legbamel
N3
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Post by legbamel on Mar 22, 2018 16:46:21 GMT
How about every single female police officer / agent / lawyer / hacker etc. ever in movies and TV? In their twenties, anorectic and with spaghetti arms, they're bossing confidently around (now compare that to how a real woman in her 20's speak and behave). Typically they're of senior rank as well (how the hell did that happen?) and have mature men listening and obeying. And of course they have no problems manhandling and taking down a male in unarmed combat. Oooh no, they're soo dangerous. This is probably women of real experience in their 30's and 40's. They're not anorectic, but stoutly built and presumably trained. But it's still the reality, unfortunately for them. So how can you say there have ever been any action role for a woman that's not a Mary Sue? That is casting, not character. The actress's appearance and its effect on you ability to suspend disbelief aren't valid criticisms of a how a character's story arc is written. That's like me claiming all female cops are Sues because wardrobe puts them in tight skirts and heels for Chase scenes.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 22, 2018 17:00:04 GMT
LoLfeminism
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Post by ruggly on Mar 22, 2018 17:09:58 GMT
xenophobic Luddite assholes? Channelling a bit of auld wulf there.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2018 17:13:12 GMT
xenophobic Luddite assholes? Channelling a bit of auld wulf there. Hoo boy that takes me back.
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ruggly
N3
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Post by ruggly on Mar 22, 2018 17:23:03 GMT
Channelling a bit of auld wulf there. Hoo boy that takes me back. Back when off topic was entertaining.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 17:24:01 GMT
Let's be honest here. If anyone is going to create world-ending technology that runs amok and kills us all, it's going to be a dude like Ted Faro. Anyhoo, don't care. Horizon Zero Dawn is damn good gaming. But, what would be your take on the Nora, a matriarchal society filled with xenophobic Luddite assholes? Aloy doesn't meet the definition of a sue anyway. To be a Sue you have to be good at things for no particular reason. She's really good at killing stuff, but then her entire childhood was essentially being trained specifically to be a warrior by a (notably not weak) father figure, a guy who took so many levels in badass that he somehow managed to survive being declared a Legion of the Dead style suicide berserker for the most feared and barbaric tribe in the game world.
Has weaknesses too, she's whiny, a bit immature and socially dull, and extremely naïve about people. The last one frequently gets her manipulated into doing the bidding of craftier characters in the story/world or getting entrapped in their schemes (which she usually gets out of by doing the thing she's actually good at i.e. putting lots of holes in things), most of all by the Machiavellian Sylens, who basically drives the entire plot from 1/3 of the game in and onward while Aloy's takes the role of a puppet he uses to murder everyone in the way of his goals.
(he's also more intelligent even though she's cloned from female Einstein, though technically everyone in the story apparently is descended from the genetic material of smart people which kind of explains why some of them often aren't as dumb about their world or its technology as their primitive state would suggest)
Game's definitely a little feminist, though it subverts this in a few places (the most andvanced and successful tribe in the game world is patriarchial while the female led Nora are stone age savages). I'd say it has collectivist themes too (the real antagonist is the epitome of individual self interest, while the hero is selfless, anti-tribal and socially oriented. Plus the hair and she's nicknamed Red!)
Rey's a Sue, though. Not to fanfiction levels but way too many of her impressive abilities are just handwaved as "The Force" or whatever. Of course, this isn't new to Star Wars, Luke was too until RotJ, in particular the first movie with him going from random farm boy to the galaxy's most ace fighter pilot (the rebels literally would have all died had not Luke showed up at last second, jumped into one of their X-Wings like it was nothing, and instantly been better at it than all of their veteran pilots, who despite some years of experience managed to all get shot or crash into the Death Star), and being a better soldier than supposedly well trained (according to Kenobi) stormtroopers after literally 2 days training (not even on the right weapon) of riding around with an old hobo and a criminal fighting against a floating ball
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 22, 2018 17:44:31 GMT
But, what would be your take on the Nora, a matriarchal society filled with xenophobic Luddite assholes? Aloy doesn't meet the definition of a sue anyway. To be a Sue you have to be good at things for no particular reason. She's really good at killing stuff, but then her entire childhood was essentially being trained specifically to be a warrior by a (notably not weak) father figure, a guy who took so many levels in badass that he somehow managed to survive being declared a Legion of the Dead style suicide berserker for the most feared and barbaric tribe in the game world.
Has weaknesses too, she's whiny, a bit immature and socially handicapped, and extremely naïve about people. The last one frequently gets her manipulated into doing the bidding of craftier characters in the story/world or getting entrapped in their schemes (which she usually gets out of by doing the thing she suggest)
Game's definitely a little feminist, though it subverts this in a few places (the most andvanced and successful tribe in the game world is patriarchial while the female led Nora are stone age savages). I'd say it has collectivist themes too (the real antagonist is the epitome of self interest, while the hero is selfless, anti-tribal and socially oriented towards righting everyone else's wrongs and achieving justice like some social worker gone postal. Plus the hair and she's nicknamed Red!)
Rey's a Sue, though. Not to fanfiction levels but way too many of her impressive abilities are just handwaved as "The Force" or whatever. Of course, this isn't new to Star Wars, Luke was too until RotJ, in particular the first movie with him going from random farm boy to the galaxy's most ace fighter pilot (the rebels literally would have all died had not Luke showed up at last second, jumped into one of their X-Wings like it was nothing, and instantly been better at it than all of their veteran pilots, who despite some years of experience managed to all get shot or crash into the Death Star), and being a better soldier than supposedly well trained (according to Kenobi) stormtroopers after literally 2 days training (not even on the right weapon) of riding around with an old hobo and a criminal fighting against a floating ball
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 22, 2018 17:45:47 GMT
You know what, OP - I don't care. Some characters are too flawless to be interesting, others are interesting in spite of being largely flawless. I don't think there exists a character type which is by definition illegitimate. There may be types who are annoying to most recipients, but even those may be appreciated by some. Blatant wish-fulfilment through and in fiction is not, in itself, illegitimate. The worst you can say about such characters is that they tend to be boring (and not even that's without exception), but they're not alone in that. BTW, since I tend to dislike some key features of the Star Wars universe, I haven't watched The Force Awakens yet, but I have seen Rei mentioned in too many extremely critical posts, here and in other places. It seems like an anti-hype of epic proportions, which means I'm actually predisposed to think more positively of her. It would be hard to be as bad as Anakin Skywalker from episodes 1-3 anyway. I think the main female characters of both the 'Twilight' franchise and 'Fifty Shades of Grey' could be construed as Mary-Sue characters. To say nothing of the lead male characters they purportedly center their lives around. I've seen nothing but near-universal criticism of both. And it's completely warranted.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 22, 2018 17:47:02 GMT
Hoo boy that takes me back. Back when off topic was entertaining. I'm nostalgic just thinking about it. Now it's just a bunch of assholes (myself included.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 18:06:28 GMT
Aloy doesn't meet the definition of a sue anyway. To be a Sue you have to be good at things for no particular reason. She's really good at killing stuff, but then her entire childhood was essentially being trained specifically to be a warrior by a (notably not weak) father figure, a guy who took so many levels in badass that he somehow managed to survive being declared a Legion of the Dead style suicide berserker for the most feared and barbaric tribe in the game world.
Has weaknesses too, she's whiny, a bit immature and socially handicapped, and extremely naïve about people. The last one frequently gets her manipulated into doing the bidding of craftier characters in the story/world or getting entrapped in their schemes (which she usually gets out of by doing the thing she suggest)
Game's definitely a little feminist, though it subverts this in a few places (the most andvanced and successful tribe in the game world is patriarchial while the female led Nora are stone age savages). I'd say it has collectivist themes too (the real antagonist is the epitome of self interest, while the hero is selfless, anti-tribal and socially oriented towards righting everyone else's wrongs and achieving justice like some social worker gone postal. Plus the hair and she's nicknamed Red!)
Rey's a Sue, though. Not to fanfiction levels but way too many of her impressive abilities are just handwaved as "The Force" or whatever. Of course, this isn't new to Star Wars, Luke was too until RotJ, in particular the first movie with him going from random farm boy to the galaxy's most ace fighter pilot (the rebels literally would have all died had not Luke showed up at last second, jumped into one of their X-Wings like it was nothing, and instantly been better at it than all of their veteran pilots, who despite some years of experience managed to all get shot or crash into the Death Star), and being a better soldier than supposedly well trained (according to Kenobi) stormtroopers after literally 2 days training (not even on the right weapon) of riding around with an old hobo and a criminal fighting against a floating ball Bai
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 22, 2018 18:24:20 GMT
Of course, this isn't new to Star Wars, Luke was too until RotJ, in particular the first movie with him going from random farm boy to the galaxy's most ace fighter pilot (the rebels literally would have all died had not Luke showed up at last second, jumped into one of their X-Wings like it was nothing, and instantly been better at it than all of their veteran pilots, who despite some years of experience managed to all get shot or crash into the Death Star), and being a better soldier than supposedly well trained (according to Kenobi) stormtroopers after literally 2 days training (not even on the right weapon) of riding around with an old hobo and a criminal fighting against a floating ball Wow, the Soviet bootleg of A New Hope must be pretty wild. Weird that they'd cut out such a random scene like Vader being right about to shoot Luke down with about as much ease as he shot anyone, before being blindsided by that (smooth) "criminal". Luke was a noob in Ep4 and a trained noob in Ep5. 404 Sue not found.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 22, 2018 19:09:26 GMT
Of course, this isn't new to Star Wars, Luke was too until RotJ, in particular the first movie with him going from random farm boy to the galaxy's most ace fighter pilot (the rebels literally would have all died had not Luke showed up at last second, jumped into one of their X-Wings like it was nothing, and instantly been better at it than all of their veteran pilots, who despite some years of experience managed to all get shot or crash into the Death Star), and being a better soldier than supposedly well trained (according to Kenobi) stormtroopers after literally 2 days training (not even on the right weapon) of riding around with an old hobo and a criminal fighting against a floating ball Wow, the Soviet bootleg of A New Hope must be pretty wild. Weird that they'd cut out such a random scene like Vader being right about to shoot Luke down with about as much ease as he shot anyone, before being blindsided by that (smooth) "criminal". Luke was a noob in Ep4 and a trained noob in Ep5. 404 Sue not found. In all honesty, I can see both arguments here. Luke was meant to be an escapist character, an everyday boy/young man who gets the call to adventure (and requisite hometown (or homestead in his case) destruction,) and goes off to become a big hero with special powers and a special destiny, complete with space ships, a beautiful woman, defeating evil, etc. Of course, Lucas (and others) turned a lot of those tropes on their heads (i.e., said special destiny Luke finds comes with suffering, said destiny doesn't always save him when shit hits the fan after his own ego gets the better of him, said beautiful woman ends up being his long-lost sister.)
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Post by o Ventus on Mar 22, 2018 19:14:47 GMT
I have to agree. Almost all female characters leads in video games are Mary Sues. Look at Ms. Pac-man for crying out loud! She can eat without fear of weight gain and if she eats the right food she can consume her patriarchal opponents. Did you just assume their ectoplasmic gender?? Except for Pinky, the ghosts are actually all male.
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Post by arvaarad on Mar 22, 2018 19:16:03 GMT
Let's be honest here. If anyone is going to create world-ending technology that runs amok and kills us all, it's going to be a dude like Ted Faro. Anyhoo, don't care. Horizon Zero Dawn is damn good gaming. But, what would be your take on the Nora, a matriarchal society filled with xenophobic Luddite assholes? Aloy doesn't meet the definition of a sue anyway. To be a Sue you have to be good at things for no particular reason. She's really good at killing stuff, but then her entire childhood was essentially being trained specifically to be a warrior by a (notably not weak) father figure, a guy who took so many levels in badass that he somehow managed to survive being declared a Legion of the Dead style suicide berserker for the most feared and barbaric tribe in the game world.
Has weaknesses too, she's whiny, a bit immature and socially dull, and extremely naïve about people. The last one frequently gets her manipulated into doing the bidding of craftier characters in the story/world or getting entrapped in their schemes (which she usually gets out of by doing the thing she's actually good at i.e. putting lots of holes in things), most of all by the transhuman Machiavelli Sylens, who basically drives the entire plot from 1/3 of the game in and onward while Aloy's takes the role of a puppet he uses to murder everyone in the way of his goals.
(he's also more intelligent even though she's cloned from female Einstein, though technically everyone in the story apparently is descended from the genetic material of smart people which kind of explains why some of them often aren't as dumb about their world or its technology as their primitive state would suggest)
Game's definitely a little feminist, though it subverts this in a few places (the most andvanced and successful tribe in the game world is patriarchial while the female led Nora are stone age savages). I'd say it has collectivist themes too (the real antagonist is the epitome of self interest, while the hero is selfless, anti-tribal and socially oriented towards righting everyone else's wrongs and achieving justice like some social worker gone postal. Plus the hair and she's nicknamed Red!)
Rey's a Sue, though. Not to fanfiction levels but way too many of her impressive abilities are just handwaved as "The Force" or whatever. Of course, this isn't new to Star Wars, Luke was too until RotJ, in particular the first movie with him going from random farm boy to the galaxy's most ace fighter pilot (the rebels literally would have all died had not Luke showed up at last second, jumped into one of their X-Wings like it was nothing, and instantly been better at it than all of their veteran pilots, who despite some years of experience managed to all get shot or crash into the Death Star), and being a better soldier than supposedly well trained (according to Kenobi) stormtroopers after literally 2 days training (not even on the right weapon) of riding around with an old hobo and a criminal fighting against a floating ball Besides the Luke comparison, isn’t it also implied that she’s cheating? She had pretty much 0 Force powers until Kylo fucked up and got too distracted while reading her mind, letting her access not only his thoughts, but a bunch of his training as well. Like literally, he’s just looking for a damn map and instead he goes on a merry detour through islands and oceans and his own daddy/grandaddy issues. Then when she starts getting some real training, she’s all “lalalala darkness time, also I’m gonna always be angry when I fight... this is how you’re supposed to access the Force, right?” because she’s cribbed all her notes off the bad guy’s brain.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 22, 2018 19:16:48 GMT
In my opinion the term Mary Sue is over used and generalized to the point of absurdity and meaninglessness.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 22, 2018 19:25:58 GMT
In all honesty, I can see both arguments here. Luke was meant to be an escapist character, an everyday boy/young man who gets the call to adventure (and requisite hometown (or homestead in his case) destruction,) and goes off to become a big hero with special powers and a special destiny, complete with space ships, a beautiful woman, defeating evil, etc. Of course, Lucas (and others) turned a lot of those tropes on their heads (i.e., said special destiny Luke finds comes with suffering, said destiny doesn't always save him when shit hits the fan after his own ego gets the better of him, said beautiful woman ends up being his long-lost sister.) Escapist =/= Sue. Luke went on that hero's journey, but the movies were about him actually being on the journey. He doesn't start out flawless, universally liked, or an insta-expert at any given challenge in any way. And for a good chunk of it (Ep4 in particular) he's kind of out of his element, just trying to roll with the punches. He has to be, he's the audience surrogate, the character we're supposed to relate to and be beside while this world is explained to us. But that is the line that often gets crossed when heading into Sue territory, going from surrogate to stand-in. The sense of wish-fulfillment for the former happens in our minds as we view the story for the former, whereas the latter changes the story itself by forcing itself onto it. Did you just assume their ectoplasmic gender?? Except for Pinky, the ghosts are actually all male. Sure, go ahead and put a box around them. Bigot.
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Post by mousestalker on Mar 22, 2018 19:29:22 GMT
Back when off topic was entertaining. I'm nostalgic just thinking about it. Now it's just a bunch of assholes (myself included.) Hey!!!!
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2018 20:20:54 GMT
You know what, OP - I don't care. Some characters are too flawless to be interesting, others are interesting in spite of being largely flawless. I don't think there exists a character type which is by definition illegitimate. There may be types who are annoying to most recipients, but even those may be appreciated by some. Blatant wish-fulfilment through and in fiction is not, in itself, illegitimate. The worst you can say about such characters is that they tend to be boring (and not even that's without exception), but they're not alone in that. BTW, since I tend to dislike some key features of the Star Wars universe, I haven't watched The Force Awakens yet, but I have seen Rei mentioned in too many extremely critical posts, here and in other places. It seems like an anti-hype of epic proportions, which means I'm actually predisposed to think more positively of her. It would be hard to be as bad as Anakin Skywalker from episodes 1-3 anyway. I think the main female characters of both the 'Twilight' franchise and 'Fifty Shades of Grey' could be construed as Mary-Sue characters. To say nothing of the lead male characters they purportedly center their lives around. I've seen nothing but near-universal criticism of both. And it's completely warranted. I remember reading an amusing bit on The Oatmeal about this. Bella is essentially an avatar for the reader/viewer, and is really nothing more than a pair of pants for them to immerse themselves and be swooned over by glittervamps and dog people.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 22, 2018 20:38:03 GMT
I think the main female characters of both the 'Twilight' franchise and 'Fifty Shades of Grey' could be construed as Mary-Sue characters. To say nothing of the lead male characters they purportedly center their lives around. I've seen nothing but near-universal criticism of both. And it's completely warranted. I remember reading an amusing bit on The Oatmeal about this. Bella is essentially an avatar for the reader/viewer, and is really nothing more than a pair of pants for them to immerse themselves and be swooned over by glittervamps and dog people. Even better. The twerp is meant to be the wish-fulfilling physical avatar of the author herself (a physical description chart actually listed all of the characteristics that Stephanie Meyer put for Bella and compared it to an image of SM, and the results were uncanny, and then there's the comments she's made where the whole premise of the series comes from a wet-dream she had.) And it just makes it so much creepier when you factor in one more aspect: the Mormonism. Twilight is basically a Mormon Mary-Sue story, and that just makes it so much weirder and worse. Now, I understand that this might sound insulting to Mormons.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 22, 2018 20:48:47 GMT
Didn't Twilight start out as a HP fanfic? And 50 Shades as a Twilight fanfic? Honestly, it's all just a chain of shitty self-insert wank. That they still made multi-million dollar movies out of
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Post by river82 on Mar 22, 2018 21:00:34 GMT
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Post by Melra on Mar 22, 2018 21:58:29 GMT
Rey, Rey, Rey, Rey. Currently the only Sue I am really troubled by, to some extent there's that lady from Stargate Origins, but I do my best to avoid poor quality stuff that is disrespectful to the original material.
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Post by Darth Dennis on Mar 22, 2018 23:08:43 GMT
I was going to make a case for James Bond, until I remembered he only always survives because the villains are fucking morons with impractical execution methods.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 22, 2018 23:19:11 GMT
In all honesty, I can see both arguments here. Luke was meant to be an escapist character, an everyday boy/young man who gets the call to adventure (and requisite hometown (or homestead in his case) destruction,) and goes off to become a big hero with special powers and a special destiny, complete with space ships, a beautiful woman, defeating evil, etc. Of course, Lucas (and others) turned a lot of those tropes on their heads (i.e., said special destiny Luke finds comes with suffering, said destiny doesn't always save him when shit hits the fan after his own ego gets the better of him, said beautiful woman ends up being his long-lost sister.) Escapist =/= Sue. Luke went on that hero's journey, but the movies were about him actually being on the journey. He doesn't start out flawless, universally liked, or an insta-expert at any given challenge in any way. And for a good chunk of it (Ep4 in particular) he's kind of out of his element, just trying to roll with the punches. He has to be, he's the audience surrogate, the character we're supposed to relate to and be beside while this world is explained to us. I'm not saying he's a Sue character, but from a certain point of view (pun intended,) you could ascribe some characteristics to him as such - he may not start out (or end up) flawless, but he is gifted and talented and able to catch on quickly at anything he puts his mind to (to the level of being a better pilot than veteran fighter jocks (the EU, when it was relevant, expanded on that.)) He wasn't universally liked of course (I mean, the Empire for starters hates him,) but within the rebellion, he quickly proves to be skilled enough and popular enough that he very quickly becomes a higher-ranking tactical leader of an elite group of pilots that succeed more often than not (with a minimum of military training. And going back to the examples of the fighter pilot, he is kind of an instant expert when he applies himself. He goes from sand-kicking teenage wannabe to full-fledged Jedi Knight in 4 years (a journey that takes decades for everyone else,) and to be fair, 3 of those years essentially had no real training beyond some self-practice on the side, with his X-wing gig being his priority. Now, as you and I have said, he's out of his element and not able to totally roll with the punches, but as it goes on, this quality is stripped further away. He's no sue, nor am I saying he is, but he does represent a level of wish fulfillment that transcends ordinary, flawed, heroic archetype figures.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 22, 2018 23:20:21 GMT
Didn't Twilight start out as a HP fanfic? And 50 Shades as a Twilight fanfic? Honestly, it's all just a chain of shitty self-insert wank. That they still made multi-million dollar movies out of Twilight was (more or less) an 'original' idea. 50 Shades was a fanfic for Twilight.
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