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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 21:00:19 GMT
CD Projekt Red also did a fantastic job of making it's game world feel like a living, breathing place. Novigrad felt like a real city, unlike the Nexus or Val Royeux. CD Projekt Red did a better job as well of making the things that went on in the hub more immersive than their equivalent in Bioware's hubs. A great example of that is the difference between Skyhold's bard and Priscilla, a bard in Novigrad: Nice song, but that whole cutscene is mired in that unpleasant Witcher aesthetic that makes me feel grimy just looking at it. And do you seriously have to sit there and watch that scene every time you want to hear the bard? Blech. People keep showing me Witcher videos and I continue to be unimpressed. Except for the monsters; they do have great-looking monsters. The bard in the Witcher 3 is part of a quest. That was the difference between how Dragon Age and The Witcher 3 were designed. The bard in DA:I is mostly useless background decoration, whereas in the Witcher 3 Geralt is drawn into the life of the city through quests. There's another quest chain where he also takes part in a play: In comparison Val Royeux was nothing more than a marketplace, with no interesting persons or events of note, and other than the companions there was not much of interest going on in Skyhold either. One doesn't have to be a fan of The Witcher series to recognize that DA and ME games would be improved by their hubs being brought to life in similar ways.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Apr 19, 2017 21:06:22 GMT
Well, the animation of Leliana's song was terrible, but The Dawn Will Come was great. Yeah that is a better comparison. That Priscilla performance is just one cut scene, she doesn't perform different songs there every time you go or anything it's just one event in the game so it's not fair to say she is better than the Skyhold bard, she's a performer sure but her purpose in the game is not to just be in a tavern and sing songs. Tho personally I thought the dawn will come scene was a bit out of nowhere and the transition to Skyhold in general didn't work for me, it seemed to be style over substance but it was still a very well made set of cut scenes.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 19, 2017 21:08:52 GMT
Nice song, but that whole cutscene is mired in that unpleasant Witcher aesthetic that makes me feel grimy just looking at it. And do you seriously have to sit there and watch that scene every time you want to hear the bard? Blech. People keep showing me Witcher videos and I continue to be unimpressed. Except for the monsters; they do have great-looking monsters. The bard in the Witcher 3 is part of a quest. That was the difference between how Dragon Age and The Witcher 3 were designed. The bard in DA:I is mostly useless background decoration, whereas in the Witcher 3 Geralt is drawn into the life of the city through quests. There's another quest chain where he also takes part in a play: In comparison Val Royeux was nothing more than a marketplace, with no interesting persons or events of note, and other than the companions there was not much of interest going on in Skyhold either. One doesn't have to be a fan of The Witcher series to recognize that DA and ME games would be improved by their hubs being brought to life in similar ways. Ugh, I stomached about a minute of that. Why are there women on stage? For a series that values "historical accuracy," it sure puts those conceits aside when convenient.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 19, 2017 21:13:32 GMT
Women were, at least in the Elizabethan theatre tradition, not allowed on stage until the mid-1600s. That was the whole friggin' plot of Shakespeare in Love.
I thought the big reason why the Witcher can't have non-whites is because "historical accuracy, man." What kind of pseudo-medieval bullshit is this?
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Post by Furisco on Apr 19, 2017 21:15:13 GMT
Time to leave the thread.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 21:17:06 GMT
The bard in the Witcher 3 is part of a quest. That was the difference between how Dragon Age and The Witcher 3 were designed. The bard in DA:I is mostly useless background decoration, whereas in the Witcher 3 Geralt is drawn into the life of the city through quests. There's another quest chain where he also takes part in a play: In comparison Val Royeux was nothing more than a marketplace, with no interesting persons or events of note, and other than the companions there was not much of interest going on in Skyhold either. One doesn't have to be a fan of The Witcher series to recognize that DA and ME games would be improved by their hubs being brought to life in similar ways. Why are there women on stage? For a series that values "historical accuracy," it sure puts those conceits aside when convenient. What historical accuracy? The Witcher 3 isn't set on Earth. Besides even in Earth's history women haven't always been barred from the stage. The ancient Romans had female actors, for instance. Women started to appear on stage again in Europe during the 1600s, a period the Witcher also draws some inspiration from. You can be a fan of Bioware's games you know, without having a kneejerk negative reaction anytime the Witcher is mentioned.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Apr 19, 2017 21:17:18 GMT
Nice song, but that whole cutscene is mired in that unpleasant Witcher aesthetic that makes me feel grimy just looking at it. And do you seriously have to sit there and watch that scene every time you want to hear the bard? Blech. People keep showing me Witcher videos and I continue to be unimpressed. Except for the monsters; they do have great-looking monsters. The bard in the Witcher 3 is part of a quest. That was the difference between how Dragon Age and The Witcher 3 were designed. The bard in DA:I is mostly useless background decoration, whereas in the Witcher 3 Geralt is drawn into the life of the city through quests. There's another quest chain where he also takes part in a play: but you are comparing main story points to a background character who is mostly just there to bring life to a tavern. The reason why Maryden isn't part of the main plot is because she isn't a major character, she is a side character. Priscilla is not a bard who spends all her time in a tavern singing songs, she is part of the main plot and has her own character arc and she only performs one song. It's apples and oranges, there is nothing wrong with having small characters who are just there to add flavor.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 21:20:24 GMT
The bard in the Witcher 3 is part of a quest. That was the difference between how Dragon Age and The Witcher 3 were designed. The bard in DA:I is mostly useless background decoration, whereas in the Witcher 3 Geralt is drawn into the life of the city through quests. There's another quest chain where he also takes part in a play: but you are comparing main story points to a background character who is mostly just there to bring life to a tavern. The reason why Maryden isn't part of the main plot is because she isn't a major character, she is a side character. Priscilla is not a bard who spends all her time in a tavern singing songs, she is part of the main plot and has her own character arc and she only performs one song. It's apples and oranges, there is nothing wrong with having small characters who are just there to add flavor. That was my point. CD Projekt Red brought the hubs to life through quests that were woven into the city's life. Bioware did not have similar content with Skyhold, Val Royeux, or the Nexus, and consequently all three locations were largely dull and lifeless in comparison.
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Post by hector535 on Apr 19, 2017 21:22:07 GMT
While I agree BioWare's handling of incorporating 'open world' elements in their game hasn't fulfilled the promise it could have (especially MEA), I disagree that they should go back to linear-style games. IMO, there is a lot potential there that is simply... untapped. It's not the open regions that are a problem, it's what you do in them. Through the story, I'd love to have more opportunities to make a real, tangible impact on the region you're in (eg. Crestwood quest). Being able to build, destroy, or change the region over time and seasons. Opening up new avenues to explore through your actions, but always with an eye on the story surrounding the reasons why you're doing these things, and how those actions impact the overall narrative. The Frostbite engine, especially if they decide to dive into photogrammetry, is just too good to waste on just linear-style gaming. I love exploration, so long as it's meaningful and not just a series of fetch quests and shallow side missions. I want to believe BioWare can find that balance. I agree, honestly when I tried to play Mass Effect 2 I only wanted to see the story and characters, I didn't have any interest in the combat or exploration or doing side quests. It was too boring and I didn't even finished it because I couldn't. At the time I played it I had fun but I can't go back to it.
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Post by mofojokers on Apr 19, 2017 21:23:04 GMT
Nice song, but that whole cutscene is mired in that unpleasant Witcher aesthetic that makes me feel grimy just looking at it. And do you seriously have to sit there and watch that scene every time you want to hear the bard? Blech. People keep showing me Witcher videos and I continue to be unimpressed. Except for the monsters; they do have great-looking monsters. The bard in the Witcher 3 is part of a quest. That was the difference between how Dragon Age and The Witcher 3 were designed. The bard in DA:I is mostly useless background decoration, whereas in the Witcher 3 Geralt is drawn into the life of the city through quests. There's another quest chain where he also takes part in a play: In comparison Val Royeux was nothing more than a marketplace, with no interesting persons or events of note, and other than the companions there was not much of interest going on in Skyhold either. One doesn't have to be a fan of The Witcher series to recognize that DA and ME games would be improved by their hubs being brought to life in similar ways. You won't be able to get them to see from this point of view. The reason why that song and cutscene went above and beyond. It was the story of a witch who used a wish to make a witcher fall in love with her. She then couldn't be sure if it was true love or just the spell at work. As we know this story is more than just legend it is after all Geralts tale. When you first hear it as a fan it grips you emotionally as it does Geralt. It was the same thing with the moment you catch up to Ciri. It was heart breaking and you felt what Geralt felt. Things and people felt alive and this lacks alot in Bioware games. This is the point he is trying to get across. It would be in their interest to look at how and why these things work. Instead of quantity look at the quality and how to forge these bonds of player and character.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 19, 2017 21:28:10 GMT
Why are there women on stage? For a series that values "historical accuracy," it sure puts those conceits aside when convenient. What historical accuracy? The Witcher 3 isn't set on Earth. Isn't "it's based on Slavic mythology GODDAMNIT" the reason why the Witcher CAN'T have black people? Hey look, I found an article addressing this very subject. www.polygon.com/2015/6/3/8719389/colorblind-on-witcher-3-rust-and-gamings-race-problem
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Apr 19, 2017 21:36:21 GMT
but you are comparing main story points to a background character who is mostly just there to bring life to a tavern. The reason why Maryden isn't part of the main plot is because she isn't a major character, she is a side character. Priscilla is not a bard who spends all her time in a tavern singing songs, she is part of the main plot and has her own character arc and she only performs one song. It's apples and oranges, there is nothing wrong with having small characters who are just there to add flavor. That was my point. CD Projekt Red brought the hubs to life through quests that were woven into the city's life. Bioware did not have similar content with Skyhold, Val Royeux, or the Nexus, and consequently all three locations were largely dull and lifeless in comparison. Sure I agree with that, this is basically just the fact that the Witcher 3 used it's main hubs for the plot and Inquition did not. The story was mostly told in story specific areas and I agree that was crap and made the world feel even more useless and empty. I just don't see the issue with side characters like Maryden, that character worked pretty well. She sang songs about the characters and the world, this made the tavern in Skyhold a lot more interesting. It's a shame the Witcher did not have a bard like this in one of the taverns, or more performances from Priscilla and Dandelion. I actually disagree with Skyhold, there is all kinds of flavor content there some of it tied into the main plot some of it not but Bioware decided to use Val Royaux for very little so there isn't much there. An example of The Witcher 3 doing the same thing would be Vizima, only a small section of the plot happens there so it's just a small area with not much in it. So sure over all the Witcher 3 used it's world A LOT better but I still think your specific examples are bad.
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Post by Furisco on Apr 19, 2017 21:39:20 GMT
Glad to see that you linked this article. Now i can just ignore everything that you say without being afraid of missing something interesting.
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Post by Gileadan on Apr 19, 2017 21:44:12 GMT
I swear, reading some of the posts on the last two pages gave me an INT debuff.
Hopefully it's only tempo... temp... goes away.
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Post by thedarkprince on Apr 19, 2017 21:46:20 GMT
Yes the open world does little to flesh out either series. I was over 60 hou4s into Andromeda, then thought to myself "what we're some good side quests so far?"
I honestly drew a blank. Both games simply had way too much filler just to pad the game. If Andromeda and Inquisition were both 35-40 hours and mostly main question plot, I thought they would have both flowed better. Many people have complained about the pacing in Andromeda, and that it feels off. Well when you do a main quest then decided to do 4 or so hours of side quests that add nothing to the game....it tends to throw off the pacing and tightness of the story telling.
I honestly hope that both Dragon Age and Mass Effect drop the open world crap. You can still have large environments to explore, just not so massive that they are filled with nothing of interest.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Apr 19, 2017 21:48:30 GMT
All people were saying was Poland is like almost entirely white people, like idk possibly less than 1 percent of people in Poland are not white and the Witcher 3 is based mostly on polish mythology so yes "slavic mythology"...so it reflects their culture and their people, why shouldn't it? I don't think people were saying there can't be non white people in the game, There are some in the hearts of stone dlc but there are not very many "people of colour" in the lands that the game is set in based on the lore from the books. Sure there are a few and they could have been in the main game but they weren't and that is a problem because why? Europe is not America, a lot of the oppression that went on in Poland was not based on skin colour, this is Americans expecting other countries to change their media to reflect America and address American issues.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 21:50:22 GMT
Andromeda has a movie night on the Tempest with the whole team participating in the spectacle, so it uses its hub in a similar way that the above quoted W3 scene? Nexus also has surprising encounters, like when you wander into the cultural centre and talk to the Angaran delegates... no? Not the same by some reason?l
Also my understanding was that songs in Inquisition related to companions, and iirc the bard also had a quest associated with her there as well. And a lot of comp-related scenes took place in Skyhold like Cassandra-Varrick quarrels
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Post by Furisco on Apr 19, 2017 21:51:35 GMT
All people were saying was Poland is like almost entirely white people, like idk possibly less than 1 percent of people in Poland are not white and the Witcher 3 is based mostly on polish mythology so yes "slavic mythology"...so it reflects their culture and their people, why shouldn't it? I don't think people were saying there can't be non white people in the game, There are some in the hearts of stone dlc but there are not very many "people of colour" in the lands that the game is set in based on the lore from the books. Sure there are a few and they could have been in the main game but they weren't and that is a problem because why? Europe is not America, a lot of the oppression that went on in Poland was not based on skin colour, this is Americans expecting other countries to change their media to reflect America and address American issues. Shut up bigot. jk
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Post by Kappa Neko on Apr 19, 2017 22:03:23 GMT
its always quite amusing to read people's opinions on TW games as compared to BiOWare games, who haven't played TW games And it's always quite amusing to see Witcher super fans always invading forums talking about how the Witcher 3 is the greatest game of all time and how Bioware should die as a company.
Not that this directs at you, but it's funny to observe.
That's very dramatic... Who's saying Bioware should die? People are disappointed with the game and want Bioware to make a better effort next time. We Witcher fans aren't "invading" your safe space. We're all here because we like(d) Bioware games and other RPGs. I was with the original BSN since 2010. If you feel so threatened by very legitimate comparisons, think about why that might be. Witcher 3 set the bar for future open world games. It's just like that for many people who actually played it. MEA is not the only game which will be compared to it in the next five years. Just ignore us if it upsets you so much.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 19, 2017 22:06:16 GMT
Guys, let's not get this threat locked, mmkay?
Open World has its good points. It can also have downsides. Linear has its good points. It also has downsides.
Bioware needs to find a balance between their semi-open-world butthair and excessively linear dungeons.
We know they can do this, because they have done it before (Jade Empire, parts of DA:I).
ME:A to me, kind of managed to pull the worst of both worlds--large open spaces with nothing interesting to do other than head-scratchinger fetch quests, combined with a few small linear dungeons (I really liked Liam's mission and the asari ark, but the turian ark was ridiculous).
Add in a butt-ton of auto-dialogue, and that Character Creator, and the unskippable cutscenes, plus the numerous game-breaking bugs, and well, this is why people are underwhelmed.
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Post by Ocelot on Apr 19, 2017 22:23:31 GMT
Oh for fucks sake. There are black/middle eastern folk in the witcher. Its just that all live in the east. They rarely travel to the northen kingdoms. However Geralt meet some in the books and a few in The witcher 3. CD Projekt is simply respecting its lore and source material. Oh and to make you happier, those black/eastern folk are highly respected in the world of the witcher.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Apr 19, 2017 22:29:08 GMT
The witcher 3 has the benefit of having one set character, there is no gender choice there aren't as many dialogue choices either really so that is going to result in less restraints on the story. Then again the original Mass Effect trilogy is loved, they have their issues and a lot of that is to do with choices and lack of dialogue options but the games (other than ME3's ending) still turned out really good.
This doesn't excuse everything though. DA:I and ME:A have so many half baked ideas, the Witcher 3 has very few it has it's issues but it's obvious CDPR tried their best to make the best game they possibly could.
I do think there are just some things Bioware and CDPR do differently though and that this shouldn't change. I did end up liking Geralt eventually, quite a bit in fact but he is also the reason I didn't ever play a Witcher game until last year. He's not exactly portrayed as the amazing character he really is, you really have to get to know him to see that. I like to create my own character in an RPG, i'm only going to play as a set character if they are a really good character and Geralt is but it takes time with him to realise that. I am just lucky friends talked me into picking up the Witcher 3 and now I am starting to play the first two games.
Bioware games have always given far more roleplaying options though and the more of that they lose the less I like their games. So i don't want Bioware games to become exactly like the witcher but they can still learn a lot from CDPR.
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Post by thats1evildude on Apr 19, 2017 22:32:53 GMT
Oh and to make you happier, those black/eastern folk are highly respected in the world of the witcher. Not respected enough to be included in any of the game footage I've ever watched, apparently. But y'know, I could give two shits about The Witcher or the fact that the setting is whiter than a salt mine at a cracker factory. My whole point was, "No, I really don't like the Witcher, and would rather prefer not to make Dragon Age a Witcher clone." At which point, the rabid fanboys started coming out of the woodwork to exclaim, "Well, clearly you haven't seen enough of the game to appreciate the richness of the setting! Gather 'round, and let us sing you a song of the Bloody Baron and our convoluted crafting system!" I've seen what The Witcher has to offer. Accept that not everyone regards it as the pinnacle of RPGs.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 19, 2017 22:35:02 GMT
Well I'm not a Witcher fan either. From what I've seen, it's just not my cup of tea (sorry, I just can't play as an old white guy). But I usually just *don't* mention it or compare anything to it, and people leave me alone
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Post by solomace on Apr 19, 2017 22:37:17 GMT
Oh and to make you happier, those black/eastern folk are highly respected in the world of the witcher. Not respected enough to be included in any of the game footage I've ever watched, apparently. "our convoluted crafting system!"First part I just rolled my eyes. Isn't this what people say is the problem with Bioware? Don't they have a tick list of what types of diversity HAVE to be in their games? The second part makes me think you've not even played MEA for you to say such a thing about the very easy crafting system in TW3. Getting the parts to craft may not be so easy, however some people like myself like the challenge.
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