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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 23, 2018 19:09:52 GMT
The number one problem I have with destroy is that the Leviathans are still around and there's NOTHING left to defend against them. I always thought that would have been a great follow-up game. Besides, the Leviathan numbers are extremely low and we're well aware of the indoctrination artifacts and we could go out of our way to avoid them. We also know a grenade or handheld weapons are able to destroy them with ease. The Leviathan are not invincible and uniting the galaxy further to challenge them would be interesting. I won't keep the Reapers around for that. Plus there's only what, like 3 of them? Hardy a galaxy spanning threat.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2018 19:16:05 GMT
I always thought that would have been a great follow-up game. Besides, the Leviathan numbers are extremely low and we're well aware of the indoctrination artifacts and we could go out of our way to avoid them. We also know a grenade or handheld weapons are able to destroy them with ease. The Leviathan are not invincible and uniting the galaxy further to challenge them would be interesting. I won't keep the Reapers around for that. Plus there's only what, like 3 of them? Hardy a galaxy spanning threat. Sovereign was just one Reaper, and he nearly succeeded. Plus remember like Reapers the Leviathans can indoctrinate people so even though there are only three(that we know of) they could very easily make a massive army to fight for them.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2018 19:18:02 GMT
The number one problem I have with the green and blue is the reapers are still around. Destroying them prevents that. Yes. Exactly. They're pardoned for killing 200 trillion people! I'm not okay with that. I hope you are okay with Shepard being executed after doing Destroy then, since they also kill billions of beings like the Geth with Destroy.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 23, 2018 19:20:20 GMT
Plus there's only what, like 3 of them? Hardy a galaxy spanning threat. Sovereign was just one Reaper, and he nearly succeeded. Plus remember like Reapers the Leviathans can indoctrinate people so even though there are only three(that we know of) they could very easily make a massive army to fight for them. But they lack any long ranged weapons for space battles. That EMP weapon they used has a limited range (both the shuttle and Reaper were below the cloud line on that planet). So a fleet could pick them off easily at long range before they make it to any planet.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2018 19:22:12 GMT
Sovereign was just one Reaper, and he nearly succeeded. Plus remember like Reapers the Leviathans can indoctrinate people so even though there are only three(that we know of) they could very easily make a massive army to fight for them. But they lack any long ranged weapons for space battles. That EMP weapon they used has a limited range (both the shuttle and Reaper were below the cloud line on that planet). So a fleet could pick them off easily at long range before they make it to any planet. Again, none that we know of. The Leviathans were able to rule the entire galaxy before they built the Reapers, so clearly they have capabilities we are not aware of. And that's not counting their controlled vassals.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 23, 2018 19:33:40 GMT
But they lack any long ranged weapons for space battles. That EMP weapon they used has a limited range (both the shuttle and Reaper were below the cloud line on that planet). So a fleet could pick them off easily at long range before they make it to any planet. Again, none that we know of. The Leviathans were able to rule the entire galaxy before they built the Reapers, so clearly they have capabilities we are not aware of. And that's not counting their controlled vassals. Since Bioware are so graciously not ever going to dive deeper into their lore, we could argue about this all day and may never actually find out what they were truly capable of. But if the military fleets were smart (and let's face it, they are pretty f**king stupid), they would focus with everything they got on the Leviathans.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 23, 2018 19:40:33 GMT
Yes. Exactly. They're pardoned for killing 200 trillion people! I'm not okay with that. I hope you are okay with Shepard being executed after doing Destroy then, since they also kill billions of beings like the Geth with Destroy. My Shepard and I are ok with choosing destroy. Regards to the geth. All my Shepard did was help the quarians finish the job plus she had no intention of letting the geth upload the code.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 23, 2018 19:41:57 GMT
We're well aware of the indoctrination artifacts and we could go out of our way to avoid them. Nah... Barely anyone knows about the Leviathans at all, let alone their indoctrination capabilities. Not true. Marines were transporting them to various places so that they could be used to take out Reapers. This was actually said in-game. That means Hackett, for sure, knew about it and Hackett survives the endings.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 23, 2018 19:45:22 GMT
Yes. Exactly. They're pardoned for killing 200 trillion people! I'm not okay with that. I hope you are okay with Shepard being executed after doing Destroy then, since they also kill billions of beings like the Geth with Destroy. Why would they execute Shepard? He's almost certainly going to be worshiped by most of the galaxy for stopping the Reaper threat. He did what was asked of him. The Reapers were stopped. As for geth, I doubt anyone actually considered them more than a potential threat. No one trusts AI. Not sure how you missed that in the entire trilogy. In fact, we even saw in the Citadel Archives that some peaceful AI (in the form of LOKI mechs) were gunned down before they even got the chance to meet the Council. Nah, no one will try him, let alone execute him, for their destruction.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2018 19:55:09 GMT
I hope you are okay with Shepard being executed after doing Destroy then, since they also kill billions of beings like the Geth with Destroy. Why would they execute Shepard? He's almost certainly going to be worshiped by most of the galaxy for stopping the Reaper threat. He did what was asked of him. The Reapers were stopped. As for geth, I doubt anyone actually considered them more than a potential threat. No one trusts AI. Not sure how you missed that in the entire trilogy. In fact, we even saw in the Citadel Archives that some peaceful AI (in the form of LOKI mechs) were gunned down before they even got the chance to meet the Council. Nah, no one will try him, let alone execute him, for their destruction. So when the Reapers commit genocide, they should be killed rather than pardoned. But when Shepard commits genocide, they shouldn't be killed but instead pardoned. That's awfully hypocritical of you.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 23, 2018 19:56:40 GMT
Why would they execute Shepard? He's almost certainly going to be worshiped by most of the galaxy for stopping the Reaper threat. He did what was asked of him. The Reapers were stopped. As for geth, I doubt anyone actually considered them more than a potential threat. No one trusts AI. Not sure how you missed that in the entire trilogy. In fact, we even saw in the Citadel Archives that some peaceful AI (in the form of LOKI mechs) were gunned down before they even got the chance to meet the Council. Nah, no one will try him, let alone execute him, for their destruction. So when the Reapers commit genocide, they should be killed rather than pardoned. But when Shepard commits genocide, they shouldn't be killed but instead pardoned. That's awfully hypocritical of you. I don't know. If we executed Nazis for their genocide are we then also killing those who did the executing? I think not.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2018 19:59:10 GMT
So when the Reapers commit genocide, they should be killed rather than pardoned. But when Shepard commits genocide, they shouldn't be killed but instead pardoned. That's awfully hypocritical of you. I don't know. If we executed Nazis for their genocide are we then also killing those who did the executing? I think not. That argument doesn't work since it is not just the Nazi's who committed the genocide being killed. It'd be like saying we killed all Germans for what the Nazis did, in which case then absolutely the people who did the killing should be killed as war criminals.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 23, 2018 20:03:01 GMT
I don't know. If we executed Nazis for their genocide are we then also killing those who did the executing? I think not. That argument doesn't work since it is not just the Nazi's who committed the genocide being killed. It'd be like saying we killed all Germans for what the Nazis did, in which case then absolutely the people who did the killing should be killed as war criminals. Reapers are war criminals. Geth aided and abetted. Absolute proof of that. No one would question that, even if some knew otherwise. As I said, people still, and probably always will, distrust AI. So, no, I think your argument doesn't hold up.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2018 20:07:11 GMT
That argument doesn't work since it is not just the Nazi's who committed the genocide being killed. It'd be like saying we killed all Germans for what the Nazis did, in which case then absolutely the people who did the killing should be killed as war criminals. Reapers are war criminals. Geth aided and abetted. Absolute proof of that. No one would question that, even if some knew otherwise. As I said, people still, and probably always will, distrust AI. So, no, I think your argument doesn't hold up. People of every race aided and abetted the Reapers. That's kind of the Reapers' MO. Should we kill all of humanity because of Cerberus for example? Some aliens still distrust humans after all.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 23, 2018 21:21:34 GMT
Reapers are war criminals. Geth aided and abetted. Absolute proof of that. No one would question that, even if some knew otherwise. As I said, people still, and probably always will, distrust AI. So, no, I think your argument doesn't hold up. People of every race aided and abetted the Reapers. That's kind of the Reapers' MO. Should we kill all of humanity because of Cerberus for example? Some aliens still distrust humans after all. They were indoctrinated. Their fate depends on what happens post-Reaper War. Does the indoctrination remain? Do they still try to help beings that no longer exist through sabotage or other means? If they do then, unfortunately, they'd have to go. It would be a sad state of affairs but what can you do when a bunch of indoctrinated people are a constant threat? I guess they could be locked up for the rest of their lives but to what end? You're being intentionally obtuse, here. You know the Reapers were evil. Anything that abets their continued existence is saying that they weren't all that wrong after all.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 23, 2018 21:42:06 GMT
Should we kill all of humanity because of Cerberus for example? Some aliens still distrust humans after all. Should we kill all the asari, though I don't have a problem with that, because they failed to reveal an artifact that could help against the reapers? People could use the excuse that they were working with the reapers causing them to not reveal the artifact earlier.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 23, 2018 21:47:02 GMT
People of every race aided and abetted the Reapers. That's kind of the Reapers' MO. Should we kill all of humanity because of Cerberus for example? Some aliens still distrust humans after all. They were indoctrinated. Their fate depends on what happens post-Reaper War. Does the indoctrination remain? Do they still try to help beings that no longer exist through sabotage or other means? If they do then, unfortunately, they'd have to go. It would be a sad state of affairs but what can you do when a bunch of indoctrinated people are a constant threat? I guess they could be locked up for the rest of their lives but to what end? You're being intentionally obtuse, here. You know the Reapers were evil. Anything that abets their continued existence is saying that they weren't all that wrong after all. In all seriousness, I don't think I am. I'm not talking about the Reapers, I'm talking about the collateral damage that can only be called genocide. And once again you are being hypocritical. It's fine kill all of the Geth for what an indoctrinated minority did, but it is not fine to kill all of humanity on what an indoctrinated minority did. So why is it fine for Shepard to commit genocide on a race that was helping them and most of whom were innocent? If you think being who commit genocide deserve death, then by your own argument Shepard deserves death if they choose Destroy. And no, not killing someone doesn't mean you don't think what they did was wrong. By that logic, everyone in prison is seen as innocent since they are still alive after their crimes rather than being executed.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 24, 2018 0:44:38 GMT
They were indoctrinated. Their fate depends on what happens post-Reaper War. Does the indoctrination remain? Do they still try to help beings that no longer exist through sabotage or other means? If they do then, unfortunately, they'd have to go. It would be a sad state of affairs but what can you do when a bunch of indoctrinated people are a constant threat? I guess they could be locked up for the rest of their lives but to what end? You're being intentionally obtuse, here. You know the Reapers were evil. Anything that abets their continued existence is saying that they weren't all that wrong after all. In all seriousness, I don't think I am. I'm not talking about the Reapers, I'm talking about the collateral damage that can only be called genocide. And once again you are being hypocritical. It's fine kill all of the Geth for what an indoctrinated minority did, but it is not fine to kill all of humanity on what an indoctrinated minority did. So why is it fine for Shepard to commit genocide on a race that was helping them and most of whom were innocent? If you think being who commit genocide deserve death, then by your own argument Shepard deserves death if they choose Destroy. And no, not killing someone doesn't mean you don't think what they did was wrong. By that logic, everyone in prison is seen as innocent since they are still alive after their crimes rather than being executed. www.nucleardarkness.org/hiroshima/
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 24, 2018 1:16:38 GMT
*snip* In all seriousness, I don't think I am. I'm not talking about the Reapers, I'm talking about the collateral damage that can only be called genocide. And once again you are being hypocritical. It's fine kill all of the Geth for what an indoctrinated minority did, but it is not fine to kill all of humanity on what an indoctrinated minority did. So why is it fine for Shepard to commit genocide on a race that was helping them and most of whom were innocent? If you think being who commit genocide deserve death, then by your own argument Shepard deserves death if they choose Destroy. And no, not killing someone doesn't mean you don't think what they did was wrong. By that logic, everyone in prison is seen as innocent since they are still alive after their crimes rather than being executed. www.nucleardarkness.org/hiroshima/What are you trying to say by referencing Hiroshima?
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 24, 2018 1:29:09 GMT
What are you trying to say by referencing Hiroshima? We blew up two major cities to stop Japan. It worked. How many innocents do you think died? Was America censured? Were the pilots of the Enola Gay arrested and executed? Were the people who issued the order executed? If you're going to say that killing the geth by choosing Destroy means Shepard should be tried and executed for genocide then you must also apply that same logic to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 24, 2018 1:43:23 GMT
What are you trying to say by referencing Hiroshima? We blew up two major cities to stop Japan. It worked. How many innocents do you think died? Was America censured? Were the pilots of the Enola Gay arrested and executed? Were the people who issued the order executed? If you're going to say that killing the geth by choosing Destroy means Shepard should be tried and executed for genocide then you must also apply that same logic to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ah, figured as much. Well, in my opinion yes absolutely those on the Allies side who committed war crimes should have been tried and executed as war criminals. So since you brought a The bombings up Curtis Lemay who decided to firebomb and later nuke Japanese cities should have for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people his orders murdered.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 24, 2018 1:45:56 GMT
We blew up two major cities to stop Japan. It worked. How many innocents do you think died? Was America censured? Were the pilots of the Enola Gay arrested and executed? Were the people who issued the order executed? If you're going to say that killing the geth by choosing Destroy means Shepard should be tried and executed for genocide then you must also apply that same logic to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ah, figured as much. Well, in my opinion yes absolutely those on the Allies side who committed war crimes should have been tried and executed as war criminals. So since you brought a The bombings up Curtis Lemay who decided to firebomb and later nuke Japanese cities should have for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people his orders murdered. But that's not what happened and it won't happen to Shepard, either.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Aug 24, 2018 1:48:05 GMT
Ah, figured as much. Well, in my opinion yes absolutely those on the Allies side who committed war crimes should have been tried and executed as war criminals. So since you brought a The bombings up Curtis Lemay who decided to firebomb and later nuke Japanese cities should have for the hundreds of thousands of innocent people his orders murdered. But that's not what happened and it won't happen to Shepard, either. I know. I never said it would happen but that by your argument that beings who commit genocide should be killed then you should want Shepard to be killed and the fact that you don’t made the argument seem hypocritical.
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Post by Ascend on Aug 24, 2018 1:54:37 GMT
This is going to beyond ridiculous. That it didn't happen doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened. And things are going in a direction that is more complicated than it needs to be. The history regarding the wars the world has been in, they have all been twisted. Don't want to drive this thread off-topic, but, if you really want the truth regarding wars, watch the following video in the spoiler tags, and you'll understand why comparing a scenario like the reapers is completely different compared to a Hiroshima. In fact, those are even more of an argument why some of these people require to be put away... Because of the manipulation of the masses, and the indifference to mass genocide.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 24, 2018 1:58:19 GMT
This is going to beyond ridiculous. That it didn't happen doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened. And things are going in a direction that is more complicated than it needs to be. The history regarding the wars the world has been in, they have all been twisted. Don't want to drive this thread off-topic, but, if you really want the truth regarding wars, watch the following video in the spoiler tags, and you'll understand why comparing a scenario like the reapers is completely different compared to a Hiroshima. In fact, those are even more of an argument why some of these people require to be put away... Because of the manipulation of the masses, and the indifference to mass genocide. The argument is that Shepard should be executed for allowing the geth to die by using Destroy, just as the Reapers were "executed" for their genocide. I was trying to make a point that we didn't execute the people behind the Hiroshima and Nagasaki and so we won't do that to Shepard.
As for beyond ridiculous...you'd better get used to it.
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