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Post by colfoley on Apr 21, 2017 7:59:22 GMT
Expand the size of their worlds? MEA cut down on the number of maps in Inquisition by half and made four of them relevant to the plot whereas in Inquisition it was only three.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 21, 2017 8:04:13 GMT
It is being done slowly. Some mistakes will be made along the way, but they're headed in the right direction. In building worlds and stories, an environment that more fully encompasses them is essential. Lol. And you have the temerity to call someone else a dimwit.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 21, 2017 8:21:58 GMT
No one is saying Bioware shouldn't explore new ways to expand their games. We're saying, it's more worthwhile to expand their worlds slowly, and have them filled with meaningful or interesting content, rather than plop down giant buggy worlds filled with fetch quests, asari clones, and bad animations. That's what they are doing
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Post by colfoley on Apr 21, 2017 8:27:16 GMT
And as someone who isan admitted an unashamed BioWare fanboy, I at least can admit that they do have their flaws.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 21, 2017 8:31:51 GMT
Every game has its flaws and this has been the case for over two decades... right now I'm playing Baldur's Gate 2 with bugs that were never fixed that had to be addressed by fans (same with Skyrim). The hyperbolic enthusiasm with which many forumites go after each new game's flaws is always amusing.
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Post by brandoftime on Apr 21, 2017 14:03:06 GMT
Expand the size of their worlds? MEA cut down on the number of maps in Inquisition by half and made four of them relevant to the plot whereas in Inquisition it was only three. Yeah, kinda noticed that. I would have like a few more worlds, Havarl sized in there just to mix it up a bit. Especially when what we have is largely 40 percent deserts, 2 out of 5 worlds, even excluding Ice world Hoth - I mean Voeld. This was good for the most part, but after 90 plus hours gets samey and the areas do not change at all, making it more bland. I would have loved the variety in Inquisition, and in fact one of the devs was interviewed last year, (saw interview on you tube) giving the impression that there was about 10 to 12 explorable worlds, some of which would be optional. In my experience, that is just not true - unless 4 or 5 are added in with DLC. In my experience the asteroid world was the only optional one, even Aya has to be visited at least one time in main story arc. So yeah, a bit disappointed on that, but have enjoyed the overall experience. There's just a lack of balance somewhere . . . Edit: found the article www.gameinformer.com/themes/blogs/generic/post.aspx?WeblogApp=features&y=2016&m=11&d=23&WeblogPostName=six-fun-activities-to-pursue-in-mass-effect-andromeda&GroupKeys=tl;dr "Other planets are smaller and won’t require getting the Nomad packed up. Planets house a bevy of different discoveries, as you’ll find colonies, hidden dungeons, minerals, and other secrets to unlock on your journey. “This is the biggest we’ve ever gone, in terms of the number of pieces of content,” Gamble says. “Although we have a lot of different areas to go to, we want to make it so whenever you go to those areas, you remember them.” Some planets are on the critical path; others are completely optional. BioWare is providing a lot to do when you’re out exploring, but wants to keep a fair amount optional so the player can choose how much they want to invest in the experience. "
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 21, 2017 14:27:08 GMT
I'm not really clear on how that would work. What would the design outline look like? I'm not certain myself. I count myself lucky that I'm not a AAA developer, because it's certainly no cakewalk. However, the basic premise would be "smaller and less." As for concrete details, I can try to provide some examples: Inquisition is the most obvious to me. As I said, there's a great game in there that you can easily find if you throw out the peripheral content. I'm not sure if it would map 1:1 resource-wise, but if BioWare scrapped all the open world stuff and replaced it with Trespasser and The Descent (and Frostback Basin if there's any time/money left), you'd have a shorter, but far more effective game. Hell, you could potentially keep the DLC as DLC, but use the open world resources to spruce up Val Royeaux and Skyhold. Make the environments a bit more lively and give us a few more political/religious adventures, and Inquisition could have really drove home the leadership and faith themes it struggled to fully realize. As for Mass Effect, it's a bit more complicated, but I'd want to use Mass Effect 2 as a base. Presumably, BioWare have more resources at their disposal than they did at the time of ME2's development, so I'm imagining basically just that game but bigger and potentially denser. I'd love a Mass Effect 2 where each hub, Illium, Omega, Tuchanka, and the Citadel, had their own overarching political plots that spilled into, but wasn't exclusively comprised of, the recruitment and loyalty missions. That way we get a few major plots supported by vignettes from out companions. There's no wasting time, writing, and VO effort on tons of new supporting characters; it all stems from our companions. That doesn't exactly work for Andromeda setting-wise, but that's assuming we want to keep Andromeda's story as is. I'd have to think longer about any specific structure for that kind of story, but as an immediate improvement, I think BioWare could scrap a few of the less interesting planets and divert that energy to a stronger opening, and again, deeper political threads. I know that's vague, but I'm short on time right now, and I'd want to really think about how I'd restructure Andromeda's story and structure to better fit themselves. Now, when I say "expand slowly outwards," I'm considering that as a natural process of technical evolution. Presumably, technology,and pipeline solutions will steadily improve over time, so content generation should become easier further into a franchise. So if we start at a minimum viable Mass Effect, BioWare should be able progressively add more content to their sequels over time, be it in sheer volume, mechanical depth, or narrative branching. I imagine that this never really happened in the trilogy because BioWare were still figuring out their core combat mechanics with each entry and wrestling with an aging Unreal Engine 3. But honestly, I don't really care about advancement at this point. I think BioWare just need to get back the quality they used to have. In an industry saturated by open worlds, I think it would only behoove BioWare to make a small game (for a AAA RPG developer) that focused on nailing the writing, setting, and presentation, and hitting home at least one unique mechanic. I think that's all a game needs. No one is making another space opera RPG, especially not at a AAA production value. BioWare could honestly just survive with just an original story, assuming they can make it as original and exciting as The Witcher's, but ideally they could corner the market with some quality tactical shooting action. Thing is, I don't necessarily agree it's from that approach with Andromeda. Dragon Age sure, the emphasis on the big world maps and the like, and they made size comparisons, but Andromeda feels a lot more compact comparatively. The Nomad helps it for sure, but they also thought out a bunch of quests this time around and the amount of worlds you do land on is cut in half compared to Inquisition. It seems like they cut a lot of fat already to tighten up the narrative, especially considering the narrative mid-late game is quite solid. I also suspect they have their core mechanics at this point as well. They took a lot of the elements that worked between 2-3, re-incorporated them and added mobility. That part was actually solid. Just tweaking it slightly will be needed for the next game. Same with Frostbite 3, although I have a feeling they need a LOT more work on their skills with the engine, it's been very hit and miss as of late. There is enough political intrigue to keep going through the game, but the problem is the narrative was designed for the singular mission of "find us a home" and subsequently introduced everything else that is going to be a major point of contention. It would change the fundamental plot of the game in a heartbeat if they pushed a different way with it, which for some might consider it a good thing. The more I think on it, the more it feels like Andromeda is a transitional game, in a way. New cast, engine, scenario, world building. It has baggage from the trilogy while trying to find it's footing. Still good, but not great, and we all expect great from BioWare, even the press (which is why I suspect so many of these articles are popping up now a days) but one can hope the next stop is going to be smoother. Truthfully, I think they had their moment of optimism now in this game, but they need to get a bit more serious but not so earnest with it in the next. A lot of the tools are set, they can refine them as they go as well, create tighter stories and the like.
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Post by simtam on Apr 21, 2017 14:51:40 GMT
Before venting about the open-world aspect, let me say that I am intrigued by the passing mention, in this topic, the Skyrim mod that is an "entire new world to play". Is it an indiscretion here to name the game which, depending on how you see it, rips off or rips to shreds the Mass Effect trilogy Reaper's plot? And for every Skyrim fan who played hundreds or thousands hours, "walking in random direction until stumble upon something interesting", there is a player who simply completed the main story and a choice of side quests, much like we usually consume RPG games. And I had a positive impression of the Skyrim main quest, since it wrapped itself in around 15-25 hours. Now, Andromeda for me was in the ballpark of 35-45 hours (depending on stuff such as finding missing arks). And while it resolved neatly in the end, there's a lingering feeling that such a story could take less. When I finally got an outpost at Eos, I've already clocked 14h. Contrast this with Inquisition, where I got to Skyhold after 8, maybe 9 hours - and the 3 hours sequence from the mage guild quest to Skyhold was so good that I didn't exit the game to fix the "grease hair" graphics (which by that time became increasingly annoying due to NPCs sporting mustaches).
On to the open-world, then. A lot of things, T-pose animation glitches and whatnot, would be an issue even if it wasn't an open-world game, I imagine. So what would be fixed if it wasn't an open-world game? You've already mentioned the task quests, their navpoints needn't look the same on the map as navpoints for the rest of quests, since they are presumably more substantial than tasks. I've noticed a few things, mostly from Eos, hope it won't be much of a spoiler for you. Please clarify if they has been already fixed with patches:
1) who exactly introduces the word "Remnant"? When you meet Peebee, the conversation implies it's a term made by her and the Pathfinder does not know it. But even before you meet her, if you drive by some remnant point of interest, it triggers a dialogue or a line from your squadmates as if everyone knew already what "Remnant" means. Pretty sure nobody at the Nexus talked about those ancient aliens using that word, though I could have omitted something.
2) there is an abandoned outpost, and when you approach it from the canyon road, squadmate Liam says something to the meaning "Whoa! This base is so abandoned! And, I'm totally surprised, it's a dead body there!". He also says the same line if you entered the outpost from the other side, scanned quite a few dead people already, and now are exiting through the canyon road.
3) attacking enemy outposts. Really it would be no worse if we've got the Mako cannon on the Nomad and pound the bad guys as in ME1. As it is now, you just drive Nomad in the sniping range, preferably on a hill to get the height advantage, then exit the Nomad and use it as a cover. This tactic is hinted at during load screens. To rub the salt, enemy reinforcement dropships unload the troops into the enemy outpost, and not, say, behind your lines or anything smart. (note: possibly, it might not work as well on insane difficulty, because of life support you'd have to re-enter Nomad and recuperate after some time; but still).
These wouldn't be in a more linear game, because 1) player would always meet Peebee first, and find more remnant structures later 2) player would always enter the outpost the canyon road, not the other way round 3) the approach to the enemy outpost would be a corridor-level designed for defense quality.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 21, 2017 15:33:15 GMT
No one is saying Bioware shouldn't explore new ways to expand their games. We're saying, it's more worthwhile to expand their worlds slowly, and have them filled with meaningful or interesting content, rather than plop down giant buggy worlds filled with fetch quests, asari clones, and bad animations. That's what they are doing Ummmm no? Unless you mean, they ARE plopping down "giant buggy worlds filled with fetch quests, asari clones, and bad animations." I mean, that literally describes what they did with MEA.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 21, 2017 17:47:57 GMT
That's what they are doing Ummmm no? Unless you mean, they ARE plopping down "giant buggy worlds filled with fetch quests, asari clones, and bad animations." I mean, that literally describes what they did with MEA. I meant the former and that's what I saw with me: a
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 21, 2017 18:25:09 GMT
Ummmm no? Unless you mean, they ARE plopping down "giant buggy worlds filled with fetch quests, asari clones, and bad animations." I mean, that literally describes what they did with MEA. I meant the former and that's what I saw with me: a I honestly don't see how you could say ME:A wasn't a bunch of giant buggy worlds, filled with fetch quests, asari clones, and bad animations?
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Post by pdusen on Apr 21, 2017 18:59:18 GMT
I meant the former and that's what I saw with me: a I honestly don't see how you could say ME:A wasn't a bunch of giant buggy worlds, filled with fetch quests, asari clones, and bad animations? I mean, I can say that. Very few of the quests were what I would call fetch quests, and the bugs I ran into were few and far between. I would describe the animations as "not good" rather than "bad". I only ran into one quest that I couldn't complete due to a bug, and reloading an older save fixed it.
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Post by linksocarina on Apr 21, 2017 19:05:31 GMT
And its opinions like yours that get us No Man's Sky and Dead Space 3. Games that lose themselves by ever expanding towards a vast meaninglessness or ever pandering towards a profound mediocrity. Incidentally, BioWare would be bringing more to their game, it would just be in the form of deeper politics and detail, not more rocks and resource collection. And I can assure you that there is more life packed into the corpse-infested hallways of Dead Space and the unoccupied rooms of Gone Home than any of Andromeda's artificially constructed worlds with their obligatory resource zones and repeated encounters. And Goddamnit, if another person insists on shoving the term "corridor" down my throat again, I will do precisely nothing because I care more about educating than getting angry. Linearity and corridor are not synonyms. One can easily accommodate a sandbox within a linear context. Don't believe me? Play Halo. And Halo isn't even the half of it. No, you dimwit, it's not opinions like mine... an avid consumer of story-centric games - that get us No Man's Sky. That would be a bad development idea. Get a grip. That is presuming No Man's Sky was a bad development idea to begin with. To be honest, I quite like No Man's Sky for what it promised and delivered. It's a really small niche though.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 21, 2017 19:07:17 GMT
Go here, scan this, report back (or not). Go there, get that, and come back. Fetch quests.
You're lucky on the bugs. That doesn't change the fact that there are numerous bugs. I've got 5 tasks and 3 quests that I can't finish because crap won't spawn or can't be clicked on or people aren't where they're supposed to be.
The animations range from okay to horrid. Nothing could be called anything like good.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 21, 2017 19:10:43 GMT
Go here, scan this, report back (or not). Go there, get that, and come back. Fetch quests. You're lucky on the bugs. That doesn't change the fact that there are numerous bugs. I've got 5 tasks and 3 quests that I can't finish because crap won't spawn or can't be clicked on or people aren't where they're supposed to be. The animations range from okay to horrid. Nothing could be called anything like good. Or explore a downed remnant ship which was a highlight quest for me. While I'm mixed on facial animations the movement animations looked very good to me.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 21, 2017 19:11:31 GMT
Go here, scan this, report back (or not). Go there, get that, and come back. Fetch quests. You're lucky on the bugs. That doesn't change the fact that there are numerous bugs. I've got 5 tasks and 3 quests that I can't finish because crap won't spawn or can't be clicked on or people aren't where they're supposed to be. The animations range from okay to horrid. Nothing could be called anything like good. if you are getting those you must be focusing on the tasks. Most of the quests i play have story, character arcs, they even throw in a plot twist, then at the end you are faced with a decision. The facial animations are fine. Granted they aren't Witcher 3 but no game ever pretty much is Wither 3.
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Post by pdusen on Apr 21, 2017 19:14:30 GMT
Go here, scan this, report back (or not). Go there, get that, and come back. Fetch quests. I guess I'm just not in the habit of ignoring everything going on story-wise and boiling a quest down to the most basic mechanical actions I'm asked to do.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 21, 2017 19:15:32 GMT
There's only a few decent side quests. I never said there were none. But the majority are go here and scan this thing. I think all the Tasks are fetch quests, actually.
So you didn't get sloane twisting into a pretzel or Ryder's creepy exorcist head turn, invisi-Ryder (and other NPCs), and that weird Ryder-Peebee meld?
Getting stuck in cracks. Enemies getting stuck inside objects (and thus rendering their related quest unfinishable), infinite falls. None of those?
Go look at my 13 point list about 5 pages back for more issues.
If you haven't encountered much of this, feel lucky. Most of us have.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 21, 2017 19:54:51 GMT
There's only a few decent side quests. I never said there were none. But the majority are go here and scan this thing. I think all the Tasks are fetch quests, actually. So you didn't get sloane twisting into a pretzel or Ryder's creepy exorcist head turn, invisi-Ryder (and other NPCs), and that weird Ryder-Peebee meld? Getting stuck in cracks. Enemies getting stuck inside objects (and thus rendering their related quest unfinishable), infinite falls. None of those? Go look at my 13 point list about 5 pages back for more issues. If you haven't encountered much of this, feel lucky. Most of us have.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 21, 2017 19:57:17 GMT
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Apr 21, 2017 20:03:33 GMT
Right back at ya, Chicken Little.
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Post by colfoley on Apr 21, 2017 20:04:07 GMT
There's only a few decent side quests. I never said there were none. But the majority are go here and scan this thing. I think all the Tasks are fetch quests, actually. So you didn't get sloane twisting into a pretzel or Ryder's creepy exorcist head turn, invisi-Ryder (and other NPCs), and that weird Ryder-Peebee meld? Getting stuck in cracks. Enemies getting stuck inside objects (and thus rendering their related quest unfinishable), infinite falls. None of those? Go look at my 13 point list about 5 pages back for more issues. If you haven't encountered much of this, feel lucky. Most of us have. let's see i am going to list all the good side quests i have played. I keep updating this list because i keep running into new side quests. Six loyalty missions, five vault quests, five architect quests. Ryder family secrets dissension in the ranks the little things that mattered. Sleeping Dragons. Echoes from the past. Uncovering the past. The Visitor. The Vaseal. Overgrown. Contagion. The quest arcs on Kadara and Havarl. Etc. Etc. Etc. That's at least 28 good side quests i have played. And i know i haven't listed them all.
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Post by smilesja on Apr 21, 2017 20:06:13 GMT
Drack and Vetra's loyalty quests were amazing.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 21, 2017 20:06:59 GMT
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R'Shara
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 768 Likes: 1,310
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Jun 29, 2017 19:50:18 GMT
1,310
R'Shara
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Mar 27, 2017 15:37:15 GMT
March 2017
rshara
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 21, 2017 20:08:07 GMT
Go to any colony world. Finish up the initial area--talking to people, cutscenes, whatever.
Now open your map. What are 2/3s of the markers for?
If you don't mind them, great. Good for you. I'm a completionist, and for me, the quests are repetitive fetchers.
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