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Post by Sifr on Feb 23, 2019 21:45:27 GMT
Playing the whiter then white hero was always my thing, but DAO taught me that a few flaws actually made for a better hero. Agree entirely, despite playing as a more "heroic" type, my Inquisitors and Wardens tend to be rather Machiavellian at times. That includes occasionally letting some former enemies (who might be downright evil) live, if only because they have useful information/skills that justifies keeping them around as an asset.
Heck, even when playing RPGs that do let you go full villain, I typically play instead more of a pragmatic one. If I treated my forces as disposable cannon fodder, then every battle would leave me weaker than I started it! And if I needlessly slaughtered everyone during my conquest, then I can only pat myself on the back for becoming the mayor of a graveyard? If I'm going to be evil, I'm not going to be stupid about it.
I enjoy when games let you have the option/freedom to mix it up like that, so that you can play heroes who's actions sometimes make them seem more like the villain, or villains who actions can seem borderline heroic.
Whatever. She's willing to go without a fight and makes the best of it. As Cullen states when he collects her, Bethany's choice to turn herself into the Circle spared her family any punishment for knowingly harbouring an apostate. We repeatedly are shown that Bethany worries and fears getting caught and feels like a burden for her family. Even if it her sense of guilt that drove her to play the martyr and turn herself in, she knew that it wasn't for nothing, as her family wouldn't be punished.
We don't really know how Bethany handles her time in the Circle. According to her letters and Leandra's visits, she seems to be doing well, but that may only be her putting on a brave face for her family's sake. All we can really say is that she seems to have tried to keep her head down, avoid getting the attention of the worst Templars (like Ser Alrik) and focus on teaching the younger apprentices.
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Polka Dot
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 679 Likes: 1,207
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 23, 2019 21:56:41 GMT
Whatever. She's willing to go without a fight and makes the best of it. It's not whatever From my perspective, yeah, it really is. You brought up arguments I didn't experience or simply don't remember from a game I played 8 years ago. I'm simply not interested in pedantic OT arguments over one small detail from a post with several other supporting arguments. Sorry, but I'm done with this discussion.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 23, 2019 22:10:23 GMT
How? Medieval Europe derived their morality almost entirely from Christianity, which doesn’t exist in Thedas. There isn’t really a parallel. In the most vague sense on ideas like “bigotry exists”, but never towards the same groups for the same reasons. Thedas only really has imagery in common with real historical Europe. the chantry is, essentially in function anyways, the Catholic church. And most of the nations seem to be pretty much one to one with a real life equivalent. As are the religioms, histories, and cultures seem to be pulled right from real life. The specific timeline might be a little wonky but even then. Only three things which dont matchup all that well, to my knowledge anyways, are the Dalish, magi situation, and the Darkspawn. And thats one of the things i love about DA. Its our world, or at least a mirror of Europe around the same time period, but with enough differences...both sweeping and with nuance, that we can have an actual philosophical conversation. Even the "homophobia" of Tevinter, while its something that many face IRL, is different enough that it has interesting ramifications. Tevinter is concerned with preserving bloodlines, nothing more.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 22:37:46 GMT
What in game did you think was “too left”? I didn’t think anything in Inquisition seemed contradictory to what we previously knew about the world. Comparing Thedas to the real world medieval period seems off base to me, since morality in the real world and Thedas are based on entirely different faith based doctrines. The real medieval times have literally nothing to do with Thedas and where they derive their morality. In DAO I felt like the world had realism, due in part to the grubby, racist, unfair experiences of the people. It drew parallels with the real world which would differ depending on the player and their own life experiences, and I appreciated that. The elves were lower working class people from the North of England to me who are being abused by the rich, like my ancestors. To others they're black people in America or another minority. This is a sign of great storytelling, we all get something different from it. Then in DA2 it got a bit mushy with Anders, but still kept true to DAO. But in DAI I remember feeling like I was being preached to, just a little bit here and there. I became aware of the writer's intent, instead of being immersed in the story they were telling. The Qunari are a good example of this, Iron Bull's explanations of them differ from my experience of the Arishok, Sten and the attack on Kirkwall. I felt like they'd been washed over with a thin veil of modern ideals. Krem was great, at first I rolled my eyes as I felt this was a publicity stunt, but in fact his story informed the player about Tevinter and it's social classes, slavery, and attitude to women. In general it was just a....vague instinct that the writer was going for a particular narrative that seemed quite 2014, a story informed by the Twitter-sphere and hashtags. Just a teensy bit mind you, DAI is still my favourite of the 3. This became way more obvious in Andromeda, I didn't have enough facepalm emojis for the Angara asking what pronouns the Asari used. To me this ages the game terribly, as ME should be a game about the future but instead it was hitting the hot topics of 2015. Anyway, just my opinion. And I say the medieval world because I remember, right when I first played Origins, a reference saying that the world was based on 12th Century England. Not sure if it was accurate but it's always stuck with me, could just be a misunderstanding though. I think Iron Bull was supposed to be a more “normal” person in the qun. The Arishok is their military leader and Sten is the new Arishok. I think it makes sense that they have the most traditional, hardline views about the qun. But Tallis in DA2 already suggested not everyone was so inflexible. The qunari lands are thousands of people in multiple countries, racially qunari people and converts of all races. I think it makes more sense that people in those lands interpret the qun differently and some have more literal, hardline views than others. I don’t think Iron Bull (or Tallis) we’re meant to say the Arishok and Sten were retconned, but to offer an example of how not everyone who follows the qun is the same, just like every other culture in Thedas. They’re the qun at their most fundamentalist, which makes sense to me, considering their backgrounds.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 23, 2019 22:50:05 GMT
Studies suggest women mature neurologically in their early 20s and men in their mid 20s, but that doesn’t mean an 18 year old brain is exactly like a 9 year old brain. I’m not sure it’s really been stated in DA that exactly 18 is the age of adulthood. It seems like Dorian and a lot of nobles are considered barely at adulthood well that into their 20s. I’m just not sure what we’re “losing” here. It makes sense in a world where life expectancy is high for adulthood to be pushed higher. That’s what the real world reflects. Not to mention, a game supporting child abuse, child labor and pedophilia isn’t going to get a great response from mainstream audiences. It means we don't consider mental maturation the point of adulthood, we are considered adults at that age for other reasons. Most likely because 18 is when we graduate from school. And therefore there is no reason for THEDAS, a setting which has no formalised school system like we do, to have comparative views on the point of adulthood. Even if we did base our view of adulthood on mental maturity, which we don't, I would play the game and "how on earth did these backward yokels figure out the mental maturation point of a human being?" What we lose out on is in game realism. In a world which is still devoid of resources, overlooking a fine group of potential workers for reasons that can only be attributed to the moralities of another world, breaks suspension of disbelief for me. It’s not like it takes advanced scientific understanding to look at a 9 year old, or spend three minutes talking to one, and realize this person is not as physically or mentally developed as someone in their late teens or early twenties. It’s pretty realistic to me that the societies in DA would get that. The exact point that people emotionally develop isn’t really as important and it’s not like DA spells out what they consider an adult. It might be 18, 20, 25, who can guess? It’s not like real world human society has one age, either. Different countries have different ages of adulthood and individual countries often have different ages for different things. But there’s a little point where you have to realize this is an entertainment product for the modern world and to a certain extent they’re going to mostly bend to what real life audiences will buy. I think it’s realistic in a world where we routinely see older soldiers with grayed hair and wrinkles we can assume life expectancy is high enough that adulthood could be in the late teens to twenties. It’s not unrealistic to write a different world where your character is rewarded in 9 year old child brides, but the fact is most people hate pedophilia and will be grossed out by it. That’s not going to sell games, so they might as well stick with “adults are late teens to mid twenties somewhere” and make it work in context.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Feb 23, 2019 22:54:45 GMT
This thread is temporarily locked while moderators discuss a couple of reports.
Do not take this discussion elsewhere until this thread is re-opened.
------------------------------------------
And we're now open again.
The 'rape vs consent' discussion has been removed. This thread's topic is a worthwhile and relevant one.
Do not derail with with topics of this nature again, thank you, or the thread will have to be permanently locked. Please keep discussion here centred around how Patrick Weekes will handle the Dragon Age franchise going forward.
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Post by river82 on Feb 24, 2019 1:26:48 GMT
It means we don't consider mental maturation the point of adulthood, we are considered adults at that age for other reasons. Most likely because 18 is when we graduate from school. And therefore there is no reason for THEDAS, a setting which has no formalised school system like we do, to have comparative views on the point of adulthood. Even if we did base our view of adulthood on mental maturity, which we don't, I would play the game and "how on earth did these backward yokels figure out the mental maturation point of a human being?" What we lose out on is in game realism. In a world which is still devoid of resources, overlooking a fine group of potential workers for reasons that can only be attributed to the moralities of another world, breaks suspension of disbelief for me. It’s not like it takes advanced scientific understanding to look at a 9 year old, or spend three minutes talking to one, and realize this person is not as physically or mentally developed as someone in their late teens or early twenties. It’s pretty realistic to me that the societies in DA would get that. The exact point that people emotionally develop isn’t really as important and it’s not like DA spells out what they consider an adult. It might be 18, 20, 25, who can guess? It’s not like real world human society has one age, either. Different countries have different ages of adulthood and individual countries often have different ages for different things. But there’s a little point where you have to realize this is an entertainment product for the modern world and to a certain extent they’re going to mostly bend to what real life audiences will buy. I think it’s realistic in a world where we routinely see older soldiers with grayed hair and wrinkles we can assume life expectancy is high enough that adulthood could be in the late teens to twenties. It’s not unrealistic to write a different world where your character is rewarded in 9 year old child brides, but the fact is most people hate pedophilia and will be grossed out by it. That’s not going to sell games, so they might as well stick with “adults are late teens to mid twenties somewhere” and make it work in context. You are repeatedly attempting to define adulthood as a state achieved once we've neared complete physical or mental development and there is nothing to suggest we have ever treated adulthood as such. As I continue to say, if we treated adulthood as being fully mentally developed the age of adulthood would not be 18. So trying to shoehorn this definition into THEDAS doesn't work. Especially considering there is no reason for it to be. The definition of adult gravitates much more strongly to the age where you're expected to undertake more responsibility. In a world often onset by wars and everything else, there is no evidence that life expectancy in THEDAS is especially high. Even with magic, which is restricted. Much of the world is still poor, and there's little security for families from their government. Which means people will often turn to their children for security, giving them more responsibility at a younger age, and reducing the age of adulthood.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 24, 2019 1:32:04 GMT
How? Medieval Europe derived their morality almost entirely from Christianity, which doesn’t exist in Thedas. There isn’t really a parallel. In the most vague sense on ideas like “bigotry exists”, but never towards the same groups for the same reasons. Thedas only really has imagery in common with real historical Europe. the chantry is, essentially in function anyways, the Catholic church. And most of the nations seem to be pretty much one to one with a real life equivalent. As are the religioms, histories, and cultures seem to be pulled right from real life. The specific timeline might be a little wonky but even then. Only three things which dont matchup all that well, to my knowledge anyways, are the Dalish, magi situation, and the Darkspawn. And thats one of the things i love about DA. Its our world, or at least a mirror of Europe around the same time period, but with enough differences...both sweeping and with nuance, that we can have an actual philosophical conversation. Even the "homophobia" of Tevinter, while its something that many face IRL, is different enough that it has interesting ramifications. Tevinter is concerned with preserving bloodlines, nothing more. The Chantry is incomparably different in ways that have social effects on western societies even today, though. There’s no Chantry doctrine that condemns homosexuality the way Abrahamic religions do, so any homophobia is down to much more changeable social norms in individual societies. Tevinter doesn’t allow same sex bonds because they put so much cultural impact on breeding, but they don’t view the act as at all morally wrong. Sexism is another area that can’t be compared in Thedas. The Chantry’s existence hinges on a female leader. No religion in Thedas claims women should be subservient to men. It’s a massive piece of real world social politics that just doesn’t exist in Thedas in the same context. Races (by skin tone) have always been integrated, taking out another massive obstacle for social politics in the real world. The problem isn’t that there are some historical similarities, like the militarized Templar army and the Catholic Church or assassinations and Southern Europe, but when you suggest there isn’t a realistic amount of bigotry based on the political climate of medieval Europe it misses the fact that the actual doctrine of the Chantry (or Dalish religion, or even the Qun) have not even tenuous connections to the real world texts that created that bigotry. The context just isn’t there for it in Thedas. Their reasons and prejudices exist for entirely different reasons.
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Post by colfoley on Feb 24, 2019 1:49:50 GMT
the chantry is, essentially in function anyways, the Catholic church. And most of the nations seem to be pretty much one to one with a real life equivalent. As are the religioms, histories, and cultures seem to be pulled right from real life. The specific timeline might be a little wonky but even then. Only three things which dont matchup all that well, to my knowledge anyways, are the Dalish, magi situation, and the Darkspawn. And thats one of the things i love about DA. Its our world, or at least a mirror of Europe around the same time period, but with enough differences...both sweeping and with nuance, that we can have an actual philosophical conversation. Even the "homophobia" of Tevinter, while its something that many face IRL, is different enough that it has interesting ramifications. Tevinter is concerned with preserving bloodlines, nothing more. The Chantry is incomparably different in ways that have social effects on western societies even today, though. There’s no Chantry doctrine that condemns homosexuality the way Abrahamic religions do, so any homophobia is down to much more changeable social norms in individual societies. Tevinter doesn’t allow same sex bonds because they put so much cultural impact on breeding, but they don’t view the act as at all morally wrong. Sexism is another area that can’t be compared in Thedas. The Chantry’s existence hinges on a female leader. No religion in Thedas claims women should be subservient to men. It’s a massive piece of real world social politics that just doesn’t exist in Thedas in the same context. Races (by skin tone) have always been integrated, taking out another massive obstacle for social politics in the real world. The problem isn’t that there are some historical similarities, like the militarized Templar army and the Catholic Church or assassinations and Southern Europe, but when you suggest there isn’t a realistic amount of bigotry based on the political climate of medieval Europe it misses the fact that the actual doctrine of the Chantry (or Dalish religion, or even the Qun) have not even tenuous connections to the real world texts that created that bigotry. The context just isn’t there for it in Thedas. Their reasons and prejudices exist for entirely different reasons. Which is part of the point. I said it was a mirror not EVERYTHING is copied with exacting detail. Which again was part of the point that I was trying to make...badly apparently. These things exist in both worlds, racism, sexism, bigotry in general, but the context is often different and because of these differences it should encourage us,as an audience, to step back and critically examine such things...not only in Thedas as a whole, but maybe in real life. Which is the great power of fiction allowing us to change the context and give us the ability to consider touchy subjects in the real world...maybe dispassionatley.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 24, 2019 2:19:39 GMT
Can we go back to the part where DA:O allowed wannabe-PUAs to live out their sad little red pill fantasies? Because that discussion was hilarious.
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Obadiah
N5
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: Obadaya
XBL Gamertag: ObadiahPearce
Posts: 2,677 Likes: 3,624
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Post by Obadiah on Feb 24, 2019 2:46:38 GMT
The Chantry is incomparably different in ways that have social effects on western societies even today, though. There’s no Chantry doctrine that condemns homosexuality the way Abrahamic religions do, so any homophobia is down to much more changeable social norms in individual societies. Tevinter doesn’t allow same sex bonds because they put so much cultural impact on breeding, but they don’t view the act as at all morally wrong. Sexism is another area that can’t be compared in Thedas. The Chantry’s existence hinges on a female leader. No religion in Thedas claims women should be subservient to men. It’s a massive piece of real world social politics that just doesn’t exist in Thedas in the same context. Races (by skin tone) have always been integrated, taking out another massive obstacle for social politics in the real world. The problem isn’t that there are some historical similarities, like the militarized Templar army and the Catholic Church or assassinations and Southern Europe, but when you suggest there isn’t a realistic amount of bigotry based on the political climate of medieval Europe it misses the fact that the actual doctrine of the Chantry (or Dalish religion, or even the Qun) have not even tenuous connections to the real world texts that created that bigotry. The context just isn’t there for it in Thedas. Their reasons and prejudices exist for entirely different reasons. Which is part of the point. I said it was a mirror not EVERYTHING is copied with exacting detail. Which again was part of the point that I was trying to make...badly apparently. These things exist in both worlds, racism, sexism, bigotry in general, but the context is often different and because of these differences it should encourage us,as an audience, to step back and critically examine such things...not only in Thedas as a whole, but maybe in real life. Which is the great power of fiction allowing us to change the context and give us the ability to consider touchy subjects in the real world...maybe dispassionatley. ...also, our understanding of the Chantry is only though the congregation's behavior. The dev could always develop an updated or new understanding of the Chantry in the next game. It is so ill-defined, I think it can still be whatever the devs want. Even with the accompanying novels, I'm not sure they did much to develop it any further - I still don't know if there is a 10 Commandments parallel.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 24, 2019 2:55:16 GMT
For a medieval Europe setting, Thedas sure has a buttload of desert.
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 24, 2019 8:18:33 GMT
Which is part of the point. I said it was a mirror not EVERYTHING is copied with exacting detail. Which again was part of the point that I was trying to make...badly apparently. These things exist in both worlds, racism, sexism, bigotry in general, but the context is often different and because of these differences it should encourage us,as an audience, to step back and critically examine such things...not only in Thedas as a whole, but maybe in real life. Which is the great power of fiction allowing us to change the context and give us the ability to consider touchy subjects in the real world...maybe dispassionatley. ...also, our understanding of the Chantry is only though the congregation's behavior. The dev could always develop an updated or new understanding of the Chantry in the next game. It is so ill-defined, I think it can still be whatever the devs want. Even with the accompanying novels, I'm not sure they did much to develop it any further - I still don't know if there is a 10 Commandments parallel. On the contrary. I think the Chantry is rather well-developed for a fictional religious organization. We not only have examples of policy, insights into everyday activity, but also a number of religious texts which give us significant theological context. Furthermore, there is what I call the power of lacking precedent. The Chantry doesn't exist in a vacuum, and many changes, if they were actually significant, would result in people asking "why haven't we seen any effects of that before?" Finally, we can safely assume that codified Chantry ethics, as far as they'd actually be enforced, would reflect the morality of the Thedosian cultures our player characters interact with, and aspects not enforced would be interesting to know about, but they would be just flavor - unless there was an in-world change in policy, and that would go beyond reinterpretation.
Because of that, the scope of changes they can enact without adverse affects on world integrity is limited. Consider the reinterpretation of certain aspects of the Qun as a comparison. We knew considerably less about the Qun and what they changed was still a hard sell and - if we believe their comments - controversial within the dev team exactly because of its possible effects on world integrity.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 24, 2019 8:31:38 GMT
For a medieval Europe setting, Thedas sure has a buttload of desert. Thedas as a whole covers a greater area than that of Europe, extending down at least as far as central Africa. We haven't seen the jungles yet but they are meant to be quite extensive in the north. Also areas such as the Western Approach and Hissing Wastes may not have always been so barren but were rendered that way by previous Blights. The Silent Plains are also barren wastelands and of course the Anderfels have been particularly affected as they are under constant threat of darkspawn surfacing and have been overrun in every Blight. For all we know the desert interior of Antiva might have been caused by the 4th Blight. The only reason Ferelden isn't now a cold desert is likely because the Blight only lasted a year but the area around Lothering was meant to have been suffering the affects long afterwards.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 24, 2019 8:52:58 GMT
I still don't know if there is a 10 Commandments parallel. They do not have a defined list and we have not been offered a grouping of the relevant texts in game, but the extracts from the Chant of Light in World of Thedas 2 do have a set of commandments given under Transfigurations 1. Essentially there a five main commandments: 1) There is no god but the Maker. To worship other false gods is a sin. 2) Magic exists to serve man, never to rule over him. Those who misuse their magic against others will be cursed by the Maker. 3) All men (humans?) are children of the Maker. Those who harm others, without provocation, will be cursed by the Maker. 4) Those who bare false witness and work to deceive others will be judged by the Maker. 5) Stealing is wrong and the Maker grieves to see this when it happens (not such condemnation as for the first 3) However, this may not be an accurate representation of what Andraste taught, as there were numerous oral traditions about this after her death. It is the version that the first Divine chose to adopt and of course she and subsequent Divines have put their own interpretation on what Andraste intended by them. For example, Divine Justinia 1 interpreted number 2 as condemning blood magic outright, whereas it is clear that provided it is not used to harm others it does not actually break this commandment. The use of specific blood magic spells to control minds would be wrong but there are other schools of magic that affect the mind adversely and effectively control the thinking of the person, so it seems likely that there is something to be said for the theory that the blanket condemnation of blood magic was really because the Chantry could not control its use as they could lyrium rather than it is inherently evil. Essentially all magic is a gift of the Maker (except Blight magic) and it is the use to which it is put that determines whether it is good or bad.
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Post by Kaibe on Feb 24, 2019 9:23:13 GMT
I think Weekes will do a good job, but it won’t be like he doesn’t have help. Also, this thread is making me feel nostalgic about the old BSN.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 24, 2019 9:31:30 GMT
Also, this thread is making me feel nostalgic about the old BSN. Sick burn, lol.
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N3
Partying like it's 1999
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Little Bengel on Feb 24, 2019 12:17:39 GMT
...also, our understanding of the Chantry is only though the congregation's behavior. The dev could always develop an updated or new understanding of the Chantry in the next game. It is so ill-defined, I think it can still be whatever the devs want. Even with the accompanying novels, I'm not sure they did much to develop it any further - I still don't know if there is a 10 Commandments parallel. On the contrary. I think the Chantry is rather well-developed for a fictional religious organization. We not only have examples of policy, insights into everyday activity, but also a number of religious texts which give us significant theological context. Furthermore, there is what I call the power of lacking precedent. The Chantry doesn't exist in a vacuum, and many changes, if they were actually significant, would result in people asking "why haven't we seen any effects of that before?" Finally, we can safely assume that codified Chantry ethics, as far as they'd actually be enforced, would reflect the morality of the Thedosian cultures our player characters interact with, and aspects not enforced would be interesting to know about, but they would be just flavor - unless there was an in-world change in policy, and that would go beyond reinterpretation.
Because of that, the scope of changes they can enact without adverse affects on world integrity is limited. Consider the reinterpretation of certain aspects of the Qun as a comparison. We knew considerably less about the Qun and what they changed was still a hard sell and - if we believe their comments - controversial within the dev team exactly because of its possible effects on world integrity. OK, now the bolded part has me curious. Assuming it is what I'm thinking about, where was it said that the dev team was divided on the Qun changes?
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Post by Ieldra on Feb 24, 2019 15:41:18 GMT
On the contrary. I think the Chantry is rather well-developed for a fictional religious organization. We not only have examples of policy, insights into everyday activity, but also a number of religious texts which give us significant theological context. Furthermore, there is what I call the power of lacking precedent. The Chantry doesn't exist in a vacuum, and many changes, if they were actually significant, would result in people asking "why haven't we seen any effects of that before?" Finally, we can safely assume that codified Chantry ethics, as far as they'd actually be enforced, would reflect the morality of the Thedosian cultures our player characters interact with, and aspects not enforced would be interesting to know about, but they would be just flavor - unless there was an in-world change in policy, and that would go beyond reinterpretation.
Because of that, the scope of changes they can enact without adverse affects on world integrity is limited. Consider the reinterpretation of certain aspects of the Qun as a comparison. We knew considerably less about the Qun and what they changed was still a hard sell and - if we believe their comments - controversial within the dev team exactly because of its possible effects on world integrity. OK, now the bolded part has me curious. Assuming it is what I'm thinking about, where was it said that the dev team was divided on the Qun changes? I recall some dev statement that they thought long and hard about whether they could make such a change, and almost didn't. I don't recall where, it's too long ago. There was a link on the old BSN. Of course, it could all be hot air, but I think that some people at Bioware must know their job regarding worldbuilding, or Thedas would look very different, and they would be aware that a reinterpretation of existing lore can be problematic.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 24, 2019 20:15:54 GMT
Which is part of the point. I said it was a mirror not EVERYTHING is copied with exacting detail. Which again was part of the point that I was trying to make...badly apparently. These things exist in both worlds, racism, sexism, bigotry in general, but the context is often different and because of these differences it should encourage us,as an audience, to step back and critically examine such things...not only in Thedas as a whole, but maybe in real life. Which is the great power of fiction allowing us to change the context and give us the ability to consider touchy subjects in the real world...maybe dispassionatley. ...also, our understanding of the Chantry is only though the congregation's behavior. The dev could always develop an updated or new understanding of the Chantry in the next game. It is so ill-defined, I think it can still be whatever the devs want. Even with the accompanying novels, I'm not sure they did much to develop it any further - I still don't know if there is a 10 Commandments parallel. I don't know whether it's considered complete, but quite a bit of the Chant of Light has been revealed. As for the behaviors of professed believers, I know an awful lot of people who claim to follow a particular religion IRL, but you'd never know it by their actions. 'Nuff said about that, as I don't want to cross a line here, but I do question the validity of learning about a religion by observing its supposed adherents.
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Post by Polka Dot on Feb 24, 2019 20:25:40 GMT
The Chantry is incomparably different in ways that have social effects on western societies even today, though. There’s no Chantry doctrine that condemns homosexuality the way Abrahamic religions do, so any homophobia is down to much more changeable social norms in individual societies. Tevinter doesn’t allow same sex bonds because they put so much cultural impact on breeding, but they don’t view the act as at all morally wrong. Sexism is another area that can’t be compared in Thedas. The Chantry’s existence hinges on a female leader. No religion in Thedas claims women should be subservient to men. It’s a massive piece of real world social politics that just doesn’t exist in Thedas in the same context. Races (by skin tone) have always been integrated, taking out another massive obstacle for social politics in the real world. The problem isn’t that there are some historical similarities, like the militarized Templar army and the Catholic Church or assassinations and Southern Europe, but when you suggest there isn’t a realistic amount of bigotry based on the political climate of medieval Europe it misses the fact that the actual doctrine of the Chantry (or Dalish religion, or even the Qun) have not even tenuous connections to the real world texts that created that bigotry. The context just isn’t there for it in Thedas. Their reasons and prejudices exist for entirely different reasons. Which is part of the point. I said it was a mirror not EVERYTHING is copied with exacting detail. Which again was part of the point that I was trying to make...badly apparently. These things exist in both worlds, racism, sexism, bigotry in general, but the context is often different and because of these differences it should encourage us,as an audience, to step back and critically examine such things...not only in Thedas as a whole, but maybe in real life. Which is the great power of fiction allowing us to change the context and give us the ability to consider touchy subjects in the real world...maybe dispassionatley. Since none of it is based on underlying religious beliefs, don't you suppose a lot of it just good old-fashioned tribalism / identity politics / the tendency to see people who are not like you as "the other"? Mind you, I'm not trying to deny that some is also the result of historical events, particularly war/territorial infighting (the Dales, Orlais' occupation of Ferelden, etc.).
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Post by colfoley on Feb 24, 2019 20:33:36 GMT
Which is part of the point. I said it was a mirror not EVERYTHING is copied with exacting detail. Which again was part of the point that I was trying to make...badly apparently. These things exist in both worlds, racism, sexism, bigotry in general, but the context is often different and because of these differences it should encourage us,as an audience, to step back and critically examine such things...not only in Thedas as a whole, but maybe in real life. Which is the great power of fiction allowing us to change the context and give us the ability to consider touchy subjects in the real world...maybe dispassionatley. Since none of it is based on underlying religious beliefs, don't you suppose a lot of it just good old-fashioned tribalism / identity politics / the tendency to see people who are not like you as "the other"? Mind you, I'm not trying to deny that some is also the result of historical events, particularly war/territorial infighting (the Dales, Orlais' occupation of Ferelden, etc.). sure but that seems a bit " meta" for the conversation were having
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 24, 2019 20:59:45 GMT
I find it interesting how little attention is drawn to the fact Gaider and company were clearly using Martin as a template when designing DA.
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Post by biggydx on Feb 24, 2019 22:18:57 GMT
I find it interesting how little attention is drawn to the fact Gaider and company were clearly using Martin as a template when designing DA. It's definitely apparent when you consider the background of Andraste
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Post by Sifr on Feb 24, 2019 22:27:37 GMT
I find it interesting how little attention is drawn to the fact Gaider and company were clearly using Martin as a template when designing DA. I mean, the Couslands are pretty much the Starks except the Red Wedding happens within a few pages of their introduction.
And Vaughn is pretty much Ramsey, except he has the intelligence of Joffrey.
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