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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 22, 2018 11:29:19 GMT
Whether it be video games, comics, movies or whatever, which characters do you nominate as the ultimate Mary Sue? For those of you not in the know a "Mary Sue" is most commonly defined as a character without any flaws (or at the very least if they do have flaws they are usually strengths that have been framed as weaknesses) and is perfect at almost everything they do, naturally this character is admired and looked up to be all the sympathetic and good characters in the story and not liking this character is considered a mental illness (also it makes the bad guys easy for the audience to recognize due to their disdain for the main character). In it's original usage it was also meant to describe a character who was an obvious self insert of the author and while that still may be the case for some Mary Sues it is not a requirement and the term has become more of a general catch all for flawless main characters who are perfect at everything. While there is still some argument over whether the term "Mary Sue" should apply to male characters and whether or not they should be known as "Marty Sues" or "Gary Stus" but such discussions are gender shaming and as good Feminists we should avoid just treat "Mary Sue" as a nonbinary term that applies to both sexes. A good example of a Mary Sue would probably be Rei from the Force Awakens, she is shown to have no flaws and to be perfect at everything she does including mastering the Jedi Mind and Lightsaber combat without any prior training or knowledge of the force and knowing more about the Millennium Falcon (a ship she has been on for 5 minutes) than Han Solo who has had a strong bond with the ship for most of his adult life. That said I am pretty sure everybody already knows about Rei and her Mary Sueness has been discussed to death so what are some other good examples of Mary Sues in popular media and entertainment? To get the ball rolling let me introduce Aloy the protagonist from Horizon Zero Dawn 41zxbw463fq733z1kl101n01-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Horizon-Zero-Dawn-complete-editionm-750x430.jpgFor those who have not played Horizon Zero Dawn major spoilers ahead Aloy is a great example of a Mary Sue not only in her current incarnation as Aloy but as Dr Elisabet Sobeck the infallible woman she was cloned from who saved the world (from the disaster unleashed by a filthy arrogant and ignorant male) previously before the events of Horizon Zero Dawn even begin. Basically what happens is Chad Thundercock the filthy white heterosexual male who is also the CEO of some tech company ignores the advice of Elisabet Sobeck and unleashes an army of unstoppable death robots who end up getting out of control (because who needs safety controls AMIRITEGAIZ?) and threaten to destroy the world and turn it into an uninhabitable wasteland. Then because he has a moment of realization that this problem is not going to be solved without the help of a strong independent woman he calls back Elisabet Sobeck and grovels for her help despite ignoring her warnings before because she is the only one who can save the world. Elisabet Sobeck then leads a team of scientists and creates a female AI that is supposed to repopulate the earth once the evil death robots run out of fuel and Elisabet Sobeck manages to save the world for the next generation of humans if not for the current generations of humans. However before she can get to the bunker where she will live out the rest of her life while the world fixes itself something goes wrong and threatens the whole project so she has to go out and fix it knowing full well she will be locked out of the bunker and will die earlier than predicted as a result getting her "heroic sacrifice ending" (another common trope of the Mary Sue) and everyone left in the bunker gets all sad and everyone gives her a heartfelt tribute because she saved the world and was so great. Everything seems to go ok for a while until Chad Thundercock and his flawed heterosexual white male brain decides that he hasn't fucked things up enough already and wipes out the entire worlds knowledge so the next generation of humans wont be able to learn from their mistakes (most specifically HIS mistake) and kills the rest of the scientists left in the bunker because YOLO (unless you are Elisabet Sobeck as we will soon find out) and all that is left of humanity dies out.
Then a 1000 or so years pass and the Female AI decides it is time to start repopulating the earth so she clones new humans to repopulate the earth, but without any prior knowledge to learn from humanity essentially has to start from scratch forming new tribes and shit, but then a couple hundred years later the EVIL NASTY YUCKY MALE subroutine that was hidden in GAIA designed to destroy the world wakes up and threatens to destroy everything, GAIA isnt able to delete the white male subroutine from her database so she has to seperate herself from it and decides that the only logical course of action is to create an exact clone of Elisabet Sobeck because only somebody with her perfect DNA will be able to fix the problem, Elisabet Sobeck is cloned and dumped on the doorstep of a Tribe run by the Matriarchs and then she grows up and solves everybodies problems because she is perfect, Also all the good male characters fall in love with her as well, even the Prince tries to awkwardly ask her out straight after learning that his former love and advisor just died to which Aloy responds by clearly showing him to the friendzone. she also knows things that the other people of the world have no way of knowing like the world is round not because GAIA was able to instill all of Sobeck's previous knowledge in but rather because she is just that much smarter than everyone else and is able to figure out all this stuff on her own despite never having been exposed to any of it before. And while I know many of you may not like to acknowledge that Horizon Zero Dawn has a feminist bias because you actually like that game but cmon, Horizon Zero Dawn is pretty fucking feminist, seriously all the women are either strong and independent, fearless leaders or innocent victims while all the men are either weak and cowardly, assholes, or subordinate to their female betters. Even the "good" male characters in leadership roles are shown to be lost without the wisdom of their female advisors, Erend is constantly like "oh no now that my sister is dead how will I ever cope without having her tell me what to do" while Sun King Avad is all like "oh now now that Erend's sister is dead how will I cope without having her tell me what to do?".
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 22, 2018 11:35:35 GMT
Are you trying to stir shit up? Are you that bored?
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 22, 2018 11:38:48 GMT
Are you trying to stir shit up? Are you that bored? I have no idea what you mean? I am merely making a discussion topic, don't think there are any attacks on members of the BSN forum in my post are there? I don't know why this particular topic would upset anyone?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 22, 2018 11:40:31 GMT
Are you trying to stir shit up? Are you that bored? I have no idea what you mean? I am merely making a discussion topic, don't think there are any attacks on members of the BSN forum in my post are there? I don't know why this particular topic would upset anyone? bsn.boards.net/thread/14543/lara-crofts-small-raider-reboot
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 22, 2018 11:44:36 GMT
Don't know what that thread has to do with this one, it was a question somebody asked on twitter, I wanted to get the opinion of the BSN network and I guess that is pretty much that, not sure what it has to do with this thread? Besides do you have anything to actually add to this thread or are you just here to troll?
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Post by mousestalker on Mar 22, 2018 12:13:03 GMT
I have to agree. Almost all female characters leads in video games are Mary Sues. Look at Ms. Pac-man for crying out loud! She can eat without fear of weight gain and if she eats the right food she can consume her patriarchal opponents.
There are some token concessions to reality, but it really is the story of an over-powered female hero destroying her enemies in a violent and cruel manner.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Mar 22, 2018 12:15:36 GMT
Don't know what that thread has to do with this one, it was a question somebody asked on twitter, I wanted to get the opinion of the BSN network and I guess that is pretty much that, not sure what it has to do with this thread? Besides do you have anything to actually add to this thread or are you just here to troll? I'd say the same thing about your topic, but whatever. If you're being serious, then sure. Fine whatever, Marry Poppins ya'll.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Mar 22, 2018 12:18:25 GMT
Wouldn't the objective answer be the actual "Mary Sue" herself? O.o
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Post by vonuber on Mar 22, 2018 12:32:18 GMT
A true feminist game, EQUALITY! And there we have the true thrust of this thread. What a surprise.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 22, 2018 12:39:17 GMT
I have to agree. Almost all female characters leads in video games are Mary Sues. Look at Ms. Pac-man for crying out loud! She can eat without fear of weight gain and if she eats the right food she can consume her patriarchal opponents. Did you just assume their ectoplasmic gender??
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Post by SofaJockey on Mar 22, 2018 13:02:18 GMT
I don't know why this particular topic would upset anyone? if we can manage a civil discussion without frayed tempers, maybe. But we're already on the edge of bait here, so let's see how we go...
And in my personal opinion, Aloy is awesome...
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Post by arvaarad on Mar 22, 2018 13:31:08 GMT
Classic Superman has got to take the trophy, right? He was always getting new crazy powers as the plot demanded, and his character growth was — well, perhaps implied, at best. Growing from a hero to... still a hero is kind of an arc? Oh also Ender from Ender’s Game, who we’re always told is this great people-managing genius, but whose shown social interactions are about as convincing as a cardboard cutout. Ditto for his moments of strategic brilliance, he’s a master strategist because the author says he is that. Ooo, ooo, or maybe it would be James Bond, who somehow always finds hot babes who he can proceed to have roughly 0 chemistry with. And is a cunning superspy who can escape any trap. On the other hand, perhaps Captain Kirk is a contender. He gets all the hot alien babes despite his... everything (hey maybe aliens have different standards of beauty. And personality). And manages to bumblefuck his way out of every situation while explicitly ignoring the rational solutions, because the universe is out to reward his particular brand of emotional impulsiveness. Actually, come to think of it, Kirk’s the winner. It’s Kirk.
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Post by Ieldra on Mar 22, 2018 13:51:50 GMT
You know what, OP - I don't care. Some characters are too flawless to be interesting, others are interesting in spite of being largely flawless. I don't think there exists a character type which is by definition illegitimate. There may be types who are annoying to most recipients, but even those may be appreciated by some. Blatant wish-fulfilment through and in fiction is not, in itself, illegitimate. The worst you can say about such characters is that they tend to be boring (and not even that's without exception), but they're not alone in that.
BTW, since I tend to dislike some key features of the Star Wars universe, I haven't watched The Force Awakens yet, but I have seen Rei mentioned in too many extremely critical posts, here and in other places. It seems like an anti-hype of epic proportions, which means I'm actually predisposed to think more positively of her. It would be hard to be as bad as Anakin Skywalker from episodes 1-3 anyway.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 22, 2018 14:03:19 GMT
Classic Superman has got to take the trophy, right? He was always getting new crazy powers as the plot demanded, and his character growth was — well, perhaps implied, at best. Growing from a hero to... still a hero is kind of an arc? I dunno, hard to say with Superman with how many times he has been beaten like a chump or turned evil and was a super dick
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 22, 2018 14:15:35 GMT
You know what, OP - I don't care. Some characters are too flawless to be interesting, others are interesting in spite of being largely flawless. I don't think there exists a character type which is by definition illegitimate. There may be types who are annoying to most recipients, but even those may be appreciated by some. Blatant wish-fulfilment through and in fiction is not, in itself, illegitimate. The worst you can say about such characters is that they tend to be boring (and not even that's without exception), but they're not alone in that. BTW, since I tend to dislike some key features of the Star Wars universe, I haven't watched The Force Awakens yet, but I have seen Rei mentioned in too many extremely critical posts, here and in other places. It seems like an anti-hype of epic proportions, which means I'm actually predisposed to think more positively of her. It would be hard to be as bad as Anakin Skywalker from episodes 1-3 anyway. It is odd but for some reason I find Mary Sue type characters amusing and funny and I am not sure exactly why? Maybe I just like to laugh at bad writing and like to try and predict where the story is going to go based on the biases of the author. As for Rey, Anakin still has her beat on the unlikable scale by a long shot, so does the Emo Vader wannabe in the new Star Wars movies as well, there are a lot more unlikable things about the new Star Wars films than just Rei but it is still a valid criticism of the movies that Rei is a bit of a mary sue.
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Post by arvaarad on Mar 22, 2018 14:15:47 GMT
Classic Superman has got to take the trophy, right? He was always getting new crazy powers as the plot demanded, and his character growth was — well, perhaps implied, at best. Growing from a hero to... still a hero is kind of an arc? I dunno, hard to say with Superman with how many times he has been beaten like a chump or turned evil and was a super dick Yeah, and comics are basically wall-to-wall Sues anyway, because everyone eventually comes back from defeat/death/whatever, no matter how final it seemed. So I think I’m sticking to Captain Kirk as my champion. It would be pretty hard to find a more powerful Sue than he.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 22, 2018 14:16:25 GMT
How about every single female police officer / agent / lawyer / hacker etc. ever in movies and TV?
In their twenties, anorectic and with spaghetti arms, they're bossing confidently around (now compare that to how a real woman in her 20's speak and behave). Typically they're of senior rank as well (how the hell did that happen?) and have mature men listening and obeying. And of course they have no problems manhandling and taking down a male in unarmed combat. Oooh no, they're soo dangerous.
This is probably women of real experience in their 30's and 40's. They're not anorectic, but stoutly built and presumably trained. But it's still the reality, unfortunately for them.
So how can you say there have ever been any action role for a woman that's not a Mary Sue?
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 22, 2018 14:21:49 GMT
How about every single female police officer / agent / lawyer / hacker etc. ever in movies and TV? In their twenties, anorectic and with spaghetti arms, they're bossing confidently around (now compare that to how a real woman in her 20's speak and behave). Typically they're of senior rank as well (how the hell did that happen?) and have mature men listening and obeying. And of course they have no problems manhandling and taking down a male in unarmed combat. Oooh no, they're soo dangerous. This is probably women of real experience in their 30's and 40's. They're not anorectic, but stoutly built and presumably trained. But it's still the reality, unfortunately for them. So how can you say there have ever been any action role for a woman that's not a Mary Sue? I don't know I don't think being better than average or slightly unrealistic really qualifies a character as a Mary Sue, I think there is a little bit of suspension of disbelief that needs to happen with any action hero whether they are male or female however I don't this alone really qualifies them as a Mary Sue.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 22, 2018 14:25:05 GMT
How about every single female police officer / agent / lawyer / hacker etc. ever in movies and TV? In their twenties, anorectic and with spaghetti arms, they're bossing confidently around (now compare that to how a real woman in her 20's speak and behave). Typically they're of senior rank as well (how the hell did that happen?) and have mature men listening and obeying. And of course they have no problems manhandling and taking down a male in unarmed combat. Oooh no, they're soo dangerous. This is probably women of real experience in their 30's and 40's. They're not anorectic, but stoutly built and presumably trained. But it's still the reality, unfortunately for them. So how can you say there have ever been any action role for a woman that's not a Mary Sue? I don't know I don't think being better than average or slightly unrealistic really qualifies a character as a Mary Sue, I think there is a little bit of suspension of disbelief that needs to happen with any action hero whether they are male or female however I don't this alone really qualifies them as a Mary Sue. Emmm... I'll consider your point...
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 22, 2018 14:30:21 GMT
I don't know I don't think being better than average or slightly unrealistic really qualifies a character as a Mary Sue, I think there is a little bit of suspension of disbelief that needs to happen with any action hero whether they are male or female however I don't this alone really qualifies them as a Mary Sue. Mmmm... I'll consider your point... It would depend on the specific example, if the woman was flawless, everybody loved her (except the bad guys and the mentally ill) and she was single handedly capable of solving everyone's problems then yeah she would be a Mary Sue, but if she is just a tough chick who is capable of holding her own despite maybe not looking as physically strong as the show makes her out to be then probably not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 14:32:01 GMT
Commander Gandalf the Shepfabulous? is... the Bunz?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Mar 22, 2018 15:03:11 GMT
Classic Superman has got to take the trophy, right? He was always getting new crazy powers as the plot demanded, and his character growth was — well, perhaps implied, at best. Growing from a hero to... still a hero is kind of an arc? Can't beat using "super ventriloquism" for the sole purpose of fucking with Lois Lane. I argue (backed by this Cracked article) that Classic Superman is actually flawed, as he spends far more effort concealing his identity (and generally being a dick about it) than actually being a hero. It would be hard to be as bad as Anakin Skywalker from episodes 1-3 anyway. In terms of likeablilty, maybe. But Anakin is about a far from a Sue as you can get, since despite being set up as literally Space Jesus, he technically fails in everything he sets out to do, fails at being both a Jedi and a Sith and ultimately fails his own prophecy, or at best is merely an assist on it, due to his character flaws no less. How about every single female police officer / agent / lawyer / hacker etc. ever in movies and TV? In their twenties, anorectic and with spaghetti arms, they're bossing confidently around (now compare that to how a real woman in her 20's speak and behave). Typically they're of senior rank as well (how the hell did that happen?) and have mature men listening and obeying. And of course they have no problems manhandling and taking down a male in unarmed combat. Oooh no, they're soo dangerous. This is probably women of real experience in their 30's and 40's. They're not anorectic, but stoutly built and presumably trained. But it's still the reality, unfortunately for them. So how can you say there have ever been any action role for a woman that's not a Mary Sue? The improbably young thing isn't restricted to females. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImprobableAgeAnd I do wish people would get off this "calling anorexic" bend. I see it as a proportional suspension of disbelief that someone like Schwarzenegger could lift a phone booth, car or person by the neck with just one arm while a normal female hero judo-flips one dude. And not every action hero is Schwarzenegger, Stallone or Van Damme, either. At his prime Bruce Willis was just average fit, still pulled some crazy moves. Action heroes in general are tougher, stronger and can do more crazy shit than their physique would allow in RL. That's kinda the point.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Mar 22, 2018 15:04:11 GMT
There is tons of Mary Sues of both genders in media, and they all have one thing in common: they are boring as fuck. I always find it funny when media creates Mary Sue characters because of their not-so-hidden pro -insert gender- agenda when in fact it only hurts perception of men and women and makes the protagonist dull and plain, backfiring horribly.
There are great examples of female and male heroes that have been done right. Ripely from Alien, Senua from Hellblade, Mad Max, Cassandra from Dragon Age, Rocky Balboa, etc.
Bad writing, gender agenda and political BS in entertainment media is very common right now, sadly, and it ruins loads of stuff.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 22, 2018 16:21:08 GMT
Let's be honest here. If anyone is going to create world-ending technology that runs amok and kills us all, it's going to be a dude like Ted Faro.
Anyhoo, don't care. Horizon Zero Dawn is damn good gaming.
But, what would be your take on the Nora, a matriarchal society filled with xenophobic Luddite assholes?
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