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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 19:59:33 GMT
Dragon Age should have it's own moral values, perhaps different to our own, and then be true to those going forward. I feel like they achieved that with DAO, but then started to lean further left as time went on and impose IRL values into a supposedly early medieval fantasy world. It ruins the immersion for me. Even if they do something despicable, if it's right for that world, then fine. What in game did you think was “too left”? I didn’t think anything in Inquisition seemed contradictory to what we previously knew about the world. Comparing Thedas to the real world medieval period seems off base to me, since morality in the real world and Thedas are based on entirely different faith based doctrines. The real medieval times have literally nothing to do with Thedas and where they derive their morality.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 23, 2019 20:00:29 GMT
Dragon Age should have it's own moral values, perhaps different to our own, and then be true to those going forward. I feel like they achieved that with DAO, but then started to lean further left as time went on and impose IRL values into a supposedly early medieval fantasy world. It ruins the immersion for me. Even if they do something despicable, if it's right for that world, then fine. while i agree part of the reason to do this is to have a conversation. Things can change.
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Post by githcheater on Feb 23, 2019 20:07:33 GMT
I propose two alternatives of my own. One, so you want to do the right thing. That's great, but in reality the right thing isn't always clear, and even when it is doing it is hard. Otherwise everyone would do it all the time. Second, if you want the player to be morally compromised, rather than providing kick the puppy moments that do nothing for them, provide a compelling reason for the player being selfish, as well as risk for the opposite behavior. I agree I think. Dickishness for dickishness sake is pointless ... except perhaps for Darkspawn Chronicles.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 20:15:01 GMT
But in real life we don't kill children who have done monstrous things, because we know better, and because it's evil. I'm still not saying that killing children, raping people, abusing animals and brainwashing gay people with blood magic to be straight should be exempt from video games, but that doing evil things have negative consequences, IN THE CASE OF DRAGON AGE, that is most of the time a heroic story. A freaking, heroic, story. If you want to develop a game where you can sell your children for sex slavery because you need money, rape your wife so she can birth more kids to sell to slavery, kill your lesbian sister for liking women, start a purification of wrong skin colored people without the game acknowledging that these are evil things and that shit might come back to bite you heavily, great, do it, but I don't want Dragon Age specifically to become that. I'm not arguing for those things. I just think its bizarre to set some arbitrary age point where its suddenly ok in a fantasy game to kill an adult regardless of their guilt but its not to kill someone younger even if they've committed vile crimes. Isn't Joffrey 14 in the GOT books when he's killed. And in societies like the one Dragon Age depicts, the age of an adult was a lot younger than in today's world. If at the age of 9 you're supposed to go out and earn a living, are you still a child? So who is and isn't an adult changes from society to society.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 20:19:25 GMT
I propose two alternatives of my own. One, so you want to do the right thing. That's great, but in reality the right thing isn't always clear, and even when it is doing it is hard. Otherwise everyone would do it all the time. Second, if you want the player to be morally compromised, rather than providing kick the puppy moments that do nothing for them, provide a compelling reason for the player being selfish, as well as risk for the opposite behavior. I agree I think. Dickishness for dickishness sake is pointless ... except perhaps for Darkspawn Chronicles. I personally think we should have everything for the sake of variety. Evil choices, pragmatic, complicated, grey decisions, etc etc. The more variety you have, the more you can do and achieve with the creation, customization and agenda of your character. It's not nothing, it's something very good. WTF with the restrictions ? If some think some options are useless, just don't use these options. It's easy. We had that in DAO, I don't see why we couldn't have them with the next DA. As far as I am concerned most people loved DA:O ? I absolutely loved my character being a dick to the dalatian who asked him to help him seducing the girl he likes. His motivation ? To learn him a lesson. A man should not ask another man, especially a stranger he doesn't know to act for him, when it's about asking for a date to a woman. So instead of helping him, he seduced the elf and slept with her. It was nothing, except that yes, there was more with my character ruthless with weak men. He doesn"t like weak men. And yet my character was mostly a nice guy, but hey, he has his flaws too. It was just awesome how many different complicated characters I could do with DAO. In inquisition not so much. Variety is always good, restrictions not so much.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 23, 2019 20:21:27 GMT
If a child is in league with a demon who is raining death and destruction on a nearby village every night, maybe you need to end them to protect everyone else? There's a quest in Assassin's Creed Odyssey where you find some priests in the process of burning down a village and killing everyone there. They claim they're trying to prevent the spread of a disease. There is a family about to be slaughtered, claiming that they feel fine, begging you to save them. If you do, you find out later that the disease has spread to the entire island - and beyond. Okay, you seem to be going with hypotheticals here. I don't recall DA ever allowing the MC to do any of those things, and would be very disappointed if it did. But the thing is, and this is my issue: I generally RP a character who doesn't oppose Dorian's views in slavery, wants to put mages in cages and generally looks down on Dalish wackos. All in all, I like playing a scumbag character, as surprising as it is after my whining about evil. But as we talk about what kind of evil there should be in Dragon Age, and I'm completely fine with the current racial issues and mage issues that take on the symbolism of real life oppression, how can I defend anti-gay, anti-poc, anti-woman remarks being in the game? How can I be fine with one type of issues being brought up, but then don't want other types of issues being brought up that would take away from my experience in the game? This is a battle I have when it comes to talking about evil in RPGs and evil choices. If we allow one type of oppression and evil to exist, why isn't being an evil son of a bitch permitted in other ways? I think you're basing this on what you, personally, view as evil through the filters of your personal experiences and the culture in which you live. Thedas as a whole, along with each individual nation, faction, group, etc. has its own morality that is different from yours. I would also point out that individual members of groups aren't homogenous in their views. Wynne, Bethany, and Vivienne support the Circles, whereas Morrigan, Anders, et. al. do not. City Elves are different from the Dalish, and surface dwarves have apparently lost their stone sense. Having these different points of view represented in-game allows us to examine them and draw parallels to real life that can help us develop better understandings and empathy as well as help us hone our own value and morality systems. We also need to recognize that in a cRPG, your character's possible actions and responses are necessarily going to be limited. The devs cannot possibly support every possibility as the universe of possibilities is nearly infinite. They have to whittle things down to the choices they feel would be most meaningful to the player and they're willing to supply appropriate consequences for. Sometimes, they may guess wrong. I don't really know what else to tell you.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 20:30:57 GMT
I'm not arguing for those things. I just think its bizarre to set some arbitrary age point where its suddenly ok in a fantasy game to kill an adult regardless of their guilt but its not to kill someone younger even if they've committed vile crimes. Isn't Joffrey 14 in the GOT books when he's killed. And in societies like the one Dragon Age depicts, the age of an adult was a lot younger than in today's world. If at the age of 9 you're supposed to go out and earn a living, are you still a child? So who is and isn't an adult changes from society to society. Nothing in the DA world actually implies they have a vastly different idea of what an “adult” is. You don’t see children in the armies of Thedas, even in crisis. You don’t really see much for child labor. The refugee children in Kirkwall are framed as something shocking and unusual for the world, not really something everyone sees as normal. Most nobles don’t seem pressured to marry until they’re well into adulthood. In the Last Flight books the wardens are reluctant to join teenagers from the Circle. All the information in game implies they see adulthood similarly to our society.
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
Posts: 1,632 Likes: 2,469
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Sept 8, 2016 12:06:29 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 23, 2019 20:36:10 GMT
We had that in DAO, I don't see why we couldn't have them with the next DA. As far as I am concerned most people loved DA:O ? I absolutely loved my character being a dick to the dalatian who asked him to help him seducing the girl he likes. His motivation ? To learn him a lesson. A man should not ask another man, especially a stranger he doesn't know to act for him, when it's about asking for a date to a woman. So instead of helping him, he seduced the elf and slept with her. It was nothing, except that yes, there was more with my character ruthless with weak men. He doesn"t like weak men. And yet my character was mostly a nice guy, but hey, he has his flaws too. It was just awesome how many different complicated characters I could do with DAO. In inquisition not so much. Variety is always good, restrictions not so much. My Warden just had a thing for redheads.
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Top
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Feb 23, 2019 20:37:32 GMT
But the thing is, and this is my issue: I generally RP a character who doesn't oppose Dorian's views in slavery, wants to put mages in cages and generally looks down on Dalish wackos. All in all, I like playing a scumbag character, as surprising as it is after my whining about evil. But as we talk about what kind of evil there should be in Dragon Age, and I'm completely fine with the current racial issues and mage issues that take on the symbolism of real life oppression, how can I defend anti-gay, anti-poc, anti-woman remarks being in the game? How can I be fine with one type of issues being brought up, but then don't want other types of issues being brought up that would take away from my experience in the game? This is a battle I have when it comes to talking about evil in RPGs and evil choices. If we allow one type of oppression and evil to exist, why isn't being an evil son of a bitch permitted in other ways? I think you're basing this on what you, personally, view as evil through the filters of your personal experiences and the culture in which you live. Thedas as a whole, along with each individual nation, faction, group, etc. has its own morality that is different from yours. I would also point out that individual members of groups aren't homogenous in their views. Wynne, Bethany, and Vivienne support the Circles, whereas Morrigan, Anders, et. al. do not. City Elves are different from the Dalish, and surface dwarves have apparently lost their stone sense. Having these different points of view represented in-game allows us to examine them and draw parallels to real life that can help us develop better understandings and empathy as well as help us hone our own value and morality systems. We also need to recognize that in a cRPG, your character's possible actions and responses are necessarily going to be limited. The devs cannot possibly support every possibility as the universe of possibilities is nearly infinite. They have to whittle things down to the choices they feel would be most meaningful to the player and they're willing to supply appropriate consequences for. Sometimes, they may guess wrong. I don't really know what else to tell you. Bethany never supports the Circles. Absolutely against them. Her view is clear. Her behaviour is sad: a martyr. It's the part of the story. Bethany accepts her fate, even if hates it. If Hawke thinks, she's "happy" there, the saddest thing about their "good" relationship. Absolutely fits the DA2 story. Hawke can turn against her – and consider it as a protection. "For her sake". And she smiles, and hughs hm/her if doesn't let the madwoman kill her. This is dark. (Also Wynne's and Vivienne's views are totally different.)
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 20:37:46 GMT
And in societies like the one Dragon Age depicts, the age of an adult was a lot younger than in today's world. If at the age of 9 you're supposed to go out and earn a living, are you still a child? So who is and isn't an adult changes from society to society. Nothing in the DA world actually implies they have a vastly different idea of what an “adult” is. You don’t see children in the armies of Thedas, even in crisis. You don’t really see much for child labor. The refugee children in Kirkwall are framed as something shocking and unusual for the world, not really something everyone sees as normal. Most nobles don’t seem pressured to marry until they’re well into adulthood. In the Last Flight books the wardens are reluctant to join teenagers from the Circle. All the information in game implies they see adulthood similarly to our society. Which is ridiculous considering our current view of adulthood relates to our school education system (18) that THEDAS does not have, or related to driving matters (21) which THEDAS also does not have. Which is one of the problems of inserting real life things in worlds where they do not fit. Also for a world that has a lot of resource problems (food, money, fighting power) it is very unrealistic to set aside a very capable group for no other reason than ...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2019 20:38:05 GMT
We had that in DAO, I don't see why we couldn't have them with the next DA. As far as I am concerned most people loved DA:O ? I absolutely loved my character being a dick to the dalatian who asked him to help him seducing the girl he likes. His motivation ? To learn him a lesson. A man should not ask another man, especially a stranger he doesn't know to act for him, when it's about asking for a date to a woman. So instead of helping him, he seduced the elf and slept with her. It was nothing, except that yes, there was more with my character ruthless with weak men. He doesn"t like weak men. And yet my character was mostly a nice guy, but hey, he has his flaws too. It was just awesome how many different complicated characters I could do with DAO. In inquisition not so much. Variety is always good, restrictions not so much. My Warden just had a thing for redheads. But he is still being a dick by stoling the woman of that guy that asked his help.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 20:44:50 GMT
Nothing in the DA world actually implies they have a vastly different idea of what an “adult” is. You don’t see children in the armies of Thedas, even in crisis. You don’t really see much for child labor. The refugee children in Kirkwall are framed as something shocking and unusual for the world, not really something everyone sees as normal. Most nobles don’t seem pressured to marry until they’re well into adulthood. In the Last Flight books the wardens are reluctant to join teenagers from the Circle. All the information in game implies they see adulthood similarly to our society. Which is ridiculous considering our current view of adulthood relates to our school education system (18) that THEDAS does not have, or related to driving matters (21) which THEDAS also does not have. Which is one of the problems of inserting real life things in worlds where they do not fit. Also for a world that has a lot of resource problems (food, money, fighting power) it is very unrealistic to set aside a very capable group for no other reason than ... I mean, not really. We base those things on human development, not the other way around. lol Low life expectancies was the main reason people in the past had to act in adult ways before the brain fully matured. Thedas has magical healing and techniques that prolong lives more than our world did in medieval times, but people need to stop equating Thedas with our world in that time period just because it has dragons and some medieval imagery. It’s not actually historically or culturally relevant.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 20:46:39 GMT
Which is ridiculous considering our current view of adulthood relates to our school education system (18) that THEDAS does not have, or related to driving matters (21) which THEDAS also does not have. Which is one of the problems of inserting real life things in worlds where they do not fit. Also for a world that has a lot of resource problems (food, money, fighting power) it is very unrealistic to set aside a very capable group for no other reason than ... I mean, not really. We base those things on human development, not the other way around. lol Low life expectancies was the main reason people in the past had to act in adult ways before the brain fully matured. Thedas has magical healing and techniques that prolong lives more than our world did in medieval times, but people need to stop equating Thedas with our world in that time period just because it has dragons and some medieval imagery. It’s not actually historically or culturally relevant. The brain doesn't full mature until well into your 20s. Some researchers believe 25. Our age of adulthood does not correlate to either physical or mental maturity.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 23, 2019 20:47:53 GMT
Which is ridiculous considering our current view of adulthood relates to our school education system (18) that THEDAS does not have, or related to driving matters (21) which THEDAS also does not have. Which is one of the problems of inserting real life things in worlds where they do not fit. Also for a world that has a lot of resource problems (food, money, fighting power) it is very unrealistic to set aside a very capable group for no other reason than ... I mean, not really. We base those things on human development, not the other way around. lol Low life expectancies was the main reason people in the past had to act in adult ways before the brain fully matured. Thedas has magical healing and techniques that prolong lives more than our world did in medieval times, but people need to stop equating Thedas with our world in that time period just because it has dragons and some medieval imagery. It’s not actually historically or culturally relevant. but it is parallel.
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
Posts: 1,632 Likes: 2,469
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Sept 8, 2016 12:06:29 GMT
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 23, 2019 20:48:33 GMT
My Warden just had a thing for redheads. But he is still being a dick by stoling the woman of that guy that asked his help.
Sleeping with an unattached woman, some random fellow you barely met wants to sleep with doesn't seem so. Going back and boast of it, yeah that is.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 20:53:38 GMT
I mean, not really. We base those things on human development, not the other way around. lol Low life expectancies was the main reason people in the past had to act in adult ways before the brain fully matured. Thedas has magical healing and techniques that prolong lives more than our world did in medieval times, but people need to stop equating Thedas with our world in that time period just because it has dragons and some medieval imagery. It’s not actually historically or culturally relevant. The brain doesn't full mature until well into your 20s. Some researchers believe 25. Our age of adulthood does not correlate to either physical or mental maturity. Studies suggest women mature neurologically in their early 20s and men in their mid 20s, but that doesn’t mean an 18 year old brain is exactly like a 9 year old brain. I’m not sure it’s really been stated in DA that exactly 18 is the age of adulthood. It seems like Dorian and a lot of nobles are considered barely at adulthood well that into their 20s. I’m just not sure what we’re “losing” here. It makes sense in a world where life expectancy is high for adulthood to be pushed higher. That’s what the real world reflects. Not to mention, a game supporting child abuse, child labor and pedophilia isn’t going to get a great response from mainstream audiences.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 20:56:45 GMT
I mean, not really. We base those things on human development, not the other way around. lol Low life expectancies was the main reason people in the past had to act in adult ways before the brain fully matured. Thedas has magical healing and techniques that prolong lives more than our world did in medieval times, but people need to stop equating Thedas with our world in that time period just because it has dragons and some medieval imagery. It’s not actually historically or culturally relevant. but it is parallel. How? Medieval Europe derived their morality almost entirely from Christianity, which doesn’t exist in Thedas. There isn’t really a parallel. In the most vague sense on ideas like “bigotry exists”, but never towards the same groups for the same reasons. Thedas only really has imagery in common with real historical Europe.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by ArcadiaGrey on Feb 23, 2019 20:57:25 GMT
Dragon Age should have it's own moral values, perhaps different to our own, and then be true to those going forward. I feel like they achieved that with DAO, but then started to lean further left as time went on and impose IRL values into a supposedly early medieval fantasy world. It ruins the immersion for me. Even if they do something despicable, if it's right for that world, then fine. What in game did you think was “too left”? I didn’t think anything in Inquisition seemed contradictory to what we previously knew about the world. Comparing Thedas to the real world medieval period seems off base to me, since morality in the real world and Thedas are based on entirely different faith based doctrines. The real medieval times have literally nothing to do with Thedas and where they derive their morality. In DAO I felt like the world had realism, due in part to the grubby, racist, unfair experiences of the people. It drew parallels with the real world which would differ depending on the player and their own life experiences, and I appreciated that. The elves were lower working class people from the North of England to me who are being abused by the rich, like my ancestors. To others they're black people in America or another minority. This is a sign of great storytelling, we all get something different from it. Then in DA2 it got a bit mushy with Anders, but still kept true to DAO. But in DAI I remember feeling like I was being preached to, just a little bit here and there. I became aware of the writer's intent, instead of being immersed in the story they were telling. The Qunari are a good example of this, Iron Bull's explanations of them differ from my experience of the Arishok, Sten and the attack on Kirkwall. I felt like they'd been washed over with a thin veil of modern ideals. Krem was great, at first I rolled my eyes as I felt this was a publicity stunt, but in fact his story informed the player about Tevinter and it's social classes, slavery, and attitude to women. In general it was just a....vague instinct that the writer was going for a particular narrative that seemed quite 2014, a story informed by the Twitter-sphere and hashtags. Just a teensy bit mind you, DAI is still my favourite of the 3. This became way more obvious in Andromeda, I didn't have enough facepalm emojis for the Angara asking what pronouns the Asari used. To me this ages the game terribly, as ME should be a game about the future but instead it was hitting the hot topics of 2015. Anyway, just my opinion. And I say the medieval world because I remember, right when I first played Origins, a reference saying that the world was based on 12th Century England. Not sure if it was accurate but it's always stuck with me, could just be a misunderstanding though.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 20:57:43 GMT
The brain doesn't full mature until well into your 20s. Some researchers believe 25. Our age of adulthood does not correlate to either physical or mental maturity. Studies suggest women mature neurologically in their early 20s and men in their mid 20s, but that doesn’t mean an 18 year old brain is exactly like a 9 year old brain. I’m not sure it’s really been stated in DA that exactly 18 is the age of adulthood. It seems like Dorian and a lot of nobles are considered barely at adulthood well that into their 20s. I’m just not sure what we’re “losing” here. It makes sense in a world where life expectancy is high for adulthood to be pushed higher. That’s what the real world reflects. Not to mention, a game supporting child abuse, child labor and pedophilia isn’t going to get a great response from mainstream audiences. It means we don't consider mental maturation the point of adulthood, we are considered adults at that age for other reasons. Most likely because 18 is when we graduate from school. And therefore there is no reason for THEDAS, a setting which has no formalised school system like we do, to have comparative views on the point of adulthood. Even if we did base our view of adulthood on mental maturity, which we don't, I would play the game and "how on earth did these backward yokels figure out the mental maturation point of a human being?" What we lose out on is in game realism. In a world which is still devoid of resources, overlooking a fine group of potential workers for reasons that can only be attributed to the moralities of another world, breaks suspension of disbelief for me.
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Polka Dot
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
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Feb 14, 2019 20:07:41 GMT
1,207
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679
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 23, 2019 21:04:21 GMT
I think you're basing this on what you, personally, view as evil through the filters of your personal experiences and the culture in which you live.
Thedas as a whole, along with each individual nation, faction, group, etc. has its own morality that is different from yours.
I would also point out that individual members of groups aren't homogenous in their views. Wynne, Bethany, and Vivienne support the Circles, whereas Morrigan, Anders, et. al. do not. City Elves are different from the Dalish, and surface dwarves have apparently lost their stone sense.
Having these different points of view represented in-game allows us to examine them and draw parallels to real life that can help us develop better understandings and empathy as well as help us hone our own value and morality systems.
We also need to recognize that in a cRPG, your character's possible actions and responses are necessarily going to be limited. The devs cannot possibly support every possibility as the universe of possibilities is nearly infinite. They have to whittle things down to the choices they feel would be most meaningful to the player and they're willing to supply appropriate consequences for. Sometimes, they may guess wrong.
I don't really know what else to tell you. Bethany never supports the Circles. Absolutely against them. Her view is clear. Her behaviour is sad: a martyr. It's the part of the story. Bethany accepts her fate, even if hates it. If Hawke thinks, she's "happy" there, the saddest thing about their "good" relationship. Absolutely fits the DA2 story. Hawke can turn against her – and consider it as a protection. "For her sake". And she smiles, and hughs hinóm/her if doesn't let the madwoman kill her. This is dark. Also Wynne's and Vivienne's views are totally different.) Whatever. She's willing to go without a fight and makes the best of it.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 21:08:40 GMT
And I say the medieval world because I remember, right when I first played Origins, a reference saying that the world was based on 12th Century England. Not sure if it was accurate but it's always stuck with me, could just be a misunderstanding though. The 12th century reference was probably just for Ferelden. Orlais looks fairly renaissance France.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Catilina on Feb 23, 2019 21:11:56 GMT
Bethany never supports the Circles. Absolutely against them. Her view is clear. Her behaviour is sad: a martyr. It's the part of the story. Bethany accepts her fate, even if hates it. If Hawke thinks, she's "happy" there, the saddest thing about their "good" relationship. Absolutely fits the DA2 story. Hawke can turn against her – and consider it as a protection. "For her sake". And she smiles, and hughs hinóm/her if doesn't let the madwoman kill her. This is dark. Also Wynne's and Vivienne's views are totally different.) Whatever. She's willing to go without a fight and makes the best of it. It's not whatever: she's able to sacrifice herself for her family. And yes, she's able to smile, and to get the best out of everything. Willingly – a martyr. People use this type to consume their conscience with this smile. I think this is a part of the dark story as well – she's the Sunshine, even if she hates. But perhaps it's just my interpretation.
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 23, 2019 21:32:59 GMT
Conflicting choices in games give the game meaning. I'm someone who dislikes the concept of dick choices for the sole purpose of dick choices, but there is nothing wrong with harsh choices for the sake of my all-important mission, not suffering the stupidity of pretentious idiots.
Take Connor in Redcliffe, for instance. Learning advanced blood magic from the demon would actually be useful (although it would have been cool if the demon had given voice to that). The blood mage offering the ritual to kill the city elves to bolster my Constitution was a great dark choice (albeit mechanically not worth it to warrant doing since it seemed really weak).
Inqusition never gave us these choices. Sure, placing flowers on a dead woman's grave for her widower has no need to offer a choice, but what about that quest where the templar killed the lady's husband, and we had to get the wedding ring. What if that ring really was magical, and we could either return it or keep it. And not just magical, but let's say it was like the Dawn/Dusk Ring from Origins and gives a hefty bonus when paired with its partner. What if during the quest to get blankets, we could either find caches from bad guys, or find a really easy way to steal from the people of Redcliffe, since they might not even miss it. For ram meat, what if some of the creatures had mange or something and I had to be choosy, or potentially give tainted meat.
These are minor choices for minor quests. It tells us more about the character we play both from the choices we can come up with, and the choice we ultimately make. Are we Paragons? Do we cheat because we think we're getting conned? Because we can't be bothered? Do we think we're being lied to. These are things Inquisition lacked.
Not helping matters was the handling of identity politics. Krem was very ham-fistedly written (and I think the devs admitted this). The concept of transgender flew in the face of Sten's dialogue options and established lore so Bull had a serious problem. It also didn't seem to serve a purpose other than "muh representation", and the fact that the choice to think Krem is deluded wasn't allowed because "we weren't allowed to be hurtful." In that very same game, I could lie to an advisor and not hunt the creature she asks for, put a man on dangerous mind-destroying drugs, and that's just people who are closer to me than Krem is.
I'm not interested in the arbitrary constraints of the devs world view. I can choose whether or not I oppose slavery, I don't need the devs to do it for me.
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Post by duskwanderer on Feb 23, 2019 21:33:45 GMT
What in game did you think was “too left”? I didn’t think anything in Inquisition seemed contradictory to what we previously knew about the world. Comparing Thedas to the real world medieval period seems off base to me, since morality in the real world and Thedas are based on entirely different faith based doctrines. The real medieval times have literally nothing to do with Thedas and where they derive their morality. In DAO I felt like the world had realism, due in part to the grubby, racist, unfair experiences of the people. It drew parallels with the real world which would differ depending on the player and their own life experiences, and I appreciated that. The elves were lower working class people from the North of England to me who are being abused by the rich, like my ancestors. To others they're black people in America or another minority. This is a sign of great storytelling, we all get something different from it. Then in DA2 it got a bit mushy with Anders, but still kept true to DAO. But in DAI I remember feeling like I was being preached to, just a little bit here and there. I became aware of the writer's intent, instead of being immersed in the story they were telling. The Qunari are a good example of this, Iron Bull's explanations of them differ from my experience of the Arishok, Sten and the attack on Kirkwall. I felt like they'd been washed over with a thin veil of modern ideals. Krem was great, at first I rolled my eyes as I felt this was a publicity stunt, but in fact his story informed the player about Tevinter and it's social classes, slavery, and attitude to women. In general it was just a....vague instinct that the writer was going for a particular narrative that seemed quite 2014, a story informed by the Twitter-sphere and hashtags. Just a teensy bit mind you, DAI is still my favourite of the 3. This became way more obvious in Andromeda, I didn't have enough facepalm emojis for the Angara asking what pronouns the Asari used. To me this ages the game terribly, as ME should be a game about the future but instead it was hitting the hot topics of 2015. Anyway, just my opinion. And I say the medieval world because I remember, right when I first played Origins, a reference saying that the world was based on 12th Century England. Not sure if it was accurate but it's always stuck with me, could just be a misunderstanding though. I think there are too many literate people for that. It felt fairly Renaissance to me.
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Post by river82 on Feb 23, 2019 21:36:31 GMT
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