smellycatbutts
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 19, 2017 21:00:15 GMT
...SAM? I'm confused. Archon kidnapped Scott but then left the Hyperion for the Meridian vault. SAM was still on Hyperion. How was the Archon able to use Scott's implant to control SAM on the Hyperion to control remnant technology?
Any insight? The game doesn't go into much detail.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 19, 2017 21:09:03 GMT
He just hacked him, shut him down and shackled him with his tech. Sam maybe a power full computer but his interface is limited to connections to people.
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Post by Fogg on Apr 19, 2017 21:13:29 GMT
I think the gained access to SAM during 'Hunting the Archon', so on his own flagship. But he waited until Ryder found Meridian to use SAM and take Ryder down.
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smellycatbutts
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 19, 2017 21:43:55 GMT
He just hacked him, shut him down and shackled him with his tech. Sam maybe a power full computer but his interface is limited to connections to people. That's it? SAM never noticed? It just seems a bit far fetched considering how all knowing SAM is. I mean SAM was able to fight off the virus from that hacker lady, which I imagine to be waaaaaay more sophisticated than the inexperienced archon, whose species hates AI.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 19, 2017 22:18:29 GMT
I want to know why/how he took the Hyperion, and left the Nexus alone, since the ark was docked at the Nexus.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 2:56:55 GMT
He just hacked him, shut him down and shackled him with his tech. Sam maybe a power full computer but his interface is limited to connections to people. That's it? SAM never noticed? It just seems a bit far fetched considering how all knowing SAM is. I mean SAM was able to fight off the virus from that hacker lady, which I imagine to be waaaaaay more sophisticated than the inexperienced archon, whose species hates AI. Oh he notice. it was just too late. As i said before, is more limited then Edi. Edi's senses are the normandy's, SAM senses are Ryders. The hacker your talking about used one attempt and SAM had Ryder help him fight it off, The Archon is right there, he can do it time and time agien no one to stop him
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 3:10:53 GMT
I want to know why/how he took the Hyperion, and left the Nexus alone, since the ark was docked at the Nexus. What point would it serve him to attack the nexus? that's like stopping and doing a dance right before goal in football with out crossing the line.
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 20, 2017 3:26:00 GMT
I still simply think it's BW bullshit bc SAM can detect the archon's device or whatever in Ryder's bloodstream. Ryder obviously can't notice the device, but SAM does, so SAM's detection is not limited to Ryder's senses.
Also, why can't SAM shut off his connection to the Ryder sibling to prevent the Archon from using the sibling? Or he could kill the sibling (just saying good of the universe and all). How did the Archon gain such intimate knowledge of SAM? Did he take advantage of the other SAM on the salarian ark? Wouldn't we have known he tampered with it?
Also, how is the archon able to use the remnant tech so well without any practice? He can use it better than Ryder can despite his own ignorance--proven by his own inabilty to get it working and collecting the equivalent of remtech junk on his shop.
Honestly, I really hated the last part of the main quest bc BW doesn't do a good enough job making the archon's scheme all that plausible. That and the archon was boring as shit, evil for evil's sake, predictable snooze fest.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 3:44:59 GMT
I still simply think it's BW bullshit bc SAM can detect the archon's device or whatever in Ryder's bloodstream. Ryder obviously can't notice the device, but SAM does, so SAM's detection is not limited to Ryder's senses. Also, why can't SAM shut off his connection to the Ryder sibling to prevent the Archon from using the sibling? Or he could kill the sibling (just saying good of the universe and all). How did the Archon gain such intimate knowledge of SAM? Did he take advantage of the other SAM on the salarian ark? Wouldn't we have known he tampered with it? Also, how is the archon able to use the remnant tech so well without any practice? He can use it better than Ryder can despite his own ignorance--proven by his own inabilty to get it working and collecting the equivalent of remtech junk on his shop. Honestly, I really hated the last part of the main quest bc BW doesn't do a good enough job making the archon's scheme all that plausible. That and the archon was boring as shit, evil for evil's sake, predictable snooze fest. From the very start it stated the SAM's senses are ryder's. If Ryder feel it SAM does. If something in side Ryder's body then ofcousre SAm will know about it. SAM's sensors are in Ryder's body. SAM can only sense thing in proximity to ryder. And cutting it off would KILL Ryder. Just like how it almost did when the Archon did it. Also, The Archon did explain why he can use remnant tech many times over, they are using the other Twin as a relay. And it's not that he uses it better, he has more support to do so. The Archon commanded an architect and some mods. Ryder commanded an entire fleet with no SAm support.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 20, 2017 4:07:52 GMT
I want to know why/how he took the Hyperion, and left the Nexus alone, since the ark was docked at the Nexus. If he took over the Nexus and the other ships, the Initiative would be no more. It didn't matter if Ryder gets to Meridian first. He was obsessed with finding Meridian. Even Primus mentions that to Archon. I'm curious what the kett will do with the archon dead.
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 20, 2017 5:03:30 GMT
I want to know why/how he took the Hyperion, and left the Nexus alone, since the ark was docked at the Nexus. What point would it serve him to attack the nexus? that's like stopping and doing a dance right before goal in football with out crossing the line. I realize this. But the Hyperion was docked on the Nexus. How and why did he manage to get the Hyperion away from the Nexus (without any apparent or notable damage to it), and ignore the Nexus, and the other arks?
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 5:14:00 GMT
What point would it serve him to attack the nexus? that's like stopping and doing a dance right before goal in football with out crossing the line. I realize this. But the Hyperion was docked on the Nexus. How and why did he manage to get the Hyperion away from the Nexus (without any apparent or notable damage to it), and ignore the Nexus, and the other arks? Maybe the dock controls are on the ark just had his guys board the docking part of the nexus through the ark to release it?
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Post by R'Shara on Apr 20, 2017 5:58:39 GMT
Meh, still seems like a plot hole. He coulda just taken the entire Nexus just as easily, it would seem. Or why bother with the Hyperion? Do his thing, taunt Ryder, sever the connection and take off with the twin.
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smellycatbutts
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 20, 2017 6:01:22 GMT
I still simply think it's BW bullshit bc SAM can detect the archon's device or whatever in Ryder's bloodstream. Ryder obviously can't notice the device, but SAM does, so SAM's detection is not limited to Ryder's senses. Also, why can't SAM shut off his connection to the Ryder sibling to prevent the Archon from using the sibling? Or he could kill the sibling (just saying good of the universe and all). How did the Archon gain such intimate knowledge of SAM? Did he take advantage of the other SAM on the salarian ark? Wouldn't we have known he tampered with it? Also, how is the archon able to use the remnant tech so well without any practice? He can use it better than Ryder can despite his own ignorance--proven by his own inabilty to get it working and collecting the equivalent of remtech junk on his shop. Honestly, I really hated the last part of the main quest bc BW doesn't do a good enough job making the archon's scheme all that plausible. That and the archon was boring as shit, evil for evil's sake, predictable snooze fest. From the very start it stated the SAM's senses are ryder's. If Ryder feel it SAM does. If something in side Ryder's body then ofcousre SAm will know about it. SAM's sensors are in Ryder's body. SAM can only sense thing in proximity to ryder. And cutting it off would KILL Ryder. Just like how it almost did when the Archon did it. Also, The Archon did explain why he can use remnant tech many times over, they are using the other Twin as a relay. And it's not that he uses it better, he has more support to do so. The Archon commanded an architect and some mods. Ryder commanded an entire fleet with no SAm support. That doesn't really answer my questions. Yes, the archon uses sibling Ryder, but how for all the reasons asked in my previous post. And SAM is not limited to what Ryder feels; there's no way Ryder could know archon implanted a device inside, but SAM knew. Otherwise, how is SAM able to determine all the environmental changes in planets when we activate vaults? Ryder can't determine the temperature is now exactly 78.9 degrees. "Just because" archon does/can isn't good enough from BW. Basically it comes down to the fact that the game fails to demonstrate the archon even has the capability to accomplish what he does in the game. It's like the reasons he can are "alternative facts."
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 6:23:04 GMT
From the very start it stated the SAM's senses are ryder's. If Ryder feel it SAM does. If something in side Ryder's body then ofcousre SAm will know about it. SAM's sensors are in Ryder's body. SAM can only sense thing in proximity to ryder. And cutting it off would KILL Ryder. Just like how it almost did when the Archon did it. Also, The Archon did explain why he can use remnant tech many times over, they are using the other Twin as a relay. And it's not that he uses it better, he has more support to do so. The Archon commanded an architect and some mods. Ryder commanded an entire fleet with no SAm support. That doesn't really answer my questions. Yes, the archon uses sibling Ryder, but how for all the reasons asked in my previous post. And SAM is not limited to what Ryder feels; there's no way Ryder could know archon implanted a device inside, but SAM knew. Otherwise, how is SAM able to determine all the environmental changes in planets when we activate vaults? Ryder can't determine the temperature is now exactly 78.9 degrees. "Just because" archon does/can isn't good enough from BW. Basically it comes down to the fact that the game fails to demonstrate the archon even has the capability to accomplish what he does in the game. It's like the reasons he can are "alternative facts." 1. On SAM it's been stated over and over how sam does his thing. Ryder is a relay and his brain is connect to sam due to the implant. SAM uses Ryder's senses and implaint to connect to the world . THIS WHAT SAM LITERALLY TELL WHEN YOU ASK YOU THIS INFO. this is not me making bs up. This is what SAM and the plot says. And we know that SAM can sense what's going in Ryder's body because he tell you and we see it on every planet with any hazard. He ch he even turn off Ryder's heart and tells Ryder's what his bodies condition is. If it have to I will literally post video with his stating this and codex stating this. As I said before SAM is not Edi, he is limiter to Ryder, Ryder's senses and Ryder's implant for any sensory.While Edi's sensory is to the normandy and her robot body, SAM just has Ryder and ryder's implant. He can just shut down, that is done by a 3rd person and that would kill Ryder if he did it. In short, sam is comment to Ryder due to the implant and Ryder is a relay for sam. THEY ARE CODEPENDENT.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 6:24:50 GMT
Meh, still seems like a plot hole. He coulda just taken the entire Nexus just as easily, it would seem. Or why bother with the Hyperion? Do his thing, taunt Ryder, sever the connection and take off with the twin. remember, the Nexus was mostly off when the ark docked the fist time. The ark docked alone with o help from.the nexus.
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Post by themikefest on Apr 20, 2017 6:25:46 GMT
I realize this. But the Hyperion was docked on the Nexus. How and why did he manage to get the Hyperion away from the Nexus (without any apparent or notable damage to it), and ignore the Nexus, and the other arks? Because the plot demanded that it happen that way
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smellycatbutts
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 20, 2017 6:35:33 GMT
That doesn't really answer my questions. Yes, the archon uses sibling Ryder, but how for all the reasons asked in my previous post. And SAM is not limited to what Ryder feels; there's no way Ryder could know archon implanted a device inside, but SAM knew. Otherwise, how is SAM able to determine all the environmental changes in planets when we activate vaults? Ryder can't determine the temperature is now exactly 78.9 degrees. "Just because" archon does/can isn't good enough from BW. Basically it comes down to the fact that the game fails to demonstrate the archon even has the capability to accomplish what he does in the game. It's like the reasons he can are "alternative facts." 1. On SAM it's been stated over and over how sam does his thing. Ryder is a relay and his brain is connect to sam due to the implant. SAM uses Ryder's senses and implaint to connect to the world . THIS WHAT SAM LITERALLY TELL WHEN YOU ASK YOU THIS INFO. this is not me making bs up. This is what SAM and the plot says. And we know that SAM can sense what's going in Ryder's body because he tell you and we see it on every planet with any hazard. He ch he even turn off Ryder's heart and tells Ryder's what his bodies condition is. If it have to I will literally post video with his stating this and codex stating this. As I said before SAM is not Edi, he is limiter to Ryder, Ryder's senses and Ryder's implant for any sensory.While Edi's sensory is to the normandy and her robot body, SAM just has Ryder and ryder's implant. He can just shut down, that is done by a 3rd person and that would kill Ryder if he did it. In short, sam is comment to Ryder due to the implant and Ryder is a relay for sam. THEY ARE CODEPENDENT. I understand that BW says this is how SAM works, but then BW violated their own canon bc otherwise HOW DOES SAM KNOW THAT THE ARCHON PLANTED A DEVICE INSIDE RYDER's BODY? Ryder knows he/she got a shot, but a device? No, Ryder could not possibly know that on his/her own. Hence SAM tells Ryder their is a device inside his/her bloodstream, and he attempts to neutralize it. Also, "this is how SAM works" still doesn't explain how the archon maintains control of SAM when SAM is still on the Hyperion and the archon is inside the vault on Meridian. The archon just PLOT DEVICES a way to control SAM through the Ryder sibling? When did the archon become such a master of AI hacking when their species destroys AI instead of studying it? How would the archon know the first thing about hacking into AI? Also, I don't see this as arguing with you so much as I see it arguing with BW. I've never doubted the fantasy logic of BW games so much before, usually I can suspend my disbelief, but not in this case.
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 20, 2017 6:36:54 GMT
I still simply think it's BW bullshit bc SAM can detect the archon's device or whatever in Ryder's bloodstream. Ryder obviously can't notice the device, but SAM does, so SAM's detection is not limited to Ryder's senses. Also, why can't SAM shut off his connection to the Ryder sibling to prevent the Archon from using the sibling? Or he could kill the sibling (just saying good of the universe and all). How did the Archon gain such intimate knowledge of SAM? Did he take advantage of the other SAM on the salarian ark? Wouldn't we have known he tampered with it? Also, how is the archon able to use the remnant tech so well without any practice? He can use it better than Ryder can despite his own ignorance--proven by his own inabilty to get it working and collecting the equivalent of remtech junk on his shop. Honestly, I really hated the last part of the main quest bc BW doesn't do a good enough job making the archon's scheme all that plausible. That and the archon was boring as shit, evil for evil's sake, predictable snooze fest. The Archon "shackled" SAM. For all its personality, SAM is an AI; and shackled AIs have no choice but to obey directives. Of course SAM has sensors. It has ridiculously good perception through Ryder's hardsuit and omnitool, and likely some camera access in SAM node. It has no defenses, though. Most people are freaked out by SAM. They reticently accept that the Pathfinders use SAM, but aren't particularly comfortable with it. There's no way they'd allow SAM access to hardware with which it could battle "intruders", fearing it would possibly turn them against AI personnel. Once Hyperion falls under kett control, SAM is relatively defenseless against the Archon's shackling. We have no idea just how intelligent Archon is, but he seems likely much smarter than Ryder. He's old, possibly very old, and thus pretty experienced. He has the genetic traits of who-knows-how-many species. His having the smarts to puzzle out Remnant tech isn't that shocking, to me. He's been studying this stuff for 80+ years. He has a grasp of how it works, but can't access it at all until seizing SAM. More importantly, we learn after the fact that he wasn't even controlling the tech during the fight. It just seemed that way to Ryder. He was completely overwhelmed by the connection to Meridian. His snooping awoke the damaged Architect and its bots, but he wasn't controlling them. I can't help him on the "being more interesting" front, since that's entirely subjective. The other issues, though, actually make sense once all provided data is considered.
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 20, 2017 6:41:17 GMT
Meh, still seems like a plot hole. He coulda just taken the entire Nexus just as easily, it would seem. Or why bother with the Hyperion? Do his thing, taunt Ryder, sever the connection and take off with the twin. The kett are a hardened military force, so taking Hyperion from Nexus Security isn't hard. (They could barely handle a pitiful "uprising". They cant fight the kett, as Kandros bluntly states at one point.) Having secured control of Hyperion, they shackled SAM. Much like Ark Natanus' SAM, Ryder's (more capable) SAM was no doubt able to accomplish any disembarkation and piloting that the Archon commanded.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by smellycatbutts on Apr 20, 2017 6:45:25 GMT
I still simply think it's BW bullshit bc SAM can detect the archon's device or whatever in Ryder's bloodstream. Ryder obviously can't notice the device, but SAM does, so SAM's detection is not limited to Ryder's senses. Also, why can't SAM shut off his connection to the Ryder sibling to prevent the Archon from using the sibling? Or he could kill the sibling (just saying good of the universe and all). How did the Archon gain such intimate knowledge of SAM? Did he take advantage of the other SAM on the salarian ark? Wouldn't we have known he tampered with it? Also, how is the archon able to use the remnant tech so well without any practice? He can use it better than Ryder can despite his own ignorance--proven by his own inabilty to get it working and collecting the equivalent of remtech junk on his shop. Honestly, I really hated the last part of the main quest bc BW doesn't do a good enough job making the archon's scheme all that plausible. That and the archon was boring as shit, evil for evil's sake, predictable snooze fest. The Archon "shackled" SAM. For all its personality, SAM is an AI; and shackled AIs have no choice but to obey directives. Of course SAM has sensors. It has ridiculously good perception through Ryder's hardsuit and omnitool, and likely some camera access in SAM node. It has no defenses, though. Most people are freaked out by SAM. They reticently accept that the Pathfinders use SAM, but aren't particularly comfortable with it. There's no way they'd allow SAM access to hardware with which it could battle "intruders", fearing it would possibly turn them against AI personnel. Once Hyperion falls under kett control, SAM is relatively defenseless against the Archon's shackling. We have no idea just how intelligent Archon is, but he seems likely much smarter than Ryder. He's old, possibly very old, and thus pretty experienced. He has the genetic traits of who-knows-how-many species. His having the smarts to puzzle out Remnant tech isn't that shocking, to me. He's been studying this stuff for 80+ years. He has a grasp of how it works, but can't access it at all until seizing SAM. More importantly, we learn after the fact that he wasn't even controlling the tech during the fight. It just seemed that way to Ryder. He was completely overwhelmed by the connection to Meridian. His snooping awoke the damaged Architect and its bots, but he wasn't controlling them. I can't help him on the "being more interesting" front, since that's entirely subjective. The other issues, though, actually make sense once all provided data is considered. Well technically, he doesn't puzzle it out because he collected a bunch of remnant dog shit on his ship, per SAM's analysis. So BW's failure to convince me that their ARCHON PLOT DEVICE is plausible is a result of their failure to properly develop the archon's character? I mean, in the end, my opinion is that the archon is a petulant 2 y/o throwing a temper tantrum, "WAAAHHHH I will destroy you and all you care about!" How exactly does the archon's behavior in the final battle demonstrate any wisdom or intelligence? It doesn't: BW failed to establish that the archon is anything beyond a power hungry bad guy bad for bad's sake. So the archon has brains off screen? Very well. Damn, whoever wrote the archon's character needs to go back to writing school.
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Post by Element Zero on Apr 20, 2017 6:57:08 GMT
The Archon "shackled" SAM. For all its personality, SAM is an AI; and shackled AIs have no choice but to obey directives. Of course SAM has sensors. It has ridiculously good perception through Ryder's hardsuit and omnitool, and likely some camera access in SAM node. It has no defenses, though. Most people are freaked out by SAM. They reticently accept that the Pathfinders use SAM, but aren't particularly comfortable with it. There's no way they'd allow SAM access to hardware with which it could battle "intruders", fearing it would possibly turn them against AI personnel. Once Hyperion falls under kett control, SAM is relatively defenseless against the Archon's shackling. We have no idea just how intelligent Archon is, but he seems likely much smarter than Ryder. He's old, possibly very old, and thus pretty experienced. He has the genetic traits of who-knows-how-many species. His having the smarts to puzzle out Remnant tech isn't that shocking, to me. He's been studying this stuff for 80+ years. He has a grasp of how it works, but can't access it at all until seizing SAM. More importantly, we learn after the fact that he wasn't even controlling the tech during the fight. It just seemed that way to Ryder. He was completely overwhelmed by the connection to Meridian. His snooping awoke the damaged Architect and its bots, but he wasn't controlling them. I can't help him on the "being more interesting" front, since that's entirely subjective. The other issues, though, actually make sense once all provided data is considered. Well technically, he doesn't puzzle it out because he collected a bunch of remnant dog shit on his ship, per SAM's analysis. So BW's failure to convince me that their ARCHON PLOT DEVICE is plausible is a result of their failure to properly develop the archon's character? I mean, in the end, my opinion is that the archon is a petulant 2 y/o throwing a temper tantrum, "WAAAHHHH I will destroy you and all you care about!" How exactly does the archon's behavior in the final battle demonstrate any wisdom or intelligence? It doesn't: BW failed to establish that the archon is anything beyond a power hungry bad guy bad for bad's sake. So the archon has brains off screen? Very well. Damn, whoever wrote the archon's character needs to go back to writing school. I figured this might be mentioned. With no way to activate any of the tech, he was unable to separate the wheat from the chaff. Once he could get into the system, though, he started figuring it out, leaning heavily on SAM. He was using SAM, just like Alec and Sara/Scott have been doing. With SAM shackled, he could use it to do the heavy-lifting, which is essentially what Ryder did, in the beginning. My goal isn't to defend any short-comings in the Archon's development. I just addressed the "How could he manage this?" parts. He is perfectly capable of shackling SAM, and so on. That was the point of my post, rather than to debate or defend his setup or character development.
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Post by Ahriman on Apr 20, 2017 7:17:27 GMT
It's magic. Archon can't do anything with Remnants, but Sam hacks them with ease, so Archon hacks what hacks Remnants instead. Sure thing, makes sense.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 7:24:51 GMT
1. On SAM it's been stated over and over how sam does his thing. Ryder is a relay and his brain is connect to sam due to the implant. SAM uses Ryder's senses and implaint to connect to the world . THIS WHAT SAM LITERALLY TELL WHEN YOU ASK YOU THIS INFO. this is not me making bs up. This is what SAM and the plot says. And we know that SAM can sense what's going in Ryder's body because he tell you and we see it on every planet with any hazard. He ch he even turn off Ryder's heart and tells Ryder's what his bodies condition is. If it have to I will literally post video with his stating this and codex stating this. As I said before SAM is not Edi, he is limiter to Ryder, Ryder's senses and Ryder's implant for any sensory.While Edi's sensory is to the normandy and her robot body, SAM just has Ryder and ryder's implant. He can just shut down, that is done by a 3rd person and that would kill Ryder if he did it. In short, sam is comment to Ryder due to the implant and Ryder is a relay for sam. THEY ARE CODEPENDENT. I understand that BW says this is how SAM works, but then BW violated their own canon bc otherwise HOW DOES SAM KNOW THAT THE ARCHON PLANTED A DEVICE INSIDE RYDER's BODY? Ryder knows he/she got a shot, but a device? No, Ryder could not possibly know that on his/her own. Hence SAM tells Ryder their is a device inside his/her bloodstream, and he attempts to neutralize it. Also, "this is how SAM works" still doesn't explain how the archon maintains control of SAM when SAM is still on the Hyperion and the archon is inside the vault on Meridian. The archon just PLOT DEVICES a way to control SAM through the Ryder sibling? When did the archon become such a master of AI hacking when their species destroys AI instead of studying it? How would the archon know the first thing about hacking into AI? Also, I don't see this as arguing with you so much as I see it arguing with BW. I've never doubted the fantasy logic of BW games so much before, usually I can suspend my disbelief, but not in this case. I just literally told you. It's with the implant in Ryder's body. The thing that allows sam to enhance. Modify, turn off, and analyze ryder's body and links SAM to Ryder's sense is the implant. ONE WOULD BE SAFE ASSUME IT CAN BE USED TO SENSE WHAT'S GOING ON IN RYDER's BODY. Hell, it literally shows that it do3s.time and time agein.
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Post by dreman999 on Apr 20, 2017 7:25:43 GMT
It's magic. Archon can't do anything with Remnants, but Sam hacks them with ease, so Archon hacks what hacks Remnants instead. Sure thing, makes sense. So mathematics is magic somehow?
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