wanted to buy or play it I would have done so by now. Like some one else (I think it was Kabraxal and if I'm wrong I'm sorry) said earlier in this thread I'm also sick and tied of the "dark" and "brooding" media. If I want that I know or and got of plenty of movies and TV shows to depress me, so I don't need to be wasting money on video games that make me unhappy. I also get very mean and nasty in my posting and that is not a side of me nobody, myself included, should ever have to see. You are more than entitled to your opinion. I never suggested to you to try to play it, au contraire.
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Post by ShadowAngel on Apr 19, 2017 15:56:22 GMT
Honestly, this is so true. Skyrim and Bethesda would be absolutely boring without the amazing mods that we can add in. Not to mention the ability to choose your race, and make a pretty decent character. But when I play Skyrim or Oblivion, I have absolutely different expectations than when I play Mass Effect. In Skyrim, I'm trying to build my character up, and get the best of everything and find all these hidden caves and dungeons. It generally has a weak main story, but the side quests are also pretty fun and meaningful, with great rewards. When I play Mass Effect, I expect character development, a great storyline, and smaller, but more varied and detailed areas and great personalization and sidequests. If I get Skyrim when I expect Mass Effect, it's a disappointment. Just like it'd be a disappointment if I got Mass Effect if I were expecting Skyrim. (Well, actually I probably wouldn't be disappointed there.) Skyrim side quests are the worst part of the game, especially guild quests. And you are not even aware of this fact. You accept shitty writing, story, characters, and quests in Skyrim. But from Mass Effect you want the same aspects to be perfect + open world? Double standards, cognitive dissonance. The side quests are the best thing about that game for me. There is no "fact" to what you say. Skyrim is built completely different than a mass effect game, they have completely different priorities, fans have completely different expectations. I'm not expecting a great main line story to any Bethesda games but I do expect a huge open sandbox with various things to do that let the imagination go wild. With Mass effect I expect a great story and characters that I can get attached to and enjoy. expectations change from franchise to franchise. When it comes to fps games, I expect great fluid gameplay, with halo in specific I expect a decent story as it's one if the few that uses story to its advantage where as a CoD game relies off multiplayer and has to have addicting gameplay to keep people interested, they could care less about the awful campaigns as that's not why people play that specific game. there is no double standard when one says mass effect has awful story and character but then admits a skyrim lacks that. Why? Again, different focuses, different expectations, different ways to draw people in to play. If one goes in to skyrim expecting a great main line story they'll be disappointed as that's not what the devs focused on, it's the sandbox that lets you do whatever you want with a variety of things to do, including side quests that do have mystery to them.
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Post by Steelcan on Apr 19, 2017 16:13:06 GMT
its always quite amusing to read people's opinions on TW games as compared to BiOWare games, who haven't played TW games
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Post by Sailears on Apr 19, 2017 16:13:22 GMT
And yeah, first time I finished ME1 I stood up and applauded the screen, half in tears. It had an emotional and mental impact that few other stories in various entertainment media manage to achieve for me and it still remains one of the best game conclusions I have ever played. Wait, wait, wait... you gave a game a round of applause? Despite the fact that no-one at all who worked on it, marketed it, or sold it would hear? Do you also sit and clap at the end of a film at the cinema? I don't mean to troll but... wow. Other than that, I agree with the planetary stuff. My main problem was that they had a few big planets to explore and 3 of those were very arid looking. I think they needed to have smaller worlds, but more of them. Havarl size was nice, as was that destroyed planet. I'd rather they have 10 of those scale with more variety than 5 of a vast scale. Should I have remained emotionless? I don't see what the problem is with applauding at the end of a good game or movie even if none of the developers will be consciously aware of it. And yes I have clapped at the end of certain films I enjoyed and in the cinema on one or two occasions (when other audience members would also join in). I like to recognise and show the appreciation in a way that I am physically motivated to do, and this in turn forms a stronger memory of the event within my mind. Does that help explain it to you? I'm surprised you consider it to be weird given I can think of many stranger things people do in life.
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Post by Sailears on Apr 19, 2017 16:17:19 GMT
its always quite amusing to read people's opinions on TW games as compared to BiOWare games, who haven't played TW games Indeed. For the record I thoroughly enjoyed TW3 and think it's a fantastic game. Now I am thoroughly enjoying Andromeda and think it's also fantastic in it's own way. Once MEA has been fully patched up and has all the DLC it will get, I've no doubt it will be an all round excellent game.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Apr 19, 2017 16:18:33 GMT
You're still comparing quests with non-quests. No, you're the one splitting the hairs here in order to say one is a quest and one isn't. What makes a quest... if it's that you're told about it... then the you are told about the bandit camps and monster nests, etc. when you read various notice boards and then the ? mark appears on the map. Just because it's a sign rather than overhearing an NPC say something does not make it not a quest and the other a quest. Just because one is "go kill" and the other is "to fetch" doesn't make one a quest and the other a non-quest. They are essentially the same thing... and equally not story-connected, equally meaningless, and equally all filler... just to make the game longer and distract the player from the main story line. I would rather pay the same dollar for a good 50-hour linear game than a 200-hour piece of crap like TW3. At least I'm going to get to see all the 50-hours worth of content rather than skipping over 150-hours of filler. I gave it a second chance... it doesn't get 3. If ME:A is a bad as TW3, then ME:A will likely be the last Bioware game I buy. I don't like this attempts to combine open-world with story-driven games. I'll go back to playing campaign mode of regular action games and forfeit the RPG before I slog through 200 hours of trying to connect to fragments of little scattered stories out of any sort of logical sequence. You're still comparing quests with non-quests and camps,nests and caches can all be found without a notice board mentioning it. They don't impede progress unless you autistically need to see and do every single thing on the map. Also they make sense from a story perspective.
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Post by Furisco on Apr 19, 2017 16:18:59 GMT
Did i accidentally logged at neogaf ?
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Post by smilesja on Apr 19, 2017 16:23:09 GMT
its always quite amusing to read people's opinions on TW games as compared to BiOWare games, who haven't played TW games And it's always quite amusing to see Witcher super fans always invading forums talking about how the Witcher 3 is the greatest game of all time and how Bioware should die as a company.
Not that this directs at you, but it's funny to observe.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 16:28:37 GMT
Really getting ridiculous to see these childish reactions ( on both sides). You can start a topic about puppies on this forum and it can turn in an all out Witcher vs DAI/MEA warfare.
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Post by brandoftime on Apr 19, 2017 16:28:53 GMT
Overall, I've noticed a 'hate for Bioware' is a thing and it goes way back to the Hamburger Helper fiasco and the ME3 ending nightmare. Some people want to have heads roll (Literally) at Bioware and can't be reasoned with. I try to stay away from them, myself.
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Post by Furisco on Apr 19, 2017 16:29:55 GMT
its always quite amusing to read people's opinions on TW games as compared to BiOWare games, who haven't played TW games And it's always quite amusing to see Witcher super fans always invading forums talking about how the Witcher 3 is the greatest game of all time and how Bioware should die as a company.
Not that this directs at you, but it's funny to observe.
Both of those are pretty stupid tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 16:30:13 GMT
its always quite amusing to read people's opinions on TW games as compared to BiOWare games, who haven't played TW games You can certainly compare the known features of one game to another. As far as I know, it is accurate to say that you can only play as Geralt and you do not have characters joining him during his adventures in the Witcher.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Apr 19, 2017 16:34:21 GMT
Huh... and here I am finding Inquisition and Andromeda to have two of the better open worlds and oth are two of my favourite games of all time. But then the throwaway mention of TW3 exposed the author... that is an open world game that suffers exactly what he says Biowate's recent efforts suffer from. I would say The Witcher 2 also suffers from that, it through out so many quests right off the bat before I knew who was who and what the fuck was going on and introduced so many characters that I didn't know or like, combined with a shitty combat and inventory system, then people wonder why I refuse to play The Witcher 3? ME:A I get to know who the Ryder family, Liam, Cora, and Lexi are and I get to understand the combat and how the inventory system works with out a god awful and annoying (and personally I found it insulting) in-game "tutorial" that was fucking useless all before I get to the Nexus, and the Nexus leadership (Tann, Kesh, Addison, and Kandros) are more interesting and complex than Udina and the Citadel Council ever were. I knew what the stakes are who was who, and what was going on. I had and I'm still having a lot more fun playing ME:A and DA:I than I ever did with Fallout 3, Fallout 4, Oblivion, Skyrim, and The Witcher 2 (I don't or care if considered "open world" or not) with or without the player made mods combined. Lol what? Witcher 2 barely had quests that they actually patched in some more because the fans wanted it. Witcher 2 was very linear and story driven compared to the other games.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Apr 19, 2017 16:38:11 GMT
I can understand completely after Witcher 2 you would not want to play/ try Witcher 3. Witcher 1 - 2 - 3 are really not comparable games. DAI and MEA are, although they represent different worlds. The structure is familiar and basically the same. Witcher 3 is the most stand-alone with the most open world RPG feel to it. It is a very good game, I also never finished witcher 2. Witcher 1 is so out of date, playing it is tedious uncomfortable. I've seen enough videos and read enough reviews to realize that The Witcher 3 is not a game that I would like. I don't give a fuck about what it does "right" as an open world RPG because what it is "right" to you might be wrong to me. I don't give a fuck about what it's overzealous fanboys (hi dutch) who worship the damn thing and some seem to want to marry it and have it's babies. The Witcher series is not something I like and I'm not wasting my time and money on something that I don't like. It has nothing that interests me as a game or as a story. I will admit that it has pretty graphics but that doesn't wow me anymore. I don't like the lead character or the lame voice acting. I don't like it's concept, world, secondary characters, monsters, or anything else it has. In short if you're trying to sell me The Witcher 3 please stop because you're just wasting your time, it's not something I'm going to buy and/or play anytime soon (or maybe ever) so you and the other TW3 fans can stop trying to sell me on it. If I wanted to buy or play it I would have done so by now. Like some one else (I think it was Kabraxal and if I'm wrong I'm sorry) said earlier in this thread I'm also sick and tied of the "dark" and "brooding" media. If I want that I know or and got of plenty of movies and TV shows to depress me, so I don't need to be wasting money on video games that make me unhappy. I also get very mean and nasty in my posting and that is not a side of me nobody, myself included, should ever have to see. No ones selling you crap crybaby. Witcher 3 is a better "game" than bioware' recent titles. People don't like LGBT parades because they're degenerate, I'm sure most here disagree with that also. Your opinion means nothing.
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Post by Furisco on Apr 19, 2017 16:41:14 GMT
H E R E W E G O
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Post by yeegrek on Apr 19, 2017 16:55:07 GMT
Good to see a reasonable article with helpful suggestions. I won't argue the game is flawless, but I still had a lot of fun with it, and the silly internet dogpiling is just going to deter game developers from taking chances or doing anything that deviates from a successful formula. Interesting bit on the old paragon/renegade option versus MEA's conversations. I felt the same way about the All The Little Things quest. It didn't feel like there was a moral option there. You could only approve. And since there was behaviour that was at least criticize-able in terms of the Dr.'s actions (having a baby for no other reason than wanting one when thousands of others had sacrificed having one until colonies could be established), it felt empty. Go here, scan. Go there, scan, go down to the planet, kill Kett, Go back to Tempest, vidcon. The end. In the same way the article suggests, had it been, "Approve and get blowback from the Nexus, or disapprove and lose Dr. Kennedy's research", there could have been a real moral dilemma to ponder before making a decision. And it would have avoided the original trilogy's saint vs. Satan bichromatic morality.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 19, 2017 17:11:26 GMT
I doubt the veracity of the author's claims that Dragon Age players thought the Winter Palace was among the best parts of the game. I've seen a lot of people complain about it. I personally liked it, but I wouldn't say it was my "favourite" part of the game.
Still, I do think there's a good point to be made here. I can't speak to MEA, but I think the move to semi-open-world hasn't been overly beneficial for Dragon Age.
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Post by Ieldra on Apr 19, 2017 17:12:00 GMT
With regard to open-world-like games and where Bioware stands in regard to them, here's my take on it:
All open-world-like games must overcome the same kind of problem: how to fill their worlds with interesting content, or how to make up for the fact that you don't and still want an enjoyable game. There are several key ingredients that can make a contribution. Not every one of them is of equal importance, and players value them differently, so there isn't a definitive answer for the question of making a game that works, but here is my list of the most important aspects:
1. Creativity in storytelling.
Stories aren't just sequences of events. They engage me most, emotionally and intellectually, if they're not completely predictable and gain a life of their own as you experience them in a game. Now, consider that every sidequest should be like a little story in itself, and ask yourself how many of MEA's and DAI's sidequests where satisfying in that way? If your answer is anything better than "not many" then I say your standards are lacking. In DAI, some of the companion missions were well-crafted, but almost all of those in MEA were full of tired old tropes used in fairly straightforward ways and without any twists to make them interesting. MEA's main plot is more interesting, but that's not enough to carry an open-world-like game.
I think Bioware has lost a lot of creative drive over the years and become increasingly formulaic. Their first idea for MEA's main plot involved......some ancient evil, if you can believe that. Then we have yet another antagonist who wants to turn us into X, yet another species of "aliens" who are nothing more than a different human culture in essence, yet another spaceship that looks like an airplane, sets of sidequest whose solutions lack anything that would make them engaging, etc. etc. I've been wondering if they even write new code for enemy AI, so much everything feels the same. The Remnant mystery is nice - *really* nice, and the saving grace of MEA down to a very satisfying ending - but yet again, not enough to carry a game of this kind alone. The last game where I felt that Bioware gave the whole world and its details their creative attention was DAO. And the most recent game where I felt another developer did that was TW3.
Another symptom of this lack of creativity is writing that's at best uninspired and workmanlike, and all too often cheesy, juvenile or campy. ME writing was never good, but in ME2 and ME3 the mostly superb voice acting made up for it. In MEA, not so much.
2. Dynamism and interactivity
Open-world-like games are games aimed at making just being in the world enjoyable. In order to do that, their worlds must be lifelike. People move around and do stuff, talk to each other etc.., and ideally you can interact with pretty much everything. TES games used to be good at that - in Oblivion you could do things like setting a table for a nice romantic dinner, all by yourself, because all the objects in the game world were interactive and could be moved and placed. Modders took great advantage of that and created locations of unsurpassed beauty. Meanwhile, Bioware games have always been incredibly static and very much less interactive. When they didn't make open-world-like games that was not so much of a disadvantage, but it is a problem when for instance, in DAI's Redcliffe people don't move and you can't move anything around. In MEA, people do talk, for instance on the Nexus, but interactivity is extremely limited and quite often, you don't even see anything happen if you interact with an object. You don't even see containers opening. How boringly static is that?
While TES: Oblivion is perhaps the most interactive game I know, TW3 has come to be the king of dynamism. Don't believe me? Just visit its cities and tell me they aren't the most alive you've ever seen in a game. Bioware? Novigrad alone has probably more non-hostile dynamic AIs than MEA as a whole, and if you can interact with a character who isn't part of a quest you can already consider it exceptional. Low, low standards that desperately need to improve if they want to make another game of this kind and make it a success.
3. Variety in content
This ties into creativity. A large world can all too easily become boring, so you need variety in content. Variety in quest resolutions (see above about creativity in storytelling) is what works best, and Bioware has not been good at that for a long time. DAI made up for that by variety in landscapes and landscapes there were truly impressive, and its variety of enemies was, while not impressive, enough to make you want to play on. What do we have in MEA? 80% kett, roekaar and exiles who all use a human template for movement and use basically the same combat AI, and Remnant whose ground-bound units also use the same combat AI and move like humans. It's the epitime of boring - MEA is supposed to be a game about exploration but if I find nothing but kett camp #1502 and Heleus loot chest #2411 why should I even bother? Also, naturally there is a limit to landscaping if you must design marginal worlds, but surely the worlds could've been made a little more interesting in MEA. Havarl is nice and so is Habitat-7, but that's about it. The only saving grace of the others is that you can drive around in the Nomad more easily.
The problems in these areas contribute to the fact that when I play MEA, at any time after the first encounter with the angara I basically do everything just in order to get to the next main story event and be as powerful as possible when I get there. Counting by the time I spend for it, about 70% of everything I do between that point and the salarian ark - which I delay as much as possible - is not particularly engaging at best and anything between a tedious chore or a meaningless time sink at worst. What comes after - everything that has to do with Meridian - is very satisfying, but getting there, the whole middle part of the game, is not.
In general, creativity and variety in storytelling has become a rare virtue in crpgs, not just for Bioware. I think here's the most potential for improvement, though, and hiring better writers and allocating more resources to realizing their ideas in-game, especially outside the main plot, will have the most effect. That doesn't just apply to open-world-like games. Imagine a game with a premise and story like DA2's, created with the same attention to making the world come alive, making the world plausible, world detail, consistency and quality of content as TW3. Imagine the dialogue and lore of a sequel to MEA written by an experienced SF writer with a dedication to creating consitent worlds with fantastic elements. I don't think actual writing is a particularly expensive aspect of an rpg (as opposed to scene production and VA), it makes no sense to be so utterly cheap in this as Bioware appears to be.
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Post by friffy on Apr 19, 2017 17:19:32 GMT
No ones selling you crap crybaby. Witcher 3 is a better "game" than bioware' recent titles. People don't like LGBT parades because they're degenerate, I'm sure most here disagree with that also. Your opinion means nothing. So if we had a game that would fullfill everything a great game like witcher has, great fetch quest that adds to the story, a dark and grim main prodagonist within a dark and meaningful storyline - but with a LGBT parade it still would be ok for you? Or do I have to assume that even with all of this witcher 3 would still be the far better game because it has no such parade? Or have I misunderstood it? And just in case - this is not an opinion, it's a question.
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Post by Steelcan on Apr 19, 2017 17:21:46 GMT
its always quite amusing to read people's opinions on TW games as compared to BiOWare games, who haven't played TW games You can certainly compare the known features of one game to another. As far as I know, it is accurate to say that you can only play as Geralt and you do not have characters joining him during his adventures in the Witcher. Sure, if you ignore the parts where you play as Ciri or when you have Triss, Yennefer, Hjalmar, Lambert, Eskel, Vesimir, Dandelion, or any number of more minor characters along
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Post by lexxxich on Apr 19, 2017 17:24:50 GMT
If Bioware wants to make an open-world game they'd have to first make an open-world and then set the game in it. Can't call DAI or MEA an open-world game if 90% of critical plot happens in walled-off instances and is absolutely not affected by anything player does outside of them. Except for the very final mission, yes. Having all those people go: "We've got your back Ryder, go do your remnant thing!", - was moderately nice.
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Post by Furisco on Apr 19, 2017 17:28:21 GMT
On one side we got the "men centered game" and the other side we got the "SJW game". The best of both worlds i would say.
You all should stop producing such high amounts of bullshit and enjoy more things.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 19, 2017 17:29:35 GMT
Count me as one of those people who has no interest in Dragon Age becoming like The Witcher. I'd rather peel off my own eyelids than be stuck playing as that snarly albino with throat cancer.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 17:47:28 GMT
I disagree. I love open worlds. Many of these complaints (and wonky/meaningless dialogue too) could be aimed at Skyrim as well, and that's one of my favourite games of all time. Mind, I am disappointed by meaningless fetch quests too (go there, press E, then go there, press E, then there, use your scanner, then press E) ...but I still like the freedom. I think in many ways it does what ME1 once aspired to do, Hudson's first concept for "project SFX" described open sci-fi exploration. Playing ME2 now feels almost claustrophobic to me.
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