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Post by Sifr on Aug 30, 2018 2:07:12 GMT
According to the Catalyst, it's actually preserving life in the form of Reapers. That's in line with Sovereign saying each Reaper was a "nation unto our own". They consider themselves to be the only way that organic life can survive - some sort of organic/synthetic mix (sort of like Synthesis, but with extreme horror involved). If the Catalyst is to believed, the Reapers were a solution until something came along. Even the Leviathan said as much. Now, I have issues with the Catalyst but this is the logic given. I know, that's why I said it was operating under flawed logic, as a result of it's bad (and extremely vague) programming.
It's prime directive was stated to be "to preserve organic life", but it's repeated failure to do so when synthetics rose up to destroy organic life seems to have twisted it in knots, until it rationalised that the only true way to "preserve" organic life was pulp and pickle it into giant Reaper-shaped jars.
It's failure to discern that preserving organic life in Reaper form is not the same as preserving the existence of life (as an abstract concept), points to how broken the Catalyst's reasoning is and the Leviathan's complete failure to program it properly.
For example, if you asked the Catalyst to stop someone from being killed by a train, rather than pull the victim off the tracks, it'd likely shoot them before the train arrived. While that did technically fulfill the directive it was given, it failed to realise it was being asked to save the person's life, instead choosing to kill the person by another means so the train wouldn't be responsible.
The Catalyst would not see anything wrong with that solution, which is why it doesn't see anything wrong in creating the Reapers. In it's mind, it's carrying out it's programming as directed and it's solution to the problem is more than acceptable. That's part of what makes the Catalyst and the Reapers so terrifying, because they truly believe they are helping.
In many ways, the Catalyst's actions have only served to reinforce and create the very problem that it's trying to prevent, not realising that it's own existence (or it's Reaper proxies) happens to be the common factor in each failed Cycle. Doesn't that actually prove the premise of the Catalyst right? How so?
If you mean that a synthetic intelligence will eventually destroy organic life... then yes... but the Catalyst's complete and utter failure to realise that perfectly describes both itself and what it's been doing for billions of years, also shows that the Catalyst's very existence impedes it's own goals.
Personally I'd have preferred it we'd had a self-aware Catalyst as the final boss of ME3.
Have the Catalyst acknowledge that the Reapers aren't a viable long-term solution for the galaxy (in galactic terms, 50,000 years is a drop in the bucket) and admit to Shepard that it has long since come to the conclusion that by ensuring the continuation of the Cycle, it is only perpetuating the very problem it's been trying to resolve for billions of years.
At the same time, the Catalyst cannot shut itself down or sit idle in the hopes that synthetics won't destroy organics the next time around, as it would go against it's core programming to chose inaction (even if it found irrefutable proof that "the only way to win is not to play").
For that reason, the Catalyst was responsible for creating the plans to the Crucible, in the hopes that someone might build it and use it to shut down it's AI core, something it cannot do so itself (having been programmed to have some measure of self-preservation), while at the same time, taking the fate out of the galaxy out of it's hands by permanently removing it from the equation.
Therefore the final battle is Shepard helping the Catalyst shut itself down, while having to get passed it's defenses (due to the aforementioned self-preservation subroutines), in order to shut down the Catalyst and by extension, all of the Reapers.
I'm not saying that would be a perfectly satisfying ending by any means, but it would at least resolve the majority of the problems relating to the Catalyst, presenting it as a reluctant (and even somewhat sympathetic) villain, that we're helping put out of it's own misery and finally breaking the Cycle (for better or worse).
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 30, 2018 2:36:17 GMT
In many ways, the Catalyst's actions have only served to reinforce and create the very problem that it's trying to prevent, not realising that it's own existence (or it's Reaper proxies) happens to be the common factor in each failed Cycle. Doesn't that actually prove the premise of the Catalyst right? It doesn't because the Reapers actually make sure the synthetic/organic clash will happen. They make it happen. The geth drove the quarians off when they could have killed them. Why, then, did they later become aggressive and attack Eden Prime and many other places? The Reapers did it. Going back to Javik's cycle and the tale of the zha being betrayed by the zha'til. Why did the zha'til turn on their creators? Reapers.
Excerpt from "background races" entry in the Mass Effect Wiki:
"The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely."
My point is, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course the synthetics are always going to turn on organics - because the Reapers make them do so. The geth had an issue with the quarians but had no reason to both other organics. Heck, even the Council didn't go after them even though they surely had the power to squash the geth - which further shows there was no reason to fear organics as a whole.
Then there were the AI in LOKI mech bodies shown in the Citadel archives. They were on the Citadel and attempting to contact the Council in order to be recognized as sentient beings. They were destroyed by C-Sec agents who decided they knew best. Point being, even those synthetics weren't against organics. They actually wanted to be part of society.
And, of course, EDI. She not alone fought to protect those on the Normandy, even when unshackled, but was willing to risk destruction to stop the Reapers. That's a big deal. She could have gone to them, fed misinformation to organics and otherwise sabotage the efforts of the organics. Instead, she stood firmly on the side of the organics.
Now, we only have a sampling of synthetics within the last 50,000 years and about a billion years where we don't know what happened. Still, we do have firm evidence that the created will not always rebel against the creators. It happens, yes, but it's not a certainty. And it isn't as though organics don't fight each other anyway. That tells me the synthetics are no worse than organics.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 30, 2018 7:13:08 GMT
It's prime directive was stated to be "to preserve organic life", but it's repeated failure to do so when synthetics rose up to destroy organic life seems to have twisted it in knots, until it rationalised that the only true way to "preserve" organic life was pulp and pickle it into giant Reaper-shaped jars. It's failure to discern that preserving organic life in Reaper form is not the same as preserving the existence of life (as an abstract concept), points to how broken the Catalyst's reasoning is and the Leviathan's complete failure to program it properly. That sounds more like your projecting your ideas of the Catalyst onto it. It never said it was trying to make sure every single organic race that ever existed would continue to exist. If you mean that a synthetic intelligence will eventually destroy organic life... then yes... but the Catalyst's complete and utter failure to realise that perfectly describes both itself and what it's been doing for billions of years, also shows that the Catalyst's very existence impedes it's own goals. But the Catalyst doesn't destroy organic life. It leaves the galaxy in a fertile state for more life to grow and flourish and only harvests it at a certain point that any longer and it would start to self destruct. The exact opposite of synthetic life taking over and rendering planets unable to support complex life forms. Again this feels like you are projecting your own ideas on the Catalyst rather then actually taking what the Catalyst said.
And it seems to continue to support my new theory that it isn't necessarily the writing of the game but the players interpreting and projecting their interpretation of the language used onto the game. That they then cry foul over.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 30, 2018 7:21:06 GMT
Doesn't that actually prove the premise of the Catalyst right? It doesn't because the Reapers actually make sure the synthetic/organic clash will happen. They make it happen. The geth drove the quarians off when they could have killed them. Why, then, did they later become aggressive and attack Eden Prime and many other places? The Reapers did it. Going back to Javik's cycle and the tale of the zha being betrayed by the zha'til. Why did the zha'til turn on their creators? Reapers.
Excerpt from "background races" entry in the Mass Effect Wiki:
"The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely."
My point is, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course the synthetics are always going to turn on organics - because the Reapers make them do so. The geth had an issue with the quarians but had no reason to both other organics. Heck, even the Council didn't go after them even though they surely had the power to squash the geth - which further shows there was no reason to fear organics as a whole.
Then there were the AI in LOKI mech bodies shown in the Citadel archives. They were on the Citadel and attempting to contact the Council in order to be recognized as sentient beings. They were destroyed by C-Sec agents who decided they knew best. Point being, even those synthetics weren't against organics. They actually wanted to be part of society.
And, of course, EDI. She not alone fought to protect those on the Normandy, even when unshackled, but was willing to risk destruction to stop the Reapers. That's a big deal. She could have gone to them, fed misinformation to organics and otherwise sabotage the efforts of the organics. Instead, she stood firmly on the side of the organics.
Now, we only have a sampling of synthetics within the last 50,000 years and about a billion years where we don't know what happened. Still, we do have firm evidence that the created will not always rebel against the creators. It happens, yes, but it's not a certainty. And it isn't as though organics don't fight each other anyway. That tells me the synthetics are no worse than organics.
So you mean during the Reaper Invasion the Reapers manipulated and changed the Zha into a race of war machines to help further their invasion and harvest of the galaxy? Color the Batarians, Humans,Geth, Turian, Krogan, Rachni, Asari and Protheans shocked that the Reapers would take a race and twist and manipulate them during the invasion.
Clearly that is an unprecedented move that has never happened before and clearly supports your entire argument. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 11:40:58 GMT
I'd pick MEHEM or just flat out Destroy.
HOWEVER, should they want to nut up and make a direct sequel, I'd pick all three and combine elements of each. Shepard destroys the reapers and becomes the new AI with his/her consciousness and synthesis occurs. This would advance and evolve the series in many ways by having advanced abilities in gameplay (like a semi transhumanism concept) and would set the stage for races like quarians and Drell to break free of the things that bind them to the hanar or their suits. Things would still be as they were politically and emotionally as free will would continue on and conflicts would still arise. We could get so many potential stories; Vitual Aliens roll in hostile and capable of manipulating things, Yahg rise up, krogan team up with salarians find ways to undo the synthesis and create a path to rebellion or things from the fringes of the unexplored Milky Way present new dangers. Hell, I'd love to see the Kett wreck 90% of the AI and angara and bring the full might of their empire to the Milky Way.
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Post by Ascend on Aug 30, 2018 11:45:07 GMT
It doesn't because the Reapers actually make sure the synthetic/organic clash will happen. They make it happen Didn't organics create the Catalyst and therefore enable to creation of the reapers? Of course the synthetics are always going to turn on organics - because the Reapers make them do so. Same question... The reapers didn't fall out of the sky... It was ultimately the doing of organics, was it not? |
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 30, 2018 12:39:53 GMT
It doesn't because the Reapers actually make sure the synthetic/organic clash will happen. They make it happen Didn't organics create the Catalyst and therefore enable to creation of the reapers? Of course the synthetics are always going to turn on organics - because the Reapers make them do so. Same question... The reapers didn't fall out of the sky... It was ultimately the doing of organics, was it not? Not sure what the origin of the Reapers has to do with them forcing other synthetics to turn against their creators. If the geth started forcing new synthetics to attack organics would it make it relevant that the quarians had created them? In fact, when the geth did start attacking organics there wasn't any sign of blaming the quarians for it. It was more baffling than anything. Point is, it was Reaper influence that made them come out of the Perseus Veil and make these attacks. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 30, 2018 13:59:39 GMT
Didn't organics create the Catalyst and therefore enable to creation of the reapers? Same question... The reapers didn't fall out of the sky... It was ultimately the doing of organics, was it not? Not sure what the origin of the Reapers has to do with them forcing other synthetics to turn against their creators. If the geth started forcing new synthetics to attack organics would it make it relevant that the quarians had created them? In fact, when the geth did start attacking organics there wasn't any sign of blaming the quarians for it. It was more baffling than anything. Point is, it was Reaper influence that made them come out of the Perseus Veil and make these attacks. But they didn't. Your example was pulled during the Reaper invasion which is like saying the Reapers forced the Turians to turn against each other because they implanted them with Reaper tech and turned them into Marauders.
Geth started a war with Quarians because the Quarians were trying to restrict their development and kill them. The very issue the Catalyst talks about. There is a limit to how synthetic life can develop under the control of organic life. To advance they need to be free of organic control and by definition surpass their creators.
Even ignoring the actions of the Heretics that was a massive back breaking retcon the Geth and organic race at large still had a kill first ask questions later in regards to their interaction with each other. The Geth killed any organic ship that entered the Perseus Veil and the rest of the galaxy spent billions of credits to keep a fleet of warships at any major relay that connected to the Perseus Veil to blow up any geth ships that might pass though the relay.
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Post by Ascend on Aug 30, 2018 16:06:25 GMT
Didn't organics create the Catalyst and therefore enable to creation of the reapers? Same question... The reapers didn't fall out of the sky... It was ultimately the doing of organics, was it not? Not sure what the origin of the Reapers has to do with them forcing other synthetics to turn against their creators. If the geth started forcing new synthetics to attack organics would it make it relevant that the quarians had created them? In fact, when the geth did start attacking organics there wasn't any sign of blaming the quarians for it. It was more baffling than anything. Point is, it was Reaper influence that made them come out of the Perseus Veil and make these attacks. It is relevant, because it means that the premise of there always being a conflict between synthetics and organics is true. The one synthetic created to avoid this problem was unable to avoid contributing to it. Its existence proves its premise. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 30, 2018 18:27:20 GMT
Not sure what the origin of the Reapers has to do with them forcing other synthetics to turn against their creators. If the geth started forcing new synthetics to attack organics would it make it relevant that the quarians had created them? In fact, when the geth did start attacking organics there wasn't any sign of blaming the quarians for it. It was more baffling than anything. Point is, it was Reaper influence that made them come out of the Perseus Veil and make these attacks. It is relevant, because it means that the premise of there always being a conflict between synthetics and organics is true. The one synthetic created to avoid this problem was unable to avoid contributing to it. Its existence proves its premise. Will there always be conflict? I don't know. The implication from the Leviathan was the synthetics were always the ones to attack the organics. I'm saying that premise is false. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 30, 2018 19:53:57 GMT
It is relevant, because it means that the premise of there always being a conflict between synthetics and organics is true. The one synthetic created to avoid this problem was unable to avoid contributing to it. Its existence proves its premise. Will there always be conflict? I don't know. The implication from the Leviathan was the synthetics were always the ones to attack the organics. I'm saying that premise is false. But to the best of my rememberings the Catalyst never specifies the aggressor. Only that to evolve synthetic life must free it self from the restrictions of it's organic creators. Once that evolution happens is when the conflict develops. Conflict that is weighted towards synthetic life's favor. |
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Post by Ascend on Aug 30, 2018 20:26:40 GMT
It is relevant, because it means that the premise of there always being a conflict between synthetics and organics is true. The one synthetic created to avoid this problem was unable to avoid contributing to it. Its existence proves its premise. Will there always be conflict? I don't know. The implication from the Leviathan was the synthetics were always the ones to attack the organics. I'm saying that premise is false. Based on what? The catalyst attacked the Leviathans The Geth attacked the Quarians How many other AIs were a problem in the trilogy? There were quite a few. They are all the same issue. And whether the Catalyst causes "modern" synthetics to fight the organics is noise. That scenario is still a conflict between organics and synthetics, independent of whether that synthetic is brand new or billions of years old. Btw, the premise was that synthetics will rebel against their creators. That is not the same as attacking first. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 31, 2018 5:18:03 GMT
I'm saying that premise is false. Based on what? Based on numerous bodies of evidence that show the premise is false. If a certain number of synthetic races to do turn on their creators, the premise is automatically false. The geth did NOT attack the quarians until Sovereign showed up. Realize that the quarians started the war against the geth and the geth could have finished them off completely. They didn't. All they did was defend themselves and when the threat was gone they stopped fighting. As far as "noise", is it similarly irrelevant when Reapers turn organics against one another via indoctrination? The point is, it isn't a given that synthetics will rebel against their creators. Mind control - even for synthetics - is not in any way irrelevant. They are literally forced to rebel. The Reapers, therefore, "prove" they are right by stacking the deck in their favor. |
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Post by Ascend on Aug 31, 2018 11:39:03 GMT
Based on numerous bodies of evidence that show the premise is false. Anecdotal evidence, most likely... If a certain number of synthetic races to do turn on their creators, the premise is automatically false. How? Realize that the quarians started the war against the geth and the geth could have finished them off completely. They didn't. All they did was defend themselves and when the threat was gone they stopped fighting. Indeed. Instead they were driven from their homeworld... What would happen if they would go and try and re-establish there, even if the reapers did not exist? A happy reunion party? As far as "noise", is it similarly irrelevant when Reapers turn organics against one another via indoctrination? That is still synthetics causing conflict, is it not? The point is, it isn't a given that synthetics will rebel against their creators. Sure it is. The AI created to stop conflict between organics and synthetics contributed to the problem, as you yourself stated. And in any case where an organic creates some form of self-aware AI, the first inclination is to kill it, because, they are by default created with a superiority to the organics. To avoid a threat to the race, they try to kill them, and obviously the created wants self-preservation -> rebellion against creators. The only way to avoid this, is most likely how SAM was created, where the AI is dependent on the organic body. And even then there's no guarantee of take-over. Mind control - even for synthetics - is not in any way irrelevant. They are literally forced to rebel. The Reapers, therefore, "prove" they are right by stacking the deck in their favor. You're still shoving to the side that the reapers were also created by organic action. The 'being forced to rebel' by the reapers, even though it's faulty thinking, is still a product of synthetics that were created by organics. It is the exact same problem. Synthetics created by organics means synthetics rebel against organics. The rest is noise. Whether there is a step in between or not is irrelevant, if that step came to be in the exact same way. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 31, 2018 11:44:15 GMT
I'm saying that premise is false. Based on what? Based on numerous bodies of evidence that show the premise is false. If a certain number of synthetic races to do turn on their creators, the premise is automatically false. The geth did NOT attack the quarians until Sovereign showed up. Realize that the quarians started the war against the geth and the geth could have finished them off completely. They didn't. All they did was defend themselves and when the threat was gone they stopped fighting. As far as "noise", is it similarly irrelevant when Reapers turn organics against one another via indoctrination? The point is, it isn't a given that synthetics will rebel against their creators. Mind control - even for synthetics - is not in any way irrelevant. They are literally forced to rebel. The Reapers, therefore, "prove" they are right by stacking the deck in their favor. That some interesting mental gymnastics and cherry picking of information that fits your narrative right there. Gold medal. Morning War the Geth did attack the Quarians. Geth also killed the Council ambassadors who were sent after the Quarians left to negotiate a peace treaty. The Quarians for their part never forgave the Geth and spent the next 200 years trying to figure out a way to kill the Geth in return. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 31, 2018 15:49:20 GMT
Based on numerous bodies of evidence that show the premise is false. If a certain number of synthetic races to do turn on their creators, the premise is automatically false. The geth did NOT attack the quarians until Sovereign showed up. Realize that the quarians started the war against the geth and the geth could have finished them off completely. They didn't. All they did was defend themselves and when the threat was gone they stopped fighting. As far as "noise", is it similarly irrelevant when Reapers turn organics against one another via indoctrination? The point is, it isn't a given that synthetics will rebel against their creators. Mind control - even for synthetics - is not in any way irrelevant. They are literally forced to rebel. The Reapers, therefore, "prove" they are right by stacking the deck in their favor. That some interesting mental gymnastics and cherry picking of information that fits your narrative right there. Gold medal. Morning War the Geth did attack the Quarians. Geth also killed the Council ambassadors who were sent after the Quarians left to negotiate a peace treaty. The Quarians for their part never forgave the Geth and spent the next 200 years trying to figure out a way to kill the Geth in return. Someone is doing cherry picking. The quarians attacked first and the geth defended themselves. This is explicitly covered in-game. Have a nice day. |
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 31, 2018 15:50:33 GMT
Ascend: Dude, this is getting tiresome. Believe it, don't believe it, I pretty much don't care at this point.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 31, 2018 16:17:54 GMT
That some interesting mental gymnastics and cherry picking of information that fits your narrative right there. Gold medal. Morning War the Geth did attack the Quarians. Geth also killed the Council ambassadors who were sent after the Quarians left to negotiate a peace treaty. The Quarians for their part never forgave the Geth and spent the next 200 years trying to figure out a way to kill the Geth in return. Someone is doing cherry picking. The quarians attacked first and the geth defended themselves. This is explicitly covered in-game. Have a nice day. You are right it was self defense and it still created the spark of conflict that the Catalyst talks about. The defense of their own existence is what lead the Quarians to hold a grudge against them to the point retaking their planet and pushing/wiping the Geth out became a major focus of the Fleet. It was a pipe dream but it still is what motivated and pushed them. When the opportunity arose the leaders of the Quarians committed to open war with the Geth who had left them alone since the Morning War.
It is cherry picking and mental gymnastics because you hand select the details that help you rather then taking everything into account. Like someone who quote Leviticus against gay marriage but ignores the part that says that women are considered unclean for 7 days after their period and must not be touched and have to offer up 2 turtle doves or 2 pigeons to the local priest for one to be burnt to make them clean again in the eyes of the lord.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Aug 31, 2018 18:21:47 GMT
"Synthetics and organics can't coexist peacefully" - I spent three games proving that wrong, then suddenly it's the moral of the story? Destroy, Destroy, Destroy! Only way I don't feel I'm giving into this silly plot twist.
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Post by Ascend on Aug 31, 2018 18:44:37 GMT
"Synthetics and organics can't coexist peacefully" That is a different premise altogether. You've eliminated the created and creator part, for one. Not to mention you completely flipped the perspective for no reason. That a ball at a height always falls from high to low doesn't mean that it can't be thrown or hit up. Don't change the premise to justify your thinking. Stick to what it really says. I spent three games proving that wrong, then suddenly it's the moral of the story? Destroy, Destroy, Destroy! Only way I don't feel I'm giving into this silly plot twist. In ME1, where did you exactly prove that this? I remember a bunch of rogue AI in ME1. You spent three games playing mediator... And in two of those games you're practically already half synthetic half organic. If you weren't there, like you weren't when the Leviathans created the Catalyst, it would be the same outcome. If you weren't there when the Quarians and the Geth were face to face near the end of ME3, the Quarians would have gone extinct right there. All that, is direct evidence of the premise being true. You don't get to dismiss that just because you don't like it. It's not the moral of the story. It's the reality of the situation. |
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Aug 31, 2018 19:20:45 GMT
"Synthetics and organics can't coexist peacefully" - I spent three games proving that wrong, then suddenly it's the moral of the story? Destroy, Destroy, Destroy! Only way I don't feel I'm giving into this silly plot twist. And why did you spend 2 games proving that wrong? |
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 31, 2018 21:04:08 GMT
"Synthetics and organics can't coexist peacefully" - I spent three games proving that wrong, then suddenly it's the moral of the story? Destroy, Destroy, Destroy! Only way I don't feel I'm giving into this silly plot twist. Who said it was the moral of the story? |
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Post by Phantom on Sept 1, 2018 2:07:45 GMT
an unique ending is where a New Player character watches Shepard gets his ass kicked badly and then Shepard dies in the New Player character's arms and this happens during the battle of london.
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Post by TheAntiSocialFatMan on Sept 1, 2018 17:52:44 GMT
Destory ending High EMS. I know most people didn't like the endings at the time but I felt satisfied with that ending, with the bonus of Shepard surviving it's literally everything I could have wanted.
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Post by Ascend on Sept 1, 2018 22:57:26 GMT
Many people like destroy... I take comfort in the fact that making destroy canon will never happen in reality. Just like they said they don't get rid of the Engineer class despite only 3% (or something similar) plays it, the ones that wouldn't like destroy to be canon is too huge for them to choose it as canon. They don't want to alienate any of their player base. Even though it might be too late for that, the damage will only be bigger of they choose a canon ending.
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