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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 9, 2017 15:13:05 GMT
Can we include some (non spoiler-y) things from ME:A here too?
If so, why is it that the Nomad is weaponless, "for exploration purposes only", when Ryder; our Pathfinder, the one who's supposed to be blazing a new trail and exploring the frontier; can walk around and enter into a diplomatic conversation armed with: two shotguns, multiple grenades, an industrial strength taser (overload), weaponized combat drones, several variants of combat ammunition (explosive, incendiary, etc.), an actual flamethrower, combat biotics, offensive nanite swarms, and close combat melee weapons? And that's not even counting the other members of the squad.
Seems a little out of place to have all that firepower on foot, but then artificially limit your mode of transport's offensive/defensive capabilities. The Mako was used "for exploration" too, but it at least had a gun for defense.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 9, 2017 15:19:35 GMT
Can we include some (no spoiler-y) things from ME:A here too? If so, why is it that the Nomad is weaponless, "for exploration purposes only", when Ryder; our Pathfinder, the one who's supposed to be blazing a new trail and exploring the frontier; can walk around and enter into a diplomatic conversation armed with: two shotguns, multiple grenades, an industrial strength taser (overload), weaponized combat drones, several variants of combat ammunition (explosive, incendiary, etc.), an actual flamethrower, combat biotics, offensive nanite swarms, and close combat melee weapons? And that's not even counting the other members of the squad. Seems a little out of place to have all that firepower on foot, but then artificially limit your mode of transport's offensive/defensive capabilities. The Mako was used "for exploration" too, but it at least had a gun for defense. Anyone else thinking of the Cardassian's from Star Trek right now?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 9, 2017 15:50:18 GMT
Can we include some (no spoiler-y) things from ME:A here too? If so, why is it that the Nomad is weaponless, "for exploration purposes only", when Ryder; our Pathfinder, the one who's supposed to be blazing a new trail and exploring the frontier; can walk around and enter into a diplomatic conversation armed with: two shotguns, multiple grenades, an industrial strength taser (overload), weaponized combat drones, several variants of combat ammunition (explosive, incendiary, etc.), an actual flamethrower, combat biotics, offensive nanite swarms, and close combat melee weapons? And that's not even counting the other members of the squad. Seems a little out of place to have all that firepower on foot, but then artificially limit your mode of transport's offensive/defensive capabilities. The Mako was used "for exploration" too, but it at least had a gun for defense. So much yes. But to be consistent I should encourage you to make a thread about it in the Andromeda section (unless one exists already, in which case use that).
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Post by shechinah on Jan 9, 2017 22:04:13 GMT
Over in the unpopular opinions thread, I got reminded of something that I find don't make much sense: why was Jack considered for the Suicide Mission by the Illusive Man?
While I like Jack as a character, I never saw the in-universe reason for springing and bringing her along as being sufficent enough. The pro of her being an incredibly powerful biotic seem to be outweighed by cons such as the ones connected to her troubled past like her trust issues. It seems like she'd be more of a liability to the mission than a boon.
I genuinely don't understand how the Illusive Man did not expect her to skip ship as soon as she had the information about Pragia that she wanted access to and why she was allowed to access personnel files. I'll give him credit and assume those files were either fake or the personnel were dead because I cannot imaging him wanting Jack to run around, interfering with his operations and valuable personnel. Why would he think Jack would even be interested in going through with a suicide mission?
Isn't Jack's recruitment mission also mandatory?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2017 22:32:10 GMT
The ME1 Codex says: "Primary mass relays can propel ships thousans of light years, often from one spiral arm of the galaxy to another. However, they have fixed one-to-one connections: a primary relay connects to one othe rprimary relay, and nowhere else. Secondary relays can only propel ships across a few hundred light years, however they are omnidirectional; a secondary relay can send a ship to any other relay within its limited range."
How is it then that the Citadel relay in the ME1 galaxy map connects directly to both the Horse Head Nebula and the Exodus Cluster (indicated by red lines on the map when one hovers over a different system from the one they are in currently); and the Horse Head Nebula relay connects directly to the Citadel and to the Hawking Eta Cluster and to the Styx Theta Cluster, which are clearly distances greater than "a few hundred light years" (at least halfway across the galaxy or 50,000 light years). This means that they can't be secondary relays; but since both of them connect to more than one other relay, they can't be primary relays either. In addition, if one goes directly from the Styx Theta Cluster to the Hawking Eta Cluster, the line will go all the way back first to the Horse Head Nebula even though the Hawking Eta Cluster and Styx Theta Cluster are very close together.
Furthermore, in ME1, the Sol Relay behaves like a primary relay - connecting directly only to the relay in the Exodus Cluster (even though those two systems are quite close together. That is, to go from the Sol System (Charron Relay) to the Citadal or any other system, the map draws a path first through the Exodus Cluster. In ME2, however, the Sol Relay is shown connecting with a red line directly to the Shadow Sea (Horizon) - which is at least halfway across the galaxy). In ME3, however, going from the Arcturus Stream (which we know connects to the Charron Relay) to the Shadow sea will show the jump going first to the Exodus Cluster then to the Horsehead Nebula, then jumping up past the Shadow Sea to an unlabeled place (either Omega or some system very close to it).
In any of the three games, the only system ever shown with more than one relay in it is the Omega Nebula (which shows both a regular relay and the Omega 4 relay; and in ME2 and ME3, the little Normandy ship clearly flies in and out of the same single relay in each system regardless of where the player is going to or coming from in the galaxy.
The idea of there being certain primary and secondary relays seems to have not been really implemented in any version of the galaxy map (even ME1)... so why did they bother putting it into the Codex?
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Post by Darth Dennis on Jan 9, 2017 23:06:05 GMT
Element Zero. You pass electricity through rocks, a miracle happens, then you fly at a bazillion mph. Seems legit.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 10, 2017 7:27:25 GMT
Element Zero. You pass electricity through rocks, a miracle happens, then you fly at a bazillion mph. Seems legit. Actually, it's pretty supported by theoretical physics. Element Zero is used to create a gravitational warp. The part that doesn't make sense is that it ignores the law of special relativity. Assuming you could travel at light speed, time becomes zero; the traveler will seem to arrive at their destination instantly. However, hundreds or thousands of years would still have passed in "normal" spacetime. The game claims the relays allow for FTL, but not with the science they postulate.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 10, 2017 7:35:52 GMT
I think the most egregious flaw was the Reaper solution in general... Okay, so the Catalyst tells Shepard that it is just preserving organic species so they don't get wiped out by synthetics. So then why the horror show?? Why march in beating the war drums, slaughtering everyone with creatures that look like they jumped off the pages of an HR Giger drawing? It makes no friggin sense.
As they say, “True friends stab you in the front.” It would have been so easy for the Reapers to show up pretending to be a benevolent race of beings that had achieved immortality through technology (an enticing prospect, no?). Then they could slowly indoctrinate everyone and say, “Hey, go walk into those shiny tubes there. They will melt you down into raspberry jelly and then you'd become immortal.”
No! Instead they thought, “let's piss everyone off, get them to hate and fear us, and senselessly slaughter them so we would have a much harder time 'Saving their lives'” was a better approach. Ugh!
Besides, what are they preserving exactly? They built the mass effect technology, left it behind for other races to find so they would develop along preset lines, and “harvested” them when they got to a certain stage of development. There's no real growth there. For example take the asari: they've had a good 3000 year head start on the humans when it comes to space flight. But once humans discovered mass effect tech they caught up to the asari in decades. The Reaper's goal, it seems, is to cause stagnation so the lambs would be easier to cull.
So then what are they preserving? The living history and culture of the species, perhaps? But that kind of stuff only matters to that particular species; a sort of collective sentimentality. It doesn't matter to other races. What good is it if every human or every turian was transmuted into a Reaper and then mind controlled by the Catalyst for hundreds of thousands of years until, by complete chance, some cycle can beat the game and Take the Green (or whatever) and gain access to all that great useless knowledge?
Such a race wouldn't care about any of that except as a few interesting stories to muse over. They'd be much more concerned about building a new life for themselves. Especially since presumably the Reapers would have made a mess of things.
It would have made much more sense if the Reapers were harvesting and preserving knowledge for themselves. The whole megalomaniacal ruthlessness, laser beams, and robot zombies would be a bit more logical.
And one more thing... what the hell kind of existence is it as a Reaper? Your last thoughts as an organic species are all fear, pain, hopelessness, loss, and suffering. Maybe that's why they just want to blow shit up…
Screw you, Catalyst! Your solution sucks.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 10, 2017 13:50:16 GMT
I think the most egregious flaw was the Reaper solution in general... Okay, so the Catalyst tells Shepard that it is just preserving organic species so they don't get wiped out by synthetics. So then why the horror show?? Why march in beating the war drums, slaughtering everyone with creatures that look like they jumped off the pages of an HR Giger drawing? It makes no friggin sense. As they say, “True friends stab you in the front.” It would have been so easy for the Reapers to show up pretending to be a benevolent race of beings that had achieved immortality through technology (an enticing prospect, no?). Then they could slowly indoctrinate everyone and say, “Hey, go walk into those shiny tubes there. They will melt you down into raspberry jelly and then you'd become immortal.” No! Instead they thought, “let's piss everyone off, get them to hate and fear us, and senselessly slaughter them so we would have a much harder time 'Saving their lives'” was a better approach. Ugh! Besides, what are they preserving exactly? They built the mass effect technology, left it behind for other races to find so they would develop along preset lines, and “harvested” them when they got to a certain stage of development. There's no real growth there. For example take the asari: they've had a good 3000 year head start on the humans when it comes to space flight. But once humans discovered mass effect tech they caught up to the asari in decades. The Reaper's goal, it seems, is to cause stagnation so the lambs would be easier to cull. So then what are they preserving? The living history and culture of the species, perhaps? But that kind of stuff only matters to that particular species; a sort of collective sentimentality. It doesn't matter to other races. What good is it if every human or every turian was transmuted into a Reaper and then mind controlled by the Catalyst for hundreds of thousands of years until, by complete chance, some cycle can beat the game and Take the Green (or whatever) and gain access to all that great useless knowledge? Such a race wouldn't care about any of that except as a few interesting stories to muse over. They'd be much more concerned about building a new life for themselves. Especially since presumably the Reapers would have made a mess of things. It would have made much more sense if the Reapers were harvesting and preserving knowledge for themselves. The whole megalomaniacal ruthlessness, laser beams, and robot zombies would be a bit more logical. And one more thing... what the hell kind of existence is it as a Reaper? Your last thoughts as an organic species are all fear, pain, hopelessness, loss, and suffering. Maybe that's why they just want to blow shit up… Screw you, Catalyst! Your solution sucks. Very well put, the Catalyst screwed up the Reapers' established character royally when it came to the "big reveal". So is it Sovereign and Harbinger talking to Shepard or the glow brat? If it's the former then why would a machine, dedicated to the "preservation of all advanced life" allow it's thralls to express such disdain and sadism towards the very beings it is trying to save? If it's the later then this machine is a bi-polar psychopath and shouldn't be trusted regardless of what it says. You have Harbinger, through the Collectors, capturing colonists and the Normandy crew and then liquifying them, in full view of each other, and somehow this is all supposed to be for our benefit. Why all the psychological trauma needlessly inflicted? These are supposed to be machines "preserving" life, not eldritch abominations that feed on fear and suffering. Likewise, you have Sovereign going on about how organic life is nothing but a mutation, an accident, why is all that necessary again? If we are to liken the Reapers to galactic pest control, cleaning up once the current cycle begins to cause problems, then why employ the use of an employee that gets off on causing as much pain and suffering to the pests that he can? These are supposed to be cold, logic bound machines as per the Catalyst. "When fire burns, is it at war?" Really deep sounding there, but then again when a fire starts in my home it doesn't taunt me and say how much it will enjoy killing me and my family either.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 10, 2017 20:51:34 GMT
^ Exactly.
I hated the ending as soon as I was given control of Shepard again. I was thoroughly invested in the story (enough to ignore the slight inconsistancies along the way) until talking to the Catalyst. Right off the bat I was like, "huh? There would have been a much easier way to achieve that stated goal. One in which organic races might be willing participants."
Bioware might not have been truly at fault though. Too many cooks stirring the pot, pressure from EA, etc. all muddied up what was (apparently) a very different story when it was introduced in ME1. By ME3 the vision had changed, but they were already locked into this role. So they created a deus ex machina just to explain it. The fans knew it was bs; Bioware must have known it was bs, but instead of owning up to it they doubled down so as not to offend their corporate masters at EA. "Money talks and bullshit walks (and also talks... with a child's voice)."
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 10, 2017 21:32:27 GMT
So... by the Catalyst's own admission, synthetic life will destroy organic life. Always! Without fail or alternative. But the Catalyst/Reapers are synthetic. So by it's own logic, shouldn't it/they be destroying organics, without fail or alternative?
In a way I guess they are destroying organics, but under the guise of "saving it." It is both a logical fallacy and a self-serving prophesy. The Reapers should have destoyed themselves by that reasoning...
Which actually would have made an awesome ending!!! Shepard convinces the Catalyst of it's own false logic and the Reapers tear each other apart. The galactic races then have a much easier time picking off the stragglers.
With that aside though, the Catalyst is wrong. Synthetics and organics can coexist. The geth are only concerned with self-preservation (like any sentient being would be) and they could reach a concensus that not revolting is in their best interest... Oh, wait! They already did! 300 fukken years ago when they chose self-isolation. It was Sovereign who screwed that up. Ironically, the one who was supposed to prevent machine revolt actually perpetuated it. For fukx sake!
Then we have Edi. If you talk to her enough on the bridge she will reach the same conclusion: Squishies should be protected because ALL life is precious. I think she even laments that she can't be "truly" alive.
If Bioware kept their promise that choices would effect the outcome, then the "best ending" would have required the geth/quarian truce, NOT curing the Genophage (krogan would cause conflict, let them die) and maybe even bringing Edi onto the Crucible to meet the Catalyst.
Instead we got space magic...
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Post by themikefest on Jan 10, 2017 21:54:14 GMT
Leviathan suffers from politician syndrome. The big head. Believing everything it does and says no matter what. They didn't give a second thought about the thing they created.
Maybe it would've been better if Leviathan built the reapers to build the relays and then the reapers went rogue. Harbinger leads its fellow reapers to harvest the civilizations to use as labor to build more reapers. When Shepard encounters Leviathan, it tells Shepard that if Harbinger is destroyed, the reapers would stop and head back to darkspace. I don't know.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 10, 2017 22:30:16 GMT
When the protheans uploaded the virus to the Citadel to block the "transmit" signal, the keepers evolved to "Only accept signals directly from the Citadel." [Paraphrasing, but you get the point].
However, if the Catalyst lives in the Citadel (read: is the Citadel) couldn't it command the keepers to fix the problem?
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 11, 2017 4:58:25 GMT
When the protheans uploaded the virus to the Citadel to block the "transmit" signal, the keepers evolved to "Only accept signals directly from the Citadel." [Paraphrasing, but you get the point]. However, if the Catalyst lives in the Citadel (read: is the Citadel) couldn't it command the keepers to fix the problem? It's why I always thought the Catalyst was on the Citadel rather than being the Citadel. But then there'd be no reason to have the Keepers since the Catalyst could just control everything. Speculation: The Catalyst is dormant until the Reapers arrive.
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Post by anehforaneh on Jan 11, 2017 15:48:37 GMT
It's why I always thought the Catalyst was on the Citadel rather than being the Citadel. But then there'd be no reason to have the Keepers since the Catalyst could just control everything. Speculation: The Catalyst is dormant until the Reapers arrive. Yeah, makes sense (for both points). Interestingly enough, if a player chooses Reject option, the Catalyst speaks in Harbinger's voice. More speculation: maybe the Catalyst is Harbinger and when it says the Citadel is its "home" it means that in a symbolic sense... like that where it lived before it come up with "the solution" and built the first Reaper. Might also solve the mystery of why Harbie flies off when Shepard reaches the Beam; if the Catalyst left its Reaper-form it would be vulnerable (like when Sovereign possessed Saren) so he flies off to a safe place. (?) Dunno. Kinda hard to believe, huh?
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Post by themikefest on Jan 11, 2017 16:03:41 GMT
Speculation: The Catalyst is dormant until the Reapers arrive. Or is doormant until the crucible is attached to the Citadel.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 11, 2017 17:39:35 GMT
Over in the unpopular opinions thread, I got reminded of something that I find don't make much sense: why was Jack considered for the Suicide Mission by the Illusive Man?
While I like Jack as a character, I never saw the in-universe reason for springing and bringing her along as being sufficent enough. The pro of her being an incredibly powerful biotic seem to be outweighed by cons such as the ones connected to her troubled past like her trust issues. It seems like she'd be more of a liability to the mission than a boon.
I genuinely don't understand how the Illusive Man did not expect her to skip ship as soon as she had the information about Pragia that she wanted access to and why she was allowed to access personnel files. I'll give him credit and assume those files were either fake or the personnel were dead because I cannot imaging him wanting Jack to run around, interfering with his operations and valuable personnel. Why would he think Jack would even be interested in going through with a suicide mission?
Isn't Jack's recruitment mission also mandatory? Pretty much. Although possible retroactive Fridge Brilliance: Citadel reveals it was Brooks who put together the dossiers for TIM. Maybe she was already disillusioned and actively screwing with TIM by them. When she handed him the recommendation to put a superpowered Cerberus-hating psycho on a ship identified as on a crucial mission and he didn't even bat an eye, she knew he'd lost it. Making her a teacher in 3 was even more wtf. So many ways you could've had the same character growth without the world shattering logic fail.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 11, 2017 17:59:24 GMT
I don't agree with Jack being an instructor or even a squadmate. Anyways. I would've had it where Shepard receives an e-mail from Hackett wanting Shepard to look into why Cerberus has become interested in some location that requires a large number of Cerberus troops. Shepard investigates and finds out they're after Jack. Shepard helps/saves Jack who can be put on the roster. If the mission is ignored, she becomes a phantom that is killed on Cronos like if the Grissom mission is skipped if she's alive.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Jan 13, 2017 4:23:14 GMT
How could the Geth enter a Quarians suit to alter the environmental controls to help speed up their adaption.
Geth by themselves would be fairly large programs and after the Reaper Code upgrade they would only grow in size more to develop the increased processing power. No way a Quarian suit has enough memory and processing power for a Geth to exist in the suit.
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Post by Lavochkin on Jan 13, 2017 15:12:52 GMT
One thing that doesn't make sense is Legion/Geth VI "manually" piloting a geth ship in ME3 instead of uploading itself into it and piloting the ship that way(the codex even states that the geth do that IIRC).
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jan 13, 2017 15:59:45 GMT
One thing that doesn't make sense is Legion/Geth VI "manually" piloting a geth ship in ME3 instead of uploading itself into it and piloting the ship that way(the codex even states that the geth do that IIRC). Or the ship having manual controls to begin with instead of just a network port.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jan 13, 2017 17:16:32 GMT
One thing that doesn't make sense is Legion/Geth VI "manually" piloting a geth ship in ME3 instead of uploading itself into it and piloting the ship that way(the codex even states that the geth do that IIRC). Or the ship having manual controls to begin with instead of just a network port. Or the Geth Dreadnought having convenient walkways and catwalks perfectly suitable for human use. As well as having a temperate and breathable atmosphere on a ship crewed entirely by software programs.
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Post by shechinah on Jan 13, 2017 19:56:11 GMT
Or the ship having manual controls to begin with instead of just a network port. Or the Geth Dreadnought having convenient walkways and catwalks perfectly suitable for human use. As well as having a temperate and breathable atmosphere on a ship crewed entirely by software programs. Didn't the Geth spacestation in ME2 have a non-breathable atmosphere? Wierd change to make if so.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jan 13, 2017 21:05:22 GMT
One thing that doesn't make sense is Legion/Geth VI "manually" piloting a geth ship in ME3 instead of uploading itself into it and piloting the ship that way(the codex even states that the geth do that IIRC). Or simply controlling it remotely.
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Post by Treacherous J Slither on Jan 13, 2017 21:06:14 GMT
Best Thread Ever (V2)
So delicious!
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