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Post by colfoley on Mar 24, 2018 1:14:28 GMT
I feel adding Honor to the discussion is low hanging fruit. Those novels aren't supposed to be High Literature but given that Honor, a female space officer in a fictional navy, is created by a male author who I believe is also a pastor...I'm skeptical.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 24, 2018 1:23:11 GMT
You know why don't I add my two cents to this list, except I am not going to use the term 'Mary Sue/ Gary Stu', as a perjorative. Also, given the murkiness of this issue in general I think most of these instances aren't clear cut.
Possible Mary Sue's: Hermione Granger, Sabine Wren.
Possible Gary Stu's: Jake Sisko,Varric Tethras, Samwell Tarly, Tyrion Lannister. If I think of others I might add them.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 24, 2018 1:57:56 GMT
You know why don't I add my two cents to this list, except I am not going to use the term 'Mary Sue/ Gary Stu', as a perjorative. Also, given the murkiness of this issue in general I think most of these instances aren't clear cut. Possible Mary Sue's: Hermione Granger, Sabine Wren. Possible Gary Stu's: Jake Sisko,Varric Tethras, Samwell Tarly, Tyrion Lannister. If I think of others I might add them. I dunno is this post supposed to be a joke post based on the idea that " all characters I dislike are Mary Sues dooood!" or do you have legitimate reasons for listing those characters as Mary Sues? As far as I can see those 2 characters are about as far from Sues as it gets and I am not sure if the other characters you list really fit the mold either. Samwell is fat, awkward and clumsy and Tyrion is a deformed dwarf and an alcoholic as well as being a slave to his other base desires. Not sure how either fits the mold of a Sue, you sure you understand the meaning of the term?
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 24, 2018 2:36:43 GMT
You know why don't I add my two cents to this list, except I am not going to use the term 'Mary Sue/ Gary Stu', as a perjorative. Also, given the murkiness of this issue in general I think most of these instances aren't clear cut. Possible Mary Sue's: Hermione Granger, Sabine Wren. Possible Gary Stu's: Jake Sisko,Varric Tethras, Samwell Tarly, Tyrion Lannister. If I think of others I might add them. I wouldn't call Hermione a Mary Sue. She has her flaws, and aside from her intelligence and integrity, she's not particularly a stand out in a lot of other fields. She cleans up nicely, sure, but she doesn't dress up often, and she has a vindictive streak when it comes to Ron and Harry. Socially, she's defined by her intelligence, her granola-girl tendencies (which people are off-put by,) and her proximity to Harry. Jake Sisko?!? What? How? Varric? Samwell Tarly? Tyrion?!? These people are not idealized characters.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 2:40:24 GMT
Possible Mary Sue's: Hermione Granger, Sabine Wren. What about Daenerys?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 24, 2018 3:49:16 GMT
You know why don't I add my two cents to this list, except I am not going to use the term 'Mary Sue/ Gary Stu', as a perjorative. Also, given the murkiness of this issue in general I think most of these instances aren't clear cut. Possible Mary Sue's: Hermione Granger, Sabine Wren. Possible Gary Stu's: Jake Sisko,Varric Tethras, Samwell Tarly, Tyrion Lannister. If I think of others I might add them. I dunno is this post supposed to be a joke post based on the idea that " all characters I dislike are Mary Sues dooood!" or do you have legitimate reasons for listing those characters as Mary Sues? As far as I can see those 2 characters are about as far from Sues as it gets and I am not sure if the other characters you list really fit the mold either. Samwell is fat, awkward and clumsy and Tyrion is a deformed dwarf and an alcoholic as well as being a slave to his other base desires. Not sure how either fits the mold of a Sue, you sure you understand the meaning of the term? For me there are no negative connotations to the term Mary Sue. Mary Sue s can be poorly or well written like any narrative device. In fact the only character who I (initially) disliked because of her Sueness was Sabine. Though later on they really fleshed-out the character. To your specific question though. Tyrion I believe I read an interview where Martin essentially said 'he is me in this world'. And it seems to fit. Both are highly intelligent, very creative individuals who are cynical and feel ostracized by their society. Furthermore Tyrion, despite his abnormalities, social standing, and character flaws he is fiendishly clever and pretty competent at everything he does. As far as Samwell Tarly is concerned, admittedly I am on more shaky ground when it comes to him but I am automatically suspicious of any creative type that is inserted as a character into a story, IE author or artist, by people who are authors and writers. I'd be more confident, but then this is a world where Tyrion already exists. Possible Mary Sue's: Hermione Granger, Sabine Wren. What about Daenerys? I don't consider her one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 3:51:39 GMT
I don't consider her one. Why not?
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Post by colfoley on Mar 24, 2018 3:52:23 GMT
I don't consider her one. Why not? Don't know Dan or Dave too well but she exhibits almost none of the qualities that I associate with GRR Martin in all I have read or seen from him.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 24, 2018 4:34:52 GMT
I don't know, I loved where they ended up going with Clara, and her being the closest to a distaff counterpart to the Doctor. In many ways, she was the closest to the classic love-interest of old Who. Plus, you also have to admit how Rose got foisted on the audience while RTD ran the ship. I mean, I love Rose, but... let's just say I think it's best if the Doctor stops running into his soulmate every other companion. Everyone has to be 'more special' than the last, which has been problematic for the latest series' of Doctor Who. Of course, there have been the 'normal' companions in comparison (I've sort of lost track of them over time,) but too often, they resort to some companion who has too much of a special destiny. But the distaff counterpart comparisons feel forced and completely unearned. Clara is an control freak and an egomaniac (which she even unwittingly admits to in "Deep Breath"), who thinks she's smarter and capable than she actually is, thus making her worthy to act as if she was the Doctor. But as we saw in "Face the Raven", the inevitable result of her trying to act like she was the Doctor ended up being precisely what got her killed, because she's nowhere near as smart, capable or experienced as the Doctor. Personally I feel like Twelve should have channelled his inner Malcolm Tucker and given Clara the same speech as Ollie in "The Thick of It". While Rose was definitely a creator's pet for RTD, as shown by Martha being effectively the "rebound" companion, even RTD had the sense not to try to weave Clara into the Doctor's own personal timeline as much as Moffat attempted to do with Clara in episodes like "The Name of the Doctor" and "Listen". Likewise, whenever Rose attempted to act like the Doctor (such as in "The Christmas Invasion"), no-one took all her seriously and the show didn't bend over backwards (like it did with Clara) to treat her like she was actually worthy of taking on that mantle.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 24, 2018 5:04:42 GMT
Don't know Dan or Dave too well but she exhibits almost none of the qualities that I associate with GRR Martin in all I have read or seen from him. In common usage a Mary Sue isn't necessarily a self insert of the author and even when they are one it isn't the fact that they are a self insert of the author that makes them a Mary Sue but rather the fact that they are an unrealistic interpretation that is almost flawless and the story seems to revolve almost entirely around how great the character is While the original Mary Sue's were largely self inserts the term has evolved to encompass any character with the traits described regardless of whether or not they are a self insert of the author.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 24, 2018 5:12:23 GMT
Possible Mary Sue's: Hermione Granger, Sabine Wren. What about Daenerys? She would be if they weren't gonna kill her off next in season 8
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 5:15:57 GMT
She would be if they weren't gonna kill her off next in season 8 I want both Jon and Daenerys dead. Daenerys dies of childbirth, and Jon dies fighting the white walkers.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 24, 2018 5:22:37 GMT
Season 5 was such a dick-punch...
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 24, 2018 5:48:27 GMT
Season 5 was such a dick-punch... Thing is it is heavily implied that in the book series he is supposed to win that battle. Season 5 onwards seems to be a pretty massive departure from the books.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 24, 2018 5:50:36 GMT
Season 5 was such a dick-punch... Slight-OT tangent, but if Stannis fans believe he's the true King by right, then do they support Hela in Thor: Ragnarok?
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 24, 2018 5:53:20 GMT
[snip] Season 5 was such a dick-punch... Thing is it is heavily implied that in the book series he is supposed to win that battle. Season 5 onwards seems to be a pretty massive departure from the books.No shit
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Post by colfoley on Mar 24, 2018 5:58:49 GMT
Don't know Dan or Dave too well but she exhibits almost none of the qualities that I associate with GRR Martin in all I have read or seen from him. In common usage a Mary Sue isn't necessarily a self insert of the author and even when they are one it isn't the fact that they are a self insert of the author that makes them a Mary Sue but rather the fact that they are an unrealistic interpretation that is almost flawless and the story seems to revolve almost entirely around how great the character is While the original Mary Sue's were largely self inserts the term has evolved to encompass any character with the traits described regardless of whether or not they are a self insert of the author. I hate it when terms evolve illogically like that.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 24, 2018 6:02:48 GMT
In common usage a Mary Sue isn't necessarily a self insert of the author and even when they are one it isn't the fact that they are a self insert of the author that makes them a Mary Sue but rather the fact that they are an unrealistic interpretation that is almost flawless and the story seems to revolve almost entirely around how great the character is While the original Mary Sue's were largely self inserts the term has evolved to encompass any character with the traits described regardless of whether or not they are a self insert of the author. I hate it when terms evolve illogically like that. I don't see what is so illogical about it, they just dropped the "self insert" part to encompass a wider spectrum, seems like the logical progression to me.
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Post by House Targaryen on Mar 24, 2018 6:08:15 GMT
Possible Mary Sue's: Hermione Granger, Sabine Wren. What about Daenerys? Nah. She's a goddess among mortals.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 6:36:48 GMT
Nah. She's a goddess among mortals. That sounds like a Mary Sue tho...
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Post by Sifr on Mar 24, 2018 6:37:36 GMT
I'd call her more of a Villain Sue at worst. From S3-7 she never suffers any real setbacks in her quest for power, even though the show repeatedly demonstrated from the Meereen arc that she's a terrible ruler and administrator. She demanded sweeping changes be made in Meereen without any understanding of the local politics, customs and culture of the people she was meant to be ruling. That is not to say that ending slavery wasn't a good thing, but what did she intend to replace the local economy with? And how did she expect to have the loyalty the Meereenese nobility, when she'd destroyed their very way of life, crucified their fellows and incited slaves into murdering them? The show also ignored that by allowing Astapor or Yunkai to fall back under the Master's control, she allowed her enemies to grow in strength, all while she did nothing to prevent it. Despite defeating the Masters at the end of S6, she then left and took her entire army with her. So what's to stop them coming back, or do we really think leaving Daario in charge will stop them? Realistically, Meereen will probably fall into civil war or back under the Masters' control by the time she's halfway to Dragonstone. You can't "break the wheel" if you're already on the cart, not unless you want to crash headfirst into a ditch. All of this is why Dany's characterisation and actions make far more sense if you look at her as a villain protagonist, particularly when compared to the more standard heroic archetype and story arc that Jon falls into over the series. Both are still aligned with "good" and have noble intenions, but they have radically different approaches and ideas on how to get there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 6:44:47 GMT
I'd call her more of a Villain Sue at worst. From S3-7 she never suffers any real setbacks in her quest for power, even though the show repeatedly demonstrated from the Meereen arc that she's a terrible ruler and administrator. She demanded sweeping changes be made in Meereen without any understanding of the local politics, customs and culture of the people she was meant to be ruling. That is not to say that ending slavery wasn't a good thing, but what did she intend to replace the local economy with? And how did she expect to have the loyalty the Meereenese nobility, when she'd destroyed their very way of life, crucified their fellows and incited slaves into murdering them? The show also ignored that by allowing Astapor or Yunkai to fall back under the Master's control, she allowed her enemies to grow in strength, all while she did nothing to prevent it. Despite defeating the Masters at the end of S6, she then left and took her entire army with her. So what's to stop them coming back, or do we really think leaving Daario in charge will stop them? Realistically, Meereen will probably fall into civil war or back under the Masters' control by the time she's halfway to Dragonstone. You can't "break the wheel" if you're already on the cart, not unless you want to crash headfirst into a ditch.All of this is why Dany's characterisation and actions make far more sense if you look at her as a villain protagonist, particularly when compared to the more standard heroic archetype and story arc that Jon falls into over the series. Both are still aligned with "good" and have noble intenions, but they have radically different approaches and ideas on how to get there. I don't want her to end the monarchy of Westeros, I really would hate if it did indeed end that way. Seems like a waste to me.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 24, 2018 7:47:42 GMT
If there is any character in Modern Fiction that proves the absurdity of what the word 'Mary Sue' has become its...Daenarys Targaryan, imo.
Lets see this is a character who: Comes off as a 'mad queen' most of the time. She has been violent, aggressive, and quite opposed to anyone challenging her authority to the point she is probably one fry short of becoming the next Stannis Baratheon or TWO fries short of becoming the next "Mad King" Aerys Targaryan (like father like daughter eh?) This is a character who constantly makes rash decision after rash decision. She is stubbourn in her moral compass to the point that she makes Ned Stark look like a pragmatic individual, to the point that she has done herself, her people, and her 'cause' tremendous harm, and constantly seems to be at war with herself to the point where one wonders just which direction she is going to jump.
Sure, she could get over all of this in the eleventh hour and grow into a confident and capable ruler, there is certainly enough evidence to point towards that, but the story both GRR Martin and Dan and Dave have constructed do not make that a sure thing. She COULD be the Westeros George Washington next to Tyrion's Ben Franklin, or she could follow in her father's dark footsteps.
Mary Sue? Please.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2018 7:52:47 GMT
or she could follow in her father's dark footsteps. I hope she does. That would be so funny, seeing dany fans rage over their precious dany become like daddy. It would be rather suiting.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 24, 2018 8:07:51 GMT
or she could follow in her father's dark footsteps. I hope she does. That would be so funny, seeing dany fans rage over their precious dany become like daddy. It would be rather suiting. Ironically enough though I really think that GRR Martin/ Dan and Dave have already been planting the seeds of that little plot line. Stannis Baratheon, I think anyways, is the perfect mirror to Danny's overall character arc. They both are very similar people and a lot of similar qualities in their respective arcs, but for a short few highlights: Both stubbourn, cold, and committed to their 'laws' and their moral compass, both hard people who are willing to do WHATEVER neccessary to enforce their 'law' and their sense of self important 'destiny.' Now I really, really actually like Danny despite everything that I said, but I do that with the caution in the back of mind that I was growing to like Stannis too and thought he would have been the one true King that Westeros needed, though maybe not wanted, but then bam he burns his daughter...ok neccessary to get the Iron Throne and unite against the Wal...oh he's dead now. I could easily see either/ or Jon Snow or Jamie going all Azor Ahai and stick their collective swords in Cersei or Daenarys.
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