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Post by DragonKingReborn on Feb 24, 2019 22:37:40 GMT
I find it interesting how little attention is drawn to the fact Gaider and company were clearly using Martin as a template when designing DA. I mean, the Couslands are pretty much the Starks except the Red Wedding happens within a few pages of their introduction.
And Vaughn is pretty much Ramsey, except he has the intelligence of Joffrey.
And the irresistible personal charisma....
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 24, 2019 22:40:52 GMT
I find it interesting how little attention is drawn to the fact Gaider and company were clearly using Martin as a template when designing DA. I mean, the Couslands are pretty much the Starks except the Red Wedding happens within a few pages of their introduction.
And Vaughn is pretty much Ramsey, except he has the intelligence of Joffrey.
It's in the DNA of the franchise and never gets mentioned. I'm not saying Bioware wasn't able to make DA its own thing. But to deny the dark fantasy roots as a pseudo-European setting is disingenuous to say the least.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 24, 2019 23:08:39 GMT
It's in the DNA of the franchise and never gets mentioned. I'm not saying Bioware wasn't able to make DA its own thing. But to deny the dark fantasy roots as a pseudo-European setting is disingenuous to say the least. What I don't understand is why Bioware would move away from that same dark fantasy tone after Origins, as surely the popularity of the television adaptation of ASOIAF/GOT has shown that this genre appeals and resonates with a lot of people?
Besides, it's not like real-world medieval European history isn't dark. Back then, they came up with all sorts of ridiculous ways to execute people, including boiling them! That also invented a new word to describe "the act of throwing someone out of a window", kinda speaks for itself.
Westeros and our world feature long histories of messed up people doing messed up things, so why sanitise this aspect of Thedas?
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 24, 2019 23:25:23 GMT
It's in the DNA of the franchise and never gets mentioned. I'm not saying Bioware wasn't able to make DA its own thing. But to deny the dark fantasy roots as a pseudo-European setting is disingenuous to say the least. What I don't understand is why Bioware would move away from that same dark fantasy tone after Origins, as surely the popularity of the television adaptation of ASOIAF/GOT has shown that this genre appeals and resonates with a lot of people?
Besides, it's not like real-world medieval European history isn't dark. Back then, they came up with all sorts of ridiculous ways to execute people, including boiling them! That also invented a new word to describe "the act of throwing someone out of a window", kinda speaks for itself.
Westeros and our world feature long histories of messed up people doing messed up things, so why sanitise this aspect of Thedas?
I'll never understand why they would move away from such a strong foundation. Thematically, everything in that game worked and they abandoned it.
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Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Feb 24, 2019 23:42:11 GMT
It's in the DNA of the franchise and never gets mentioned. I'm not saying Bioware wasn't able to make DA its own thing. But to deny the dark fantasy roots as a pseudo-European setting is disingenuous to say the least. What I don't understand is why Bioware would move away from that same dark fantasy tone after Origins, as surely the popularity of the television adaptation of ASOIAF/GOT has shown that this genre appeals and resonates with a lot of people?
Besides, it's not like real-world medieval European history isn't dark. Back then, they came up with all sorts of ridiculous ways to execute people, including boiling them! That also invented a new word to describe "the act of throwing someone out of a window", kinda speaks for itself.
Westeros and our world feature long histories of messed up people doing messed up things, so why sanitise this aspect of Thedas?
I’m not sure it was really deliberate... I think they had an idea in Inquisition that brought more High Fantasy elements into play, and that just sort of hijacked the tone. They just didn’t make a point to emphasize more of the darker elements, though some of those are still present.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 24, 2019 23:54:16 GMT
Maybe they realised that GoT is also a juvenile snuff fantasy for straight white dudes.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 24, 2019 23:54:46 GMT
What I don't understand is why Bioware would move away from that same dark fantasy tone after Origins, as surely the popularity of the television adaptation of ASOIAF/GOT has shown that this genre appeals and resonates with a lot of people?
Besides, it's not like real-world medieval European history isn't dark. Back then, they came up with all sorts of ridiculous ways to execute people, including boiling them! That also invented a new word to describe "the act of throwing someone out of a window", kinda speaks for itself.
Westeros and our world feature long histories of messed up people doing messed up things, so why sanitise this aspect of Thedas?
I’m not sure it was really deliberate... I think they had an idea in Inquisition that brought more High Fantasy elements into play, and that just sort of hijacked the tone. They just didn’t make a point to emphasize more of the darker elements, though some of those are still present. Yeah, I think it was deliberate. The shift from DA:O to Inquisition is very deliberate.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 24, 2019 23:55:51 GMT
Maybe they realised that GoT is also a juvenile snuff fantasy for straight white dudes. And some of the best fantasy written in the last 20 years, yet here you are.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 25, 2019 0:09:57 GMT
Maybe they realised that GoT is also a juvenile snuff fantasy for straight white dudes. And some of the best fantasy written in the last 20 years, yet here you are. Except there are basically no fantasy elements in it. Besides the fantasy of doing horrible things to women and never facing any consequences, I guess. Also, lol, you HAVE to say '20 years', because it's been 9 since he last wrote anything at all. A Dance with Dragons just barely scrapes into this DECADE. Have you read any other fantasy since 2011? Or at all? Who are you comparing Martin to, when you say he's better? Tolkien? Le Guin? Stephen Donaldson? Patrick Rothfuss? Brandon Sanderson? China Mieville? N.K. Jemisin? Have you read any of Martin's non-GoT work? Because it's very different. If you think GoT is the best fantasy ever written, I think you probably do not actually like fantasy, and would prefer straightforward historical fiction instead.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 25, 2019 0:16:10 GMT
And some of the best fantasy written in the last 20 years, yet here you are. Except there are basically no fantasy elements in it. Besides the fantasy of doing horrible things to women and never facing any consequences, I guess. Also, lol, you HAVE to say '20 years', because it's been 9 since he last wrote anything at all. A Dance with Dragons just barely scrapes into this DECADE. Have you read any other fantasy since 2011? Or at all? Who are you comparing Martin to, when you say he's better? Tolkien? Le Guin? Stephen Donaldson? Patrick Rothfuss? Brandon Sanderson? China Mieville? N.K. Jemisin? Have you read any of Martin's non-GoT work? Because it's very different. If you think GoT is the best fantasy ever written, I think you probably do not actually like fantasy, and would prefer straightforward historical fiction instead. I love how it offends you but yeah, it's better than those you listed. Which is one of the reason it's now mainstream, and not Patrick boring-as-Fuck Rothfuss. It's not like Patrick didn't get the jump here on Martin or Sapkowksi. His books are fuckin' boring.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 25, 2019 0:20:11 GMT
Not really relevant to the topic, but I highly recommend Martin's Fevre Dream. It's one of those more "realistic" depictions of vampires, has a friggin steamboat, is built around a core of male friendship (which I really enjoy), and the food descriptions are glorious.
As for ASoIaF and fantasy... there are fantasy elements. Aside from the white walkers and dragons, I'd say that the focus is more around mystical magic than anything else, which is seen with the Red God; that whole weird tree thing involving Bran, and related the Stark children having their affinity with their direwolves (presented in various ways with all whose wolves lived for any length of time); the face changing stuff Arya learns; and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.
It's not wizards throwing fireballs, but the magic is there. I agree that the fantasy elements take a back seat to the more "real" political elements, and exist to support them while offering alternative ways to move those plots forward, but they do exist. I'd say the breakdown is about 85/15 "real"/fantasy.
(It's been a long while since I've read the novels, I've stopped watching the show, and just generally lost interest in the series altogether for reasons that are beyond the scope of this thread. So, some of my details are fuzzy. )
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Post by river82 on Feb 25, 2019 0:28:34 GMT
Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell is one of the books I consider best recent fantasy ... even if my sister calls it "a weak attempt at imitating some strange Jane Austin style". Whatever, sis Also Gail Carriger's Parasol Protectorate is legit fun if you like comedy of manners. I enjoyed it much more than most of the mainstream fantasy names out there.
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Post by caladrius on Feb 25, 2019 0:48:00 GMT
I think DA has about as much in common with Game of Thrones as Lord of the Rings. Almost anything fantasy could be said to be “based on” more famous works with vaguely similar worlds, but having elves and basically orcs and a handful of dragons doesn’t make DA close enough to LotR to make it super relevant. Having some political intrigue in a world with some aesthetic nods to medieval Europe doesn’t make it intrisinctly tied to Game of Thrones, either.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 25, 2019 0:52:45 GMT
Except there are basically no fantasy elements in it. Besides the fantasy of doing horrible things to women and never facing any consequences, I guess. Also, lol, you HAVE to say '20 years', because it's been 9 since he last wrote anything at all. A Dance with Dragons just barely scrapes into this DECADE. Have you read any other fantasy since 2011? Or at all? Who are you comparing Martin to, when you say he's better? Tolkien? Le Guin? Stephen Donaldson? Patrick Rothfuss? Brandon Sanderson? China Mieville? N.K. Jemisin? Have you read any of Martin's non-GoT work? Because it's very different. If you think GoT is the best fantasy ever written, I think you probably do not actually like fantasy, and would prefer straightforward historical fiction instead. I love how it offends you but yeah, it's better than those you listed. Which is one of the reason it's now mainstream, and not Patrick boring-as-Fuck Rothfuss. It's not like Patrick didn't get the jump here on Martin or Sapkowksi. His books are fuckin' boring. I'm not 'offended', I'm just trying to figure out who you're comparing Martin to when you say he's the best. I never got past the first chapter of Name of the Wind myself, and I don't believe for a second that you've read a word of Mieville or Jemisin, because you are clearly conservatively-minded, and those authors are a hardcore socialist and a black woman, respectively. Regardless, DA:O may have taken some very minor inspiration from GoT for elements of its worldbuilding, and so what? It also clearly took inspiration from Lord of the Rings, and Dungeons and Dragons. It took shit from all over the place. The resulting tone of DA:O nothing like GoT at all. It doesn't have anything like the same amount of sexual violence, child murder, or even just regular murder. And most of it happens off-screen as it is. On top of that, it also features: - a sexy assassin who can wind up falling in love with you instead of killing you - an 'eeeeeviiiil' witch... who can also wind up falling in love with you - a dog who brings you treasure, and everyone in your party, regardless of personality, thinks he's JUST THE GOODEST BOY EVER YES HE IS - jail-break dress up shenaningans - a golem who complains constantly about getting pooped on - a dwarf who is 90% fart jokes - a grown-ass man who gets excited about dolls - a chirpy redhead who keeps trying to give the eeeeeevil witch a makeover And like a million other things I could mention, except I've got a ticket to go see Alita in a bit over an hour, and I still haven't put my pants on yet. If you think DA:O was remotely like Game of Thrones, then it's probably because you played it that way (at least insofar as the game would allow, which is not actually very much at all, even if you murder as many people as you possibly can), but it also let me approach the game as if it were an extended episode of MLP: Friendship is Magic. And DA2 and DAI both also offer plenty of opportunity to be an absolute douchebag, if that's what tickles your pickle. The "tone" of the games hasn't changed at all, there was always plenty of humour, and the vast majority of the violence was always off-screen.
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Post by Sifr on Feb 25, 2019 0:57:06 GMT
Except there are basically no fantasy elements in it. Besides the fantasy of doing horrible things to women and never facing any consequences, I guess. Because those types of things didn't happen to women during the medieval period? Hell, they don't happen today?
It sucks, but Westeros is consistently depicted as a mercilessly brutal place for everybody. Women do suffer admittedly more, that's not really a surprise given how their society seems to treat women in general.
Look at the situation during the Blackwater as a prime example of how women are treated as an afterthought in Westeros. Rather than Tyrion ordering a spear to be put in the hand of every able bodied person capable of carrying one, regardless of gender, the women were instead told to sequester themselves in cellars and expect to be raped or killed (maybe not even in that order) if the city fell.
But sadly, that's not at all dissimilar to how things were in real medieval history.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 25, 2019 1:06:23 GMT
I love how it offends you but yeah, it's better than those you listed. Which is one of the reason it's now mainstream, and not Patrick boring-as-Fuck Rothfuss. It's not like Patrick didn't get the jump here on Martin or Sapkowksi. His books are fuckin' boring. I'm not 'offended', I'm just trying to figure out who you're comparing Martin to when you say he's the best. I never got past the first chapter of Name of the Wind myself, and I don't believe for a second that you've read a word of Mieville or Jemisin, because you are clearly conservatively-minded, and those authors are a hardcore socialist and a black woman, respectively. Regardless, DA:O may have taken some very minor inspiration from GoT for elements of its worldbuilding, and so what? It also clearly took inspiration from Lord of the Rings, and Dungeons and Dragons. It took shit from all over the place. The resulting tone of DA:O nothing like GoT at all. It doesn't have anything like the same amount of sexual violence, child murder, or even just regular murder. And most of it happens off-screen as it is. On top of that, it also features: - a sexy assassin who can wind up falling in love with you instead of killing you - an 'eeeeeviiiil' witch... who can also wind up falling in love with you - a dog who brings you treasure, and everyone in your party, regardless of personality, thinks he's JUST THE GOODEST BOY EVER YES HE IS - jail-break dress up shenaningans - a golem who complains constantly about getting pooped on - a dwarf who is 90% fart jokes - a grown-ass man who gets excited about dolls - a chirpy redhead who keeps trying to give the eeeeeevil witch a makeover And like a million other things I could mention, except I've got a ticket to go see Alita in a bit over an hour, and I still haven't put my pants on yet. If you think DA:O was remotely like Game of Thrones, then it's probably because you played it that way (at least insofar as the game would allow, which is not actually very much at all, even if you murder as many people as you possibly can), but it also let me approach the game as if it were an extended episode of MLP: Friendship is Magic. And DA2 and DAI both also offer plenty of opportunity to be an absolute douchebag, if that's what tickles your pickle. The "tone" of the games hasn't changed at all, there was always plenty of humour, and the vast majority of the violence was always off-screen. You...really want this game to be your political tool. I don't. I like it for what it is. Unlike you I don't need my media to be reflection of my political ideals. Cheers to your 'progressive' Dragon Age.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 25, 2019 1:07:07 GMT
Except there are basically no fantasy elements in it. Besides the fantasy of doing horrible things to women and never facing any consequences, I guess. Because those types of things didn't happen to women during the medieval period? Hell, they don't happen today?
It sucks, but Westeros is consistently depicted as a mercilessly brutal place for everybody. Women do suffer admittedly more, that's not really a surprise given how their society seems to treat women in general.
Look at the situation during the Blackwater as a prime example of how women are treated as an afterthought in Westeros. Rather than Tyrion ordering a spear to be put in the hand of every able bodied person capable of carrying one, regardless of gender, the women were instead told to sequester themselves in cellars and expect to be raped or killed (maybe not even in that order) if the city fell.
But sadly, that's not at all dissimilar to how things were in real medieval history.
I'm not a medieval history scholar, and I don't think what really happened in the "medieval period" is remotely relevant to GoT or Dragon Age. They might have some of the same decorative trappings, but once you add magic to the world, you change it, fundamentally. If magic and dragons really existed, human society would have developed on an entirely different trajectory, if it ever developed at all. Obviously women put up with a lot of shit throughout history and up to today. I'm not saying you can't discuss rape or sexism or any of those things in your fantasy work, but just throwing it in without examining it critically "because history" is a shit argument. Fantasy writers aren't beholden to the facts of history, that is... that is sort of the entire point. Besides, Martin's "every woman in the world is doomed to a lifetime of endless rape and domestic slavery except for a couple speshul ones, of course" nonsense is exactly the sort of derivative dreck I want fantasy to leave behind. And who cares what GoT has anyway? If GoT jumped off a cliff, would Dragon Age have to as well?
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 25, 2019 1:08:43 GMT
I'm not 'offended', I'm just trying to figure out who you're comparing Martin to when you say he's the best. I never got past the first chapter of Name of the Wind myself, and I don't believe for a second that you've read a word of Mieville or Jemisin, because you are clearly conservatively-minded, and those authors are a hardcore socialist and a black woman, respectively. Regardless, DA:O may have taken some very minor inspiration from GoT for elements of its worldbuilding, and so what? It also clearly took inspiration from Lord of the Rings, and Dungeons and Dragons. It took shit from all over the place. The resulting tone of DA:O nothing like GoT at all. It doesn't have anything like the same amount of sexual violence, child murder, or even just regular murder. And most of it happens off-screen as it is. On top of that, it also features: - a sexy assassin who can wind up falling in love with you instead of killing you - an 'eeeeeviiiil' witch... who can also wind up falling in love with you - a dog who brings you treasure, and everyone in your party, regardless of personality, thinks he's JUST THE GOODEST BOY EVER YES HE IS - jail-break dress up shenaningans - a golem who complains constantly about getting pooped on - a dwarf who is 90% fart jokes - a grown-ass man who gets excited about dolls - a chirpy redhead who keeps trying to give the eeeeeevil witch a makeover And like a million other things I could mention, except I've got a ticket to go see Alita in a bit over an hour, and I still haven't put my pants on yet. If you think DA:O was remotely like Game of Thrones, then it's probably because you played it that way (at least insofar as the game would allow, which is not actually very much at all, even if you murder as many people as you possibly can), but it also let me approach the game as if it were an extended episode of MLP: Friendship is Magic. And DA2 and DAI both also offer plenty of opportunity to be an absolute douchebag, if that's what tickles your pickle. The "tone" of the games hasn't changed at all, there was always plenty of humour, and the vast majority of the violence was always off-screen. You...really want this game to be your political tool. I don't. I like it for what it is. Unlike you I don't need my media to be reflection of my political ideals. Cheers to your 'progressive' Dragon Age. You... really cannot read.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 25, 2019 1:11:38 GMT
You...really want this game to be your political tool. I don't. I like it for what it is. Unlike you I don't need my media to be reflection of my political ideals. Cheers to your 'progressive' Dragon Age. You... really cannot read. Oh I can. I just respond when it's worthwhile.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 25, 2019 1:14:35 GMT
You... really cannot read. Oh I can. I just respond when it's worthwhile. "I like this game for what it is, except for all the stuff it has that conflicts with my view of what I think it is."
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Post by Nightscrawl on Feb 25, 2019 1:17:44 GMT
And who cares what GoT has anyway? If GoT jumped off a cliff, would Dragon Age have to as well? Add Witcher to that and some think DA definitely should with all due haste.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Feb 25, 2019 1:21:58 GMT
Oh I can. I just respond when it's worthwhile. "I like this game for what it is, except for all the stuff it has that conflicts with my view of what I think it is." Lol, You're the politics whore here. Look at you straining every bit of lore to match your politics. I'm taking lore, and you're whinging about modern political trends.
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Post by river82 on Feb 25, 2019 1:24:14 GMT
And who cares what GoT has anyway? If GoT jumped off a cliff, would Dragon Age have to as well? Add Witcher to that and some think DA definitely should with all due haste. “I love the way The Witcher 3 put more cinematic, more heavy story quests into those open worlds in order to even out the pacing and do it in a way players responded to super positively. Whereas in our case, it felt like there were two phases of the game: there was the stuff in the open world which, again, the writers did a great job of theming each zone so it had like, oh, this is the one where there was an expedition that went missing and it’s all full of notes, but it was never quite the same as the level of intensity you got when you went back in time and rescued Leliana from Redcliffe. Those were heavily cinematic. So, I think it was a bit jarring due to being inconsistent.
"If I could go back I’m sure we’d look closer to The Witcher 3 – in the hindsight that I’ve seen The Witcher 3. Even we knew it was living where it was and we hadn’t balanced our budget in our deployment of stuff properly in the same way hindsight would have led me to do."comicbook.com/gaming/2018/05/27/dragon-age-inquisition-bioware-witcher-3/Mike Laidlaw obviously cares. Anyway his comments are in line with Bioware's recent behaviour of following trends (Skyrim, No Man's Sky, Destiny) rather than trendsetting.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 25, 2019 1:28:41 GMT
"I like this game for what it is, except for all the stuff it has that conflicts with my view of what I think it is." Lol, You're the politics whore here. Look at you straining every bit of lore to match your politics. I'm taking lore, and you're whinging about modern political trends. Lol, it couldn't possibly be because all that shit is overdone and played out.
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April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Feb 25, 2019 1:29:52 GMT
Add Witcher to that and some think DA definitely should with all due haste. “I love the way The Witcher 3 put more cinematic, more heavy story quests into those open worlds in order to even out the pacing and do it in a way players responded to super positively. Whereas in our case, it felt like there were two phases of the game: there was the stuff in the open world which, again, the writers did a great job of theming each zone so it had like, oh, this is the one where there was an expedition that went missing and it’s all full of notes, but it was never quite the same as the level of intensity you got when you went back in time and rescued Leliana from Redcliffe. Those were heavily cinematic. So, I think it was a bit jarring due to being inconsistent.
"If I could go back I’m sure we’d look closer to The Witcher 3 – in the hindsight that I’ve seen The Witcher 3. Even we knew it was living where it was and we hadn’t balanced our budget in our deployment of stuff properly in the same way hindsight would have led me to do."comicbook.com/gaming/2018/05/27/dragon-age-inquisition-bioware-witcher-3/Mike Laidlaw obviously cares. Anyway his comments are in line with Bioware's recent behaviour of following trends (Skyrim, No Man's Sky, Destiny) rather than trendsetting. Where did Nightscrawl say that Witcher 3 did NOTHING of value at all?
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