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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2018 15:58:14 GMT
Yeah we hear this a lot but I don't think I have seen anything in modern media that pushes male supremacy as much as this game pushes female supremacy. But you mistake me for saying that this is a bad thing or that this game shouldn't exist which isn't what I am saying at all. If this is the game the designers wanted to make then all the more power to them. Ok well I admit the writing is eyerollingly bad with how thick they lay it on but this did not bother me so much as I found it amusing and fun to laugh at, and even if I disagree with their message I can still enjoy the gameplay aspects of the game of which this was a pretty decent open world adventure game, not the best game I have ever played but fun enough. Having been on this planet for 34 years, and having been a nerd for that entire time, I've encountered plenty of fiction "patriarchal worlds." They just don't stand out as much because "male supremacy" is considered "normal." It's fairly obvious to me that the world of HZD is matriarchal. It reminded me of "The Wheel of Time" series, which also involved matriarchy. I don't see a problem with that, but I did find certain aspects cringey. For example, I can't stand the fact that every man Aloy encounters falls in love with her. Not Sylens though. That man giveth no fucks about anyone.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: rohlfdawg
PSN: rohlfdawg83
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Post by heathenoxman on Mar 23, 2018 16:06:20 GMT
Having been on this planet for 34 years, and having been a nerd for that entire time, I've encountered plenty of fiction "patriarchal worlds." They just don't stand out as much because "male supremacy" is considered "normal." It's fairly obvious to me that the world of HZD is matriarchal. It reminded me of "The Wheel of Time" series, which also involved matriarchy. I don't see a problem with that, but I did find certain aspects cringey. For example, I can't stand the fact that every man Aloy encounters falls in love with her. Not Sylens though. That man giveth no fucks about anyone. Sylens' one true love is Hades.
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Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by mousestalker on Mar 23, 2018 16:22:49 GMT
So what? The media is awash in male power-fantasies. There's nothing wrong with a fictional setting in which women are favored. Yeah we hear this a lot but I don't think I have seen anything in modern media that pushes male supremacy as much as this game pushes female supremacy. But you mistake me for saying that this is a bad thing or that this game shouldn't exist which isn't what I am saying at all. If this is the game the designers wanted to make then all the more power to them. Ok well I admit the writing is eyerollingly bad with how thick they lay it on but this did not bother me so much as I found it amusing and fun to laugh at, and even if I disagree with their message I can still enjoy the gameplay aspects of the game of which this was a pretty decent open world adventure game, not the best game I have ever played but fun enough. Allow me to introduce you to the world of Gor. They were best sellers back in the day. There are still Gorean clubs.
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Post by KaiserShep on Mar 23, 2018 16:28:50 GMT
Not Sylens though. That man giveth no fucks about anyone. Sylens' one true love is Hades. Knowledge, has its rewards. Don't you think?
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Mar 23, 2018 16:47:43 GMT
Yeah we hear this a lot but I don't think I have seen anything in modern media that pushes male supremacy as much as this game pushes female supremacy. But you mistake me for saying that this is a bad thing or that this game shouldn't exist which isn't what I am saying at all. If this is the game the designers wanted to make then all the more power to them. Ok well I admit the writing is eyerollingly bad with how thick they lay it on but this did not bother me so much as I found it amusing and fun to laugh at, and even if I disagree with their message I can still enjoy the gameplay aspects of the game of which this was a pretty decent open world adventure game, not the best game I have ever played but fun enough. Allow me to introduce you to the world of Gor. They were best sellers back in the day. There are still Gorean clubs. Well it isn't exactly modern but perhaps I should amend my post to say "popular modern media" as I am sure you could probably find some obscure fantasy universe written in recent times on the dark corners of the internet that focuses on male supremacy and renders all the female characters either submissive to male rule or mentally ill for not recognizing male superiority. Still no way in hell you will see a modern movie or video game adaption of the universe get mainstream traction as I am pretty sure Anita and most mainstream news outlets would have a massive shit fit if they even caught a wiff of it.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: rohlfdawg
PSN: rohlfdawg83
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Post by heathenoxman on Mar 23, 2018 17:38:02 GMT
Sylens' one true love is Hades. Knowledge, has its rewards. Don't you think? Hades scares the shit outta me. So, nope.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 23, 2018 17:59:28 GMT
If I had to throw in a suggestion for ultimate Mary Sue in popular media, Clara Oswald in Doctor Who. The character became increasingly Sue-ish as time progressed and it didn't help that Steven Moffat clearly fell in love with his own creation. The show kept shoe-horning in reasons why she was the "most important companion ever", particularly in regards to her relationship with the Doctor, but it always felt contrived and forced. She started out in S7 as a literal plot MacGuffin devoid of any characterisation, only for the reveal about what the deal was with her to be rather underwhelming. When they decided to give her actual characterisation in S8, it only served to make her come across as a bossy, smug, know-it-all. Further didn't help was her initial rejection of the Twelfth Doctor and how co-dependent and toxic their relationship became. (That we later learn the Master was the one who orchestrated Clara and the Doctor being together, specifically banking on them bringing out the worst in each other, seems rather telling and a clear warning sign when you think about it.) Neither did it help that Moffat refused to let Jenna Coleman leave the show, constantly backtracking perfectly fine exits for Clara in order to keep his creator's pet around. Her character continued to become more conceited through S9 and acting as if she was capable of being the Doctor (or even better than the Doctor), only to get herself killed thanks to her own hubris. It as a tragic, but fitting end to her character because she'd let her ego get too out of control, plus you could argue that she'd become increasingly self-destructive in her behaviour after the death of her boyfriend Danny Pink at the end of S8. Plus this lead to the phenomenal "Heaven Sent", which has to be one of the best episodes of the show as the Doctor has to work through his grief. But then Moffat has to undermine even that by bringing her back to life, making her quasi-immortal and sending her off in her own TARDIS, while side-lining the return of Gallifrey and the Time Lords that fans had been waiting for over a decade to see. Honestly, I wish they'd stuck with their initial plans for Clara to be the Victorian Governess/Barmaid version we saw in "The Snowmen", who was infinitely more interesting and likeable than Clara Prime. Plus having a Victorian character would have made for a nice change from the "21st Century female companion" we've been inundated with since the revival. (Just to be clear, I love Jenna Coleman as an actress, but her character was terrible. She deserved far better)
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Post by colfoley on Mar 23, 2018 18:43:19 GMT
In my opinion the term Mary Sue is over used and generalized to the point of absurdity and meaninglessness. At this point, any character that doesn't suffer from a crippling flaw is declared a "Sue." which, of course, a lot of commentators seem to have no idea what a 'character flaw' is, or flat out ignore them when they believe a character is a 'sue'.
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Post by Vortex13 on Mar 23, 2018 18:48:54 GMT
The biggest Mary Sue in popular media?
That's easy: its all of us.
Humanity in all mainstream media, especially science fiction but present in fantasy as well, is the resident golden child of whatever setting they find themselves in. Sure, individually you can have humans as villains or scrappy heroes, but by and large our species is identified as the "special" race in some way.
We're the most "ingenious", the most "determined", the most "genetically diverse", [insert any other positive defining quality here] and all other races either bow to our writer-given talents as the literal ubersmench of the universe. Or, they hate us because of said qualities and fear our rise to power. Speaking of rise to power, there is not one mainstream media setting out there that doesn't have humanity already leading things or very quickly has us rising to leadership authority. Star Trek? Humanity is the face of the Federation with our home world plastered on their flags. Star Wars? Human lead senate and eventually human emperor. Mass Effect? Either a human council member, or an an entire human lead council and no other species bates and eye. Etc. Etc.
The initial perception of other races is even affected by humanity, with the 'goodly' ones closely resembling us in appearance and general culture, while those that don't automatically conform to what we find acceptable being depicted as villains or monsters.
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Post by masterwarderz on Mar 23, 2018 18:55:28 GMT
I was going to make a case for James Bond, until I remembered he only always survives because the villains are fucking morons with impractical execution methods. You read to read the classic Bond books actually, in cinema he's usually fighting complete rubes, in the books...well erm, in one of em, he died. ._. Pretty hard to call a dead man a sue in my opinion.
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Post by masterwarderz on Mar 23, 2018 18:57:10 GMT
So I saw that Twilight was mentioned here and I decided to see if the lead actress would arouse my interest in light of Alicia Vikander and Brie Larson failing to do so in their recent efforts and as it turns out, Kristen Steward has a pretty decent rump. Your ass fixation is disturbing and you should seek help for your obvious mental problems tbh
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 23, 2018 18:57:18 GMT
Yeah we hear this a lot but I don't think I have seen anything in modern media that pushes male supremacy as much as this game pushes female supremacy. But you mistake me for saying that this is a bad thing or that this game shouldn't exist which isn't what I am saying at all. If this is the game the designers wanted to make then all the more power to them. Ok well I admit the writing is eyerollingly bad with how thick they lay it on but this did not bother me so much as I found it amusing and fun to laugh at, and even if I disagree with their message I can still enjoy the gameplay aspects of the game of which this was a pretty decent open world adventure game, not the best game I have ever played but fun enough. Allow me to introduce you to the world of Gor. They were best sellers back in the day. There are still Gorean clubs. Okay. But there is a reason for Gor's notoriety. That they were so unique and politically incorrect, "even for" 1966. And methinks they weren't as universally celebrated amongst the cultural establishment as modern female power fantasies? So I'm sorry but I think you rather prove Gandalf's point. ...But thank you for mentioning them. I have taken notes. And now that I have a Kindle, they won't leave any damning evidence on my bookshelves.
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Post by Lavochkin on Mar 23, 2018 19:15:18 GMT
So I saw that Twilight was mentioned here and I decided to see if the lead actress would arouse my interest in light of Alicia Vikander and Brie Larson failing to do so in their recent efforts and as it turns out, Kristen Steward has a pretty decent rump. Your ass fixation is disturbing and you should seek help for your obvious mental problems tbh Rump is life and life is rump though.
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Post by B. Hieronymus Da on Mar 23, 2018 19:18:11 GMT
Hergé's Tintin?
I would say Harry Potter is somewhat Mary Sue'ish. Even if he is trained and educated, he can eventually do remarkable things just because he's Harry.
More clear cut example would be Rey (TLJ), of course (the elephant in the room?).
I also suspect there are plenty of Mary Sues in books for children. But for simplicity, that's probably appropriate.
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Post by masterwarderz on Mar 23, 2018 19:24:43 GMT
Your ass fixation is disturbing and you should seek help for your obvious mental problems tbh Rump is life and life is rump though. Nope, its just a place where poop comes out sad to say, but its the truth.
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Proud Sponsor of Swingin' Seamen Charter Fishing: My Live Bait Will Catch Your Fish Every Time!
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 23, 2018 20:36:22 GMT
Didn't Twilight start out as a HP fanfic? And 50 Shades as a Twilight fanfic? Honestly, it's all just a chain of shitty self-insert wank. That they still made multi-million dollar movies out of HP as in Harry Potter or something else? Also not seeing the link between Twilight and Fifty Shades of Grey apart from maybe wishfulfillment that plays into the sexual fantasies of the writers themselves? One is a about a Girl who is the object of desire for supernatural creatures like werewolves and vampires and the other is about a girl who gets abused by her billionaire boyfriend? Is Mr Grey supposed to be a Vampire or something? Fifty Shades has been explicitly stated to have started off as a Twilight fanfic.
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Post by Sifr on Mar 23, 2018 20:40:31 GMT
I was going to make a case for James Bond, until I remembered he only always survives because the villains are fucking morons with impractical execution methods. Bond also can't be considered "perfect" when you consider he checks a lot of boxes for a psychopath. There's the false charm, impaired empathy and remorse, boldness and disinhibition when carrying out both missions and pursuit of the opposite sex, among many other qualities that would indicate psychopathy or at the very least, some degree of antisocial personality disorder.
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Post by The Hype Himself on Mar 23, 2018 20:45:57 GMT
If I had to throw in a suggestion for ultimate Mary Sue in popular media, Clara Oswald in Doctor Who. The character became increasingly Sue-ish as time progressed and it didn't help that Steven Moffat clearly fell in love with his own creation. The show kept shoe-horning in reasons why she was the "most important companion ever", particularly in regards to her relationship with the Doctor, but it always felt contrived and forced. She started out in S7 as a literal plot MacGuffin devoid of any characterisation, only for the reveal about what the deal was with her to be rather underwhelming. When they decided to give her actual characterisation in S8, it only served to make her come across as a bossy, smug, know-it-all. Further didn't help was her initial rejection of the Twelfth Doctor and how co-dependent and toxic their relationship became. (That we later learn the Master was the one who orchestrated Clara and the Doctor being together, specifically banking on them bringing out the worst in each other, seems rather telling and a clear warning sign when you think about it.) Neither did it help that Moffat refused to let Jenna Coleman leave the show, constantly backtracking perfectly fine exits for Clara in order to keep his creator's pet around. Her character continued to become more conceited through S9 and acting as if she was capable of being the Doctor (or even better than the Doctor), only to get herself killed thanks to her own hubris. It as a tragic, but fitting end to her character because she'd let her ego get too out of control, plus you could argue that she'd become increasingly self-destructive in her behaviour after the death of her boyfriend Danny Pink at the end of S8. Plus this lead to the phenomenal "Heaven Sent", which has to be one of the best episodes of the show as the Doctor has to work through his grief. But then Moffat has to undermine even that by bringing her back to life, making her quasi-immortal and sending her off in her own TARDIS, while side-lining the return of Gallifrey and the Time Lords that fans had been waiting for over a decade to see. Honestly, I wish they'd stuck with their initial plans for Clara to be the Victorian Governess/Barmaid version we saw in "The Snowmen", who was infinitely more interesting and likeable than Clara Prime. Plus having a Victorian character would have made for a nice change from the "21st Century female companion" we've been inundated with since the revival. (Just to be clear, I love Jenna Coleman as an actress, but her character was terrible. She deserved far better) I don't know, I loved where they ended up going with Clara, and her being the closest to a distaff counterpart to the Doctor. In many ways, she was the closest to the classic love-interest of old Who. Plus, you also have to admit how Rose got foisted on the audience while RTD ran the ship. I mean, I love Rose, but... let's just say I think it's best if the Doctor stops running into his soulmate every other companion. Everyone has to be 'more special' than the last, which has been problematic for the latest series' of Doctor Who. Of course, there have been the 'normal' companions in comparison (I've sort of lost track of them over time,) but too often, they resort to some companion who has too much of a special destiny.
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Post by mybudgee on Mar 23, 2018 21:31:32 GMT
Your ass fixation is disturbing and you should seek help for your obvious mental problems tbh Rump is life and life is rump though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 21:44:35 GMT
Rump is life and life is rump though. I routinely bite my girlfriend's bum. At least once a day really. I highly recommend a vigorous rump attack once daily.
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Post by Lavochkin on Mar 23, 2018 22:08:08 GMT
I routinely bite my girlfriend's bum. At least once a day really. I highly recommend a vigorous rump attack once daily. Problem with that though, is that I likely wouldn't want to let go.
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Post by Phantom on Mar 23, 2018 23:24:04 GMT
I remember reading an amusing bit on The Oatmeal about this. Bella is essentially an avatar for the reader/viewer, and is really nothing more than a pair of pants for them to immerse themselves and be swooned over by glittervamps and dog people. Even better. The twerp is meant to be the wish-fulfilling physical avatar of the author herself (a physical description chart actually listed all of the characteristics that Stephanie Meyer put for Bella and compared it to an image of SM, and the results were uncanny, and then there's the comments she's made where the whole premise of the series comes from a wet-dream she had.) And it just makes it so much creepier when you factor in one more aspect: the Mormonism. Twilight is basically a Mormon Mary-Sue story, and that just makes it so much weirder and worse. Now, I understand that this might sound insulting to Mormons. It is insulting to Mormons in general. Also Most Mormons will have better things to do with their lives than care about Twilight because they know that almost everything(fiction and non fiction) is a better love story than Twilight.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 23:24:57 GMT
Rey.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Mar 23, 2018 23:38:10 GMT
Since Rey has been mentioned a whole bunch of times, let my nominate someone else: Honor Harrington She didn't really start out that way, but as the series progressed, she became Practically Perfect in Every Way.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: rohlfdawg
PSN: rohlfdawg83
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Post by heathenoxman on Mar 24, 2018 1:07:55 GMT
Since Rey has been mentioned a whole bunch of times, let my nominate someone else: Honor Harrington She didn't really start out that way, but as the series progressed, she became Practically Perfect in Every Way. Couldn't stand those novels..... Ugh.
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