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Post by Lavochkin on Jan 14, 2017 0:42:59 GMT
Or the Geth Dreadnought having convenient walkways and catwalks perfectly suitable for human use. As well as having a temperate and breathable atmosphere on a ship crewed entirely by software programs. Didn't the Geth spacestation in ME2 have a non-breathable atmosphere? Wierd change to make if so. I believe so,yes. It'd be a waste of energy and space to maintain it in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 2:25:49 GMT
Why would Nihlus, whose stated his purpose was to accompany and observe Shepard suddenly decide to jump out of the Normandy at a different drop zone before Shepard while declaring: "I can move faster on my own?" Isn't he actually ensuring that he's always going to be ahead of Shepard and, therefore, actually unable to observe him/her at all?
Also, without having any further real contact with Nihlus and without really knowing anything more about him... and after being unceremoniously abandoned by him on that mission to Eden Prime... why would Shepard, in ME2, declare to Samara that Nihlus seemed like a "good Spectre" and "an honourable Turian?"
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Post by cooldude on Jan 14, 2017 18:24:03 GMT
The fact Shepard cares about Earth. In two of the three origins, Shepard spends his/her entire life off-world. In the third one, he/she was an orphan that became a gang-banger, and joined the alliance navy to get away from the thug life. It doesn't make sense for him/her to care about Earth, when he/she joined the navy to get away from it.
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Post by Gourmetrix on Jan 15, 2017 14:08:14 GMT
Why would Nihlus, whose stated his purpose was to accompany and observe Shepard suddenly decide to jump out of the Normandy at a different drop zone before Shepard while declaring: "I can move faster on my own?" Isn't he actually ensuring that he's always going to be ahead of Shepard and, therefore, actually unable to observe him/her at all? Also, without having any further real contact with Nihlus and without really knowing anything more about him... and after being unceremoniously abandoned by him on that mission to Eden Prime... why would Shepard, in ME2, declare to Samara that Nihlus seemed like a "good Spectre" and "an honourable Turian?" Wasn't Eden Prime supposed to be dull, to the point that Jenkins was afraid he might die of boredom? But then that dramatic "hand of god" vid showed up. If I were Nihlis and my mission was to secure the beacon, I think I'd tell the trainee that we'd have plenty of time for observation on the next mission.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 14:26:18 GMT
Why would Nihlus, whose stated his purpose was to accompany and observe Shepard suddenly decide to jump out of the Normandy at a different drop zone before Shepard while declaring: "I can move faster on my own?" Isn't he actually ensuring that he's always going to be ahead of Shepard and, therefore, actually unable to observe him/her at all? Also, without having any further real contact with Nihlus and without really knowing anything more about him... and after being unceremoniously abandoned by him on that mission to Eden Prime... why would Shepard, in ME2, declare to Samara that Nihlus seemed like a "good Spectre" and "an honourable Turian?" Wasn't Eden Prime supposed to be dull, to the point that Jenkins was afraid he might die of boredom? But then that dramatic "hand of god" vid showed up. If I were Nihlis and my mission was to secure the beacon, I think I'd tell the trainee that we'd have plenty of time for observation on the next mission. However, Shepard is not a "trainee." It's Shepard's mission to "secure the beacon." Anderson gives that order to Shepard, not Nihlus. I'll word my question a little differently... Why does the Normandy drop Nihlus off at a different point that is obviously closer to the beacon's location and then take more time to drop Shepard farther away? I say this because Shepard winds up just following in Nihlus' footsteps. Why didn't the Normandy drop them all in the same location... and then, if it was prudent, have them split on the ground to try to flank the beacon or, alternatively drop them off in two equadistant, but flanking locations and make it clear to the player that there was a better reason for Nihlus going off on his own rather than having him say "I can move faster..."
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 14:31:59 GMT
Why does the Normandy drop Nihlus off at a different point that is obviously closer to the beacon's location and then take more time to drop Shepard farther away? Its like the question I asked in this thread. Why did James park the shuttle where he did instead of at the front door on Mars?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 14:46:22 GMT
Why does the Normandy drop Nihlus off at a different point that is obviously closer to the beacon's location and then take more time to drop Shepard farther away? Its like the question I asked in this thread. Why did James park the shuttle where he did instead of at the front door on Mars? A little different though. On Mars, you have one team and no real information as to what's happening and where the final objective is... i.e. information is sketchy. So parking a little ways away provides for some stealth. Parking up high, gives some vantage point as well. On Eden Prime, the second drop point doesn't provide Shepard's team with any vantage point on the situation. He can't see the objective area from any point at the drop site... and it's Nihlus who is going in with stealth. Shepard's task, according to Anderson, is to go in hard and push straight for the dig site. I can see going in hard... if Shepard is to provide a distraction... but then why push straight for Nihlus' objective? Also, if the beacon was being moved to prepare for it being picked up by the Alliance, they should have known that's where it would be. Why wouldn't they go to that location first and try to secure it before Saren and the geth could determine it had been moved from the dig site location. Why did Nihlus, after being on the ground, have to discover for himself that "There's a spaceport up ahead?" So... the way this plays out... You have Saren who, by coincidence, lands within sight of the beacon but instead goes off chasing Ashley's unit around the perimeter and you have the Alliance, who should know where the beacon will be because they are scheduled to pick it up in 17 minutes, but instead drops their small squad in two places not actually near either the place where the beacon should be (spaceport) or the place where the beacon was (dig site)... and gives their main squad no vantage point on either location.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 14:50:22 GMT
Its like the question I asked in this thread. Why did James park the shuttle where he did instead of at the front door on Mars? A little different though. On Mars, you have one team, so parking a little ways away provides for some stealth. Parking up high, gives some vantage point as well. Why would you need stealth? If Hackett told Shepard to be on the lookout for Cerberus, than stealth would work. Since there wasn't any known threat at that point, parking away from the front door makes no sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 15:03:10 GMT
A little different though. On Mars, you have one team, so parking a little ways away provides for some stealth. Parking up high, gives some vantage point as well. Why would you need stealth? If Hackett told Shepard to be on the lookout for Cerberus, than stealth would work. Since there wasn't any known threat at that point, parking away from the front door makes no sense. No known threat? They lost comms and earth is under a major attack. They don't know the threat is Cerberus, but they have to assume the potential that the Mars archives might also be under attack from the Reapers. Under the circumstances, I think Normandy should have done a flyover first to assess the situation. If there had been no sign of trouble, they probably should have then landed wherever shuttles normally land at the facility.
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Post by Gourmetrix on Jan 15, 2017 15:08:54 GMT
Wasn't Eden Prime supposed to be dull, to the point that Jenkins was afraid he might die of boredom? But then that dramatic "hand of god" vid showed up. If I were Nihlis and my mission was to secure the beacon, I think I'd tell the trainee that we'd have plenty of time for observation on the next mission. However, Shepard is not a "trainee." It's Shepard's mission to "secure the beacon." Anderson gives that order to Shepard, not Nihlus. I'll word my question a little differently... Why does the Normandy drop Nihlus off at a different point that is obviously closer to the beacon's location and then take more time to drop Shepard farther away? I say this because Shepard winds up just following in Nihlus' footsteps. Why didn't the Normandy drop them all in the same location... and then, if it was prudent, have them split on the ground to try to flank the beacon or, alternatively drop them off in two equadistant, but flanking locations and make it clear to the player that there was a better reason for Nihlus going off on his own rather than having him say "I can move faster..." All right, forgive me, I know better than to engage in discussions where neither of us has access to the writers. Luckily for me perhaps, I just never let these things overly distract me from enjoying the game.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 15:11:43 GMT
No known threat? They lost comms and earth is under a major attack. They don't know the threat is Cerberus, but they have to assume the potential that the Mars archives might also be under attack from the Reapers. And why didn't Hackett inform Shepard that Cerberus might be there? If you're going to send someone to retrieve something, wouldn't you give that person all the information possible to help succeed ? The comms could easily be explained by the giant sandstorm in the background messing with the comms
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 15:13:38 GMT
However, Shepard is not a "trainee." It's Shepard's mission to "secure the beacon." Anderson gives that order to Shepard, not Nihlus. I'll word my question a little differently... Why does the Normandy drop Nihlus off at a different point that is obviously closer to the beacon's location and then take more time to drop Shepard farther away? I say this because Shepard winds up just following in Nihlus' footsteps. Why didn't the Normandy drop them all in the same location... and then, if it was prudent, have them split on the ground to try to flank the beacon or, alternatively drop them off in two equadistant, but flanking locations and make it clear to the player that there was a better reason for Nihlus going off on his own rather than having him say "I can move faster..." All right, forgive me, I know better than to engage in discussions where neither of us has access to the writers. Luckily for me perhaps, I just never let these things overly distract me from enjoying the game. I still enjoy the game... immensely. This is a "Things that don't make sense" thread, right? I was, in fact, accepting your answer to my original question and it cause me to realize I hadn't actually asked the right question since the situation still doesn't make sense to me. That's all. I'm sorry if I've worded things badly.
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Post by Gourmetrix on Jan 15, 2017 15:21:56 GMT
All right, forgive me, I know better than to engage in discussions where neither of us has access to the writers. Luckily for me perhaps, I just never let these things overly distract me from enjoying the game. I still enjoy the game... immensely. This is a "Things that don't make sense" thread, right? I was, in fact, accepting your answer to my original question and it cause me to realize I hadn't actually asked the right question since the situation still doesn't make sense to me. That's all. I'm sorry if I've worded things badly. I actually enjoy such banters, but I don't think I'm very good at it myself. Hence my quick exit. Sorry for the implication that you don't enjoy the game, you clearly do.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 15:22:23 GMT
No known threat? They lost comms and earth is under a major attack. They don't know the threat is Cerberus, but they have to assume the potential that the Mars archives might also be under attack from the Reapers. And why didn't Hackett inform Shepard that Cerberus might be there? If you're going to send someone to retrieve something, wouldn't you give that person all the information possible to help succeed ? The comms could easily be explained by the giant sandstorm in the background messing with the comms At that point, I don't think Hackett is even aware that Cerberus might be there. I think it was that he had been talking with T'Soni about there being something there that could help with the Reaper threat when the Reapers attacked earth... and he wants Shepard to go check it out "before they lose control the of system." Liara is obviously totally unaware that Dr. Eva is with Cerberus. Still, Hackett has no reason to believe that Mars is basking in peaceful sunshine while the Reapers are attacking earth. I think it would just be a logical guess for even Shepard to just think that maybe the Reapers were attacking Mars at the same time and go in, therefore, with a little bit of caution... get a look at the facility from a little ways away to see if everything is calm (which it wasn't). Shepard clearly has no reason to suspect on his own that Cerberus might be there... he/she states as much when Ashley/Kaidan asks the question. I'm not saying James' LZ makes perfect sense, but I see it as making a little more sense overall than the way the Eden Prime mission is set up.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 15:39:29 GMT
At that point, I don't think Hackett is even aware that Cerberus might be there. I think it was that he had been talking with T'Soni about there being something there that could help with the Reaper threat when the Reapers attacked earth... and he wants Shepard to go check it out "before they lose control the of system." Liara is obviously totally unaware that Dr. Eva is with Cerberus. Still, Hackett has no reason to believe that Mars is basking in peaceful sunshine while the Reapers are attacking earth. I think it would just be a logical guess for even Shepard to just think that maybe the Reapers were attacking Mars at the same time and go in, therefore, with a little bit of caution... get a look at the facility from a little ways away to see if everything is calm (which it wasn't). Shepard clearly has no reason to suspect on his own that Cerberus might be there... he/she states as much when Ashley/Kaidan asks the question. I'm not saying James' LZ makes perfect sense, but I see it as making a little more sense overall than the way the Eden Prime mission is set up. When talking with holoHackett, he says, "I thought Cerberus might try something". So he knew they could be involved. A simple line, "Be on the lookout for Cerberus Shepard. They might be involved". Either that or remove the line he says. When landing the shuttle on Mars or even approaching Mars, there was no hint of any reaper activity. It was after Ashley/Kaidan are injured that Joker mentions reaper signatures in orbit.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 16:14:37 GMT
At that point, I don't think Hackett is even aware that Cerberus might be there. I think it was that he had been talking with T'Soni about there being something there that could help with the Reaper threat when the Reapers attacked earth... and he wants Shepard to go check it out "before they lose control the of system." Liara is obviously totally unaware that Dr. Eva is with Cerberus. Still, Hackett has no reason to believe that Mars is basking in peaceful sunshine while the Reapers are attacking earth. I think it would just be a logical guess for even Shepard to just think that maybe the Reapers were attacking Mars at the same time and go in, therefore, with a little bit of caution... get a look at the facility from a little ways away to see if everything is calm (which it wasn't). Shepard clearly has no reason to suspect on his own that Cerberus might be there... he/she states as much when Ashley/Kaidan asks the question. I'm not saying James' LZ makes perfect sense, but I see it as making a little more sense overall than the way the Eden Prime mission is set up. When talking with holoHackett, he says, "I thought Cerberus might try something". So he knew they could be involved. A simple line, "Be on the lookout for Cerberus Shepard. They might be involved". Either that or remove the line he says. When landing the shuttle on Mars or even approaching Mars, there was no hint of any reaper activity. It was after Ashley/Kaidan are injured that Joker mentions reaper signatures in orbit. I'm talking about just the general proximity of Mars to Earth. If Earth is being hit and I knew nothing about the situation on Mars, I would still think there was at least a strong possibility that Mars was also under attack based on proximity alone. Hackett clearly fears imminently losing control of the entire system... not just Earth. So, in actuality, he does warn Shepard that things could be bad on Mars... he's just warning him of what he thinks at that moment might be the greater threat. Yeah, he could have also said something about Cerberus... but I can excuse it because that's not where his mind is focused at that time... it's focused on the Reaper attack. Certainly, a quick fly-by in Normandy would indicate that there are no Reapers yet on Mars. It would also have revealed, however, signs of trouble outside the facility - dead bodies, people being executed in the 'parking lot' by Cerberus soldiers... things Shepard did find out on foot shortly after James landed anyways because Shepard could see down below before descending the ladder... i.e. could see the body that Ashley/Kaidan investigate while Shepard (some classes of Shepard) get to pick up the SR in the dirt below the ladder. I will admit, throughout the Trilogy there is a tendency to drop Shepard far away from the objective when there is no obvious need to and to even drop Shepard into the middle of a fray when the objective is still far away from the LZ (e.g. Turian Bomb). The only mission that I can recall right now that adjusts the LZ based on conditions spotted from the air is Namakii, although I think there are a couple of more in ME3 where Steve does indicate something of the sort... I just can't think of them right now. When a drop happens in ME1 and ME2, it is always well away from the objective... with the exception of the Ilos mission where we get the big argument and Joker gets to play hero by making the impossible drop to put Shepard in on top of Saren. During the Eden Prime mission, Joker even apparently flies right over the dig site without dropping anyone - Hence the line, "Someone's been doing some serious digging here." followed by, after a pause,... "Approaching drop point two." Also, inconsistent with the rest of the game, Normandy drops both Nihlus and Shepard and squad on foot... no Mako, no indication of a run-out distance needed. So why couldn't that have been done on Ilos?
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 16:35:24 GMT
Yeah, he could have also said something about Cerberus... but I can excuse it because that's not where his mind is focused at that time... it's focused on the Reaper attack. I'm sure he's thinking about the reaper attack, but for Shepard to succeed in retrieving whatever on Mars, knowing Cerberus might be involved or might be on Mars, would makes it easier to succeed in that mission. The other problem is Shepard can't ask him about that. I'm sure Hackett would be suffering from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome if Shepard were to ask why he didn't mention they might be involved or at least keep a lookout for them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 16:37:37 GMT
Yeah, he could have also said something about Cerberus... but I can excuse it because that's not where his mind is focused at that time... it's focused on the Reaper attack. I'm sure he's thinking about the reaper attack, but for Shepard to succeed in retrieving whatever on Mars, knowing Cerberus might be involved or might be on Mars, would makes it easier to succeed in that mission. The other problem is Shepard can't ask him about that. I'm sure Hackett would be suffering from cat-got-your-tongue syndrome if Shepard were to ask why he didn't mention they might be involved or at least keep a lookout for them. As I said, I can excuse it because he's focused on the Reaper attack... i.e. it's an oversight on Hackett's part. Again, not saying it makes perfect sense... but, I think, it does make a bit better sense than the way Eden Prime is set up. Shepard certainly has no reason to ask Hackett about Cerberus before he/she actually lands on Mars and finds them there. He/she could, I suppose, accost his/her superior officer about the oversight in not warning him... but, as you say, that option was not put in the game. So, the option for the player to make Shepard's character that insubordinate is not there. That sort of characterization of Shepard is outside the parameters that Bioware set for ME3 (even though it was possible to question Hackett like that in ME1). That is the common complaint players have about ME3. I've said before, I am in favor of Bioware inserting as many different meaningful dialogue options as they can. I recognize that they will never be able to insert all the different dialogue options some players may desire... something will always fall outside the limits of charactertization that Bioware anticipates. I don't object to your objection that line isn't there.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 15, 2017 21:43:49 GMT
At the end of Sur'Kesh when Shepard deliberately asks the Cerberus trooper why Cerberus was there and he only said "we... ugh" and dies it's as if the writers were deliberately lampshade-hanging that particular issue. Someone would probably be gullible and think "Oh man, I wonder what answers I'm gonna get" as if it's building up to a reveal but it really is just the writers deliberately pointing out their cop-out and making you notice that something doesn't seem to make sense (or at least you can only headcanon it)
Never understood why some writers do this. If you have something which makes no sense downplay it all the way or the audience stops believing in your story.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 22:02:40 GMT
At the end of Sur'Kesh when Shepard deliberately asks the Cerberus trooper why Cerberus was there and he only said "we... ugh" and dies it's as if the writers were deliberately lampshade-hanging that particular issue. Someone would probably be gullible and think "Oh man, I wonder what answers I'm gonna get" as if it's building up to a reveal but it really is just the writers deliberately pointing out their cop-out and making you notice that something doesn't seem to make sense (or at least you can only headcanon it) Never understood why some writers do this. If you have something which makes no sense downplay it all the way or the audience stops believing in your story. I always thought that scene was there just to pander to those who like a lot of gore in video games... a close-up look of a guy with his face shot off. Wasn't there a poster around here recently criticizing ME3 for not having people explode in quite the same way as they did in ME2? Same sort of thing as with the bloodbath in the Omega DLC.
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Post by themikefest on Jan 15, 2017 23:25:10 GMT
Its funny Shepard asks the guy why they're here. So why didn't Shepard make any attempt to capture one of them for questioning?
Was the scene just put in to have eve fire a shotgun and then have Shepard ask that question? It amounted to nothing. Just like the fight with the ponytail on Thessia amounted to nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 23:59:18 GMT
Its funny Shepard asks the guy why they're here. So why didn't Shepard make any attempt to capture one of them for questioning? Was the scene just put in to have eve fire a shotgun and then have Shepard ask that question? It amounted to nothing. Just like the fight with the ponytail on Thessia amounted to nothing. I agree that the scene was probably set up to show of Eve firing the shotgun... to show how feisty Krogan women are. That they can stand up to their males. It sets up the scenario of the women being able to keep the males in check even if the player cures the genophage. As I said, having Shepard get in close and ask a question, I think, was really just about showing a close-up of a guy with his face shot off. I certainly didn't expect any great revelation from the guy the moment they showed the amount of damage to his face. Probably a bit ridiculous, all right, that Shepard even asked a question... probably should have just got out his pistol and alleviated his suffering.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 16, 2017 11:52:25 GMT
It was super fine to show EVE shooting the two Cerberus dudes... it just made no sense to have Shepard ask them what they were doing there if BioWare didn't even know the answer - again, it's just lampshade-hanging; pointing out the mistake to show the writer is aware of the contradiction but as a result all you do is make the audience aware that there is a narrative inconsistency. This is something BioWare has been doing more and more. They don't address issues, they just handwave them or show that they know there is a problem but then they don't actually address it.
I'm trying to remember but there was something similar with Leliana in DA:I, but that's another topic.
Bottomline is: Why even bother? Had Shepard not asked the Cerberus guy I honestly would've never thought about why they were on Sur'Kesh, at least not until some forum-poster would've mentioned it. My guess is that it wasn't in the first draft but then a tester or during peer review another person says "Hey uhm, I don't get why Cerberus is there. That makes no sense" and then John Dombrow was like "Hm, I have to address that" and we got this pointless scene.
Also, UpUp, I agree, the scene was also partially to show how brutal their deaths were with blood-splattered helmets. It was edgy, and one of many ME3 scenes where I snorted cuz it was trying too hard to impress me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2017 12:35:36 GMT
It was super fine to show EVE shooting the two Cerberus dudes... it just made no sense to have Shepard ask them what they were doing there if BioWare didn't even know the answer - again, it's just lampshade-hanging; pointing out the mistake to show the writer is aware of the contradiction but as a result all you do is make the audience aware that there is a narrative inconsistency. This is something BioWare has been doing more and more. They don't address issues, they just handwave them or show that they know there is a problem but then they don't actually address it. I'm trying to remember but there was something similar with Leliana in DA:I, but that's another topic. Bottomline is: Why even bother? Had Shepard not asked the Cerberus guy I honestly would've never thought about why they were on Sur'Kesh, at least not until some forum-poster would've mentioned it. My guess is that it wasn't in the first draft but then a tester or during peer review another person says "Hey uhm, I don't get why Cerberus is there. That makes no sense" and then John Dombrow was like "Hm, I have to address that" and we got this pointless scene. Also, UpUp, I agree, the scene was also partially to show how brutal their deaths were with blood-splattered helmets. It was edgy, and one of many ME3 scenes where I snorted cuz it was trying too hard to impress me. I disagree. I don't think they would have felt any need to even try to "address" why Cerberus might be anywhere in the galaxy ahead of Shepard at that point in the game. Cerberus is just the game's main enemy. Using a "shooter" mentality, that means they are just everywhere the PC is going to be. I think the scene is not just "in part" to show spattered blood, that's it sole purpose. Why could Cerberus be on Sur'Kesh? I would think that they were after the Yahg samples... you know, to do more of the same "making monster shock troops" experiments as they did in ME1. Or perhaps they were after the fertile Krogan females... to use them to breed that shock troop army. It's not like it would have been a hard question for Dombrow to have given an answer to. Cerberus is also in fundamental disagreement with the Salarians... who "uplift" alien species (i.e. make them smarter).
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Jan 16, 2017 12:41:26 GMT
Bear in mind that an earlier iteration of Sur'Kesh was showcased at E3 where Shepard says "[Cerberus] They're indoctrinated, they're capable of anything" and in the final game he says "They're capable of anything" cutting out the mention of indoctrination.
Originally it was known from the start that Cerberus were the indoctrinated enemy just fighting Shepard and co. because the Reapers used them to divide and conquer so their presence at Sur'Kesh was as simple as that. Now that this is more hidden it wouldn't make sense to Shepard and Co. why Cerberus were on Sur'Kesh because they aren't at that point known to simply oppose us for the sake of it, thus the need for Shepard to ask the dying soldier and thus not solely a scene made for gore-factor.
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