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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2020 16:48:35 GMT
Even if you put aside the actual ending choice, the fact that 4 entire species can be wiped out in the end doesn't leave much to follow, other than simply canonizing their survival or demise. Are you counting the krogan? If so, how long did it take for them to be wiped out? If the cure is sabotaged, the only difference is x number died during ME3 from what they had at the beginning of ME3. I would guess they'll be around for a very long time.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 26, 2020 17:00:29 GMT
Even if you put aside the actual ending choice, the fact that 4 entire species can be wiped out in the end doesn't leave much to follow, other than simply canonizing their survival or demise. Are you counting the krogan? If so, how long did it take for them to be wiped out? If the cure is sabotaged, the only difference is x number died during ME3 from what they had at the beginning of ME3. I would guess they'll be around for a very long time. Yes. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for their population to finally reach its critical point. The fact is that the effect of curing the genophage vs. sabotaging that cure is drastic enough that the krogan as a faction would have 2 entirely separate states of existence to account for. Do the krogan start rebuilding Tuchanka? Do they start mobilizing against their enemies with their newfound strength? Do they devolve back into warring clans and mercenaries on a dying world? Is Wreav alive? If Wrex survives ME1, Wreav is doomed, and if the cure is sabotaged, clan Urdnot will essentially begin to disintegrate with the loss of its leader. What would be the political fallout of this event? The clans, now thoroughly resentful over the betrayal, should sensibly breed even worse krogan characters that have absolutely no reason to trust anyone and are actively hostile. That could be interesting, but it serves as an example of how it can't simply be glossed over in a homogenized world state. That there would still be krogan living for centuries more doesn't change that there would be big differences in dialogue and the world backdrop. It would be like if you decided to let the Quarians die, but there were some quarians who turned out to simply not be there during that final assault. Those Quarian characters can't exist separate of these events.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2020 17:10:05 GMT
Are you counting the krogan? If so, how long did it take for them to be wiped out? If the cure is sabotaged, the only difference is x number died during ME3 from what they had at the beginning of ME3. I would guess they'll be around for a very long time. Yes. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for their population to finally reach its critical point. The fact is that the effect of curing the genophage vs. sabotaging that cure is drastic enough that the krogan as a faction would have 2 entirely separate states of existence to account for. Do the krogan start rebuilding Tuchanka? Do they start mobilizing against their enemies with their newfound strength? Do they devolve back into warring clans and mercenaries on a dying world? Is Wreav alive? If Wrex survives ME1, Wreav is doomed, and if the cure is sabotaged, clan Urdnot will essentially begin to disintegrate with the loss of its leader. What would be the political fallout of this event? The clans, now thoroughly resentful over the betrayal, should sensibly breed even worse krogan characters that have absolutely no reason to trust anyone and are actively hostile. That could be interesting, but it serves as an example of how it can't simply be glossed over in a homogenized world state. That there would still be krogan living for centuries more doesn't change that there would be big differences in dialogue and the world backdrop. It would be like if you decided to let the Quarians die, but there were some quarians who turned out to simply not be there during that final assault. Those Quarian characters can't exist separate of these events. There are also other factors like the fate of the Rachni. If you sabotaged the cure and Wreav is the leader, of the Rachni are also alive there is an ending where he tries another war with them that wipes out the Krogan and the Rachni now live on Tuchanka.
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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 26, 2020 17:30:54 GMT
I liked MEA but the premis was silly unless they knew reapers were coming from the start. The milky way is only 1% explored. Why not keep exploring the milky way. [/div]
[/quote] Considering the Reapers are a galaxy-wide threat I see why you'd want to try and flee beyond the Reaper's reach. So it makes sense to venture to other galaxies if you have the ability to do so. My issue with Andromeda is that it doesn't probably think-through the implications of a galaxy with Reapers vs one without them. You can read my post on that here: bsn.boards.net/thread/18095/mass-effect-andromeda-hardly-imagined Well, in a sense it wasn't entirely necessary. However, this comes with the caveat that BioWare would need to decide a hard direction to go in in order to expand upon an established universe. Which could be done by a decent writer. IE: not Casey Hudson or Mac Walters. Walters can make good characters but he is terrible at world building or plot development.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2020 17:31:57 GMT
Yes. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for their population to finally reach its critical point. Why? You said they're wiped out. Is there any proof that they are wiped out? What proof do the krogan have that the cure would work? But they have an audio file of Shepard and dalatrass. So? What does that prove? That doesn't mean the genophage was sabotaged. All the council has to do is is come up with some blah,blah reason why it didn't work or it didn't work as well as the krogan hoped it would even though there's a slide with baby krogan. They could say something that they will make an effort to try to cure it, but with Solas gone and the strain that was in the shroud is gone it will take however long. Of course the krogan won't be happy about that. But what can they do? Most likely they'll do what they did when the genophage was first introduced. Interesting you mention that. Maybe you can answer this question. Is it true that if a player chooses to sabotage the cure, then chooses the green, one of the slides shows the krogan rebuilding? If so, does that mean the green used the power of magic to cure the genophage?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2020 17:36:42 GMT
Interesting you mention that. Maybe you can answer this question. Is it true that if a player chooses to sabotage the cure, then chooses the green, one of the slides shows the krogan rebuilding? If so, does that mean the green used the power of magic to cure the genophage? I’ve never sabotaged the cure, but if I recall yes Synthesis does cure the Genophage or at least paves the way for the cure.
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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 26, 2020 17:37:10 GMT
Yes. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for their population to finally reach its critical point. The fact is that the effect of curing the genophage vs. sabotaging that cure is drastic enough that the krogan as a faction would have 2 entirely separate states of existence to account for. Do the krogan start rebuilding Tuchanka? This could be written around too though I also believe that any positive futures with "cured krogan" were a bad idea and misunderstand the reasons for meaning of the genophage in the first place. Even if Wrex is around it makes no logical sense to cure the genophage and I'd argue that Wrex himself shouldn't even want it cured. Without the genophage, realistically, a second series of Krogan Rebellions is inevitable. The original rebellions didn't happen because the krogan are aggressive or war like, but because their population was surging beyond manageable levels. They needed the living space and their innate aggression just meant they were bold enough to start claiming it without a second thought. Even with Wrex alive, a cure to the genophage will eventually lead to this exact same set of circumstances. So if I were doing a sequel to ME3 I'd just ignore the bulk of those ending slides, but maybe incorporate some of their ideas in a smaller way. For example, I'd state that the krogan were infected with a different virus at some point after the Reaper War that had the same overall effect as the Genophage. Whether this virus was a weapon made by somebody, like the salarians or Reapers, or just a random mutation, would be unknown. The result would be the krogan divided into separate trains of thought. One side blames all non-krogan for this and embrace a hostile, war-like attitude, and the other are more committed to ideas like Wrex had about breeding and trying to build a constructive society, to build their own Golden Age in spite of stunted fertility rates. With this you have more creative freedom and don't precisely contradict the events of ME3.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2020 17:50:05 GMT
There are also other factors like the fate of the Rachni. If you sabotaged the cure and Wreav is the leader, of the Rachni are also alive there is an ending where he tries another war with them that wipes out the Krogan and the Rachni now live on Tuchanka. Where is it shown Wreav tries another war with the rachni?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2020 17:52:39 GMT
There are also other factors like the fate of the Rachni. If you sabotaged the cure and Wreav is the leader, of the Rachni are also alive there is an ending where he tries another war with them that wipes out the Krogan and the Rachni now live on Tuchanka. Where is it shown Wreav tries another war with the rachni? This slide only happens with those certain conditions, and judging his reaction to Rachni existing while the Rachni don’t want war it’s pretty implicit.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2020 17:53:27 GMT
I’ve never sabotaged the cure, but if I recall yes Synthesis does cure the Genophage So that means a player can say my choice doesn't matter? Can't that be said for the blue and red as well? It might take longer, but it would be possible.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2020 17:56:06 GMT
I’ve never sabotaged the cure, but if I recall yes Synthesis does cure the Genophage So that means a player can say my choice doesn't matter? Can't that be said for the blue and red as well? It might take longer, but it would be possible. Considering a player choosing Synthesis affects nobody’s game but their own, no. That second part was just a guess so can’t really say.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2020 17:59:58 GMT
Where is it shown Wreav tries another war with the rachni? Doesn't that slide show up even if Wrex was in charge, and the genophage sabotaged? Last I remember, it does. If the krogan and rachni went to war, how far in the future is that taking place? Didn't the council species help? Or maybe the krogan decided to settle to another planet with the council's permission.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Feb 26, 2020 18:02:12 GMT
Doesn't that slide show up even if Wrex was in charge, and the genophage sabotaged? Last I remember, it does. If the krogan and rachni went to war, how far in the future is that taking place? Didn't the council species help? Or maybe the krogan decided to settle to another planet with the council's permission. If it did, then I was mistaken and apologize.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2020 18:02:45 GMT
So that means a player can say my choice doesn't matter? Can't that be said for the blue and red as well? It might take longer, but it would be possible. Considering a player choosing Synthesis affects nobody’s game but their own, no. That second part was just a guess so can’t really say. I don't agree. A player chooses to sabotage the cure for a reason. It's then reversed because of some magic green stuff.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 26, 2020 18:23:25 GMT
Yes. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for their population to finally reach its critical point. Why? You said they're wiped out. Is there any proof that they are wiped out? What proof do the krogan have that the cure would work? But they have an audio file of Shepard and dalatrass. So? What does that prove? That doesn't mean the genophage was sabotaged. All the council has to do is is come up with some blah,blah reason why it didn't work or it didn't work as well as the krogan hoped it would even though there's a slide with baby krogan. They could say something that they will make an effort to try to cure it, but with Solas gone and the strain that was in the shroud is gone it will take however long. Of course the krogan won't be happy about that. But what can they do? Most likely they'll do what they did when the genophage was first introduced. Interesting you mention that. Maybe you can answer this question. Is it true that if a player chooses to sabotage the cure, then chooses the green, one of the slides shows the krogan rebuilding? If so, does that mean the green used the power of magic to cure the genophage? Proof that they're wiped out? Perhaps one might want to argue that this isn't really proof of anything. However, the art of visual storytelling tells such ideas that it has no power here, and should take a hike. So yes, if you sabotage the genophage cure, the krogan absolutely die off. The key difference here is that surviving members get to look forward to watching their species succumb to a slow grind into oblivion over possibly generations for other species. The state we see them in a future view of the future depends on the time jump. It could be 100 years, or it could be 1,000. Fair bet that in just a few centuries, what's left of the krogan would be lone stragglers waiting to die. The point about proof of the cure's viability is moot in a sabotage scenario. Whatever was supposed to happen in their benefit simply doesn't, and they'll simply end up in a worse state than before, which is established as the eventuality of this particular path. Whatever incentive there may be to believe the Alliance and Council's deceitful spin would be nonexistent. They'll just chalk it up to them being fed bullshit, and rightly so. Wouldn't you? I mean, oh well they have no reason to lie to us! Not like they'd be concerned about how we'd respond. They'd consider it typical Council shenanigans. In the end, what difference does it make? The krogan in this situation are absolutely fucked anyway. Whether they believed in any proof in anything that what they were promised would work would not mitigate the effects of its failure. But the point I made about that was that the state of their society itself would have variable states based off of this decision. They're either thriving, or they aren't. They're either having babies and seeing greater prospects for the future, or it's a return to the status quo, which the games established already was still in a state of decline. This is something any game depicting the krogan would have to move past. It would have to select one or the other. If we were to go by the timeline currently in place, some 600 years later, it's a fair guess that Tuchanka's an even worse shithole than before, now that their population was decimated during the reaper war, with no hope of replenishing those numbers, even less so if the rachni are still around. Synthesis is a different story altogether, since the krogan are just a small part of a very different, irrevocably altered universe at that point.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 26, 2020 18:30:50 GMT
Yes. It doesn't really matter how long it takes for their population to finally reach its critical point. The fact is that the effect of curing the genophage vs. sabotaging that cure is drastic enough that the krogan as a faction would have 2 entirely separate states of existence to account for. Do the krogan start rebuilding Tuchanka? This could be written around too though I also believe that any positive futures with "cured krogan" were a bad idea and misunderstand the reasons for meaning of the genophage in the first place. Even if Wrex is around it makes no logical sense to cure the genophage and I'd argue that Wrex himself shouldn't even want it cured. Without the genophage, realistically, a second series of Krogan Rebellions is inevitable. The original rebellions didn't happen because the krogan are aggressive or war like, but because their population was surging beyond manageable levels. They needed the living space and their innate aggression just meant they were bold enough to start claiming it without a second thought. Even with Wrex alive, a cure to the genophage will eventually lead to this exact same set of circumstances. So if I were doing a sequel to ME3 I'd just ignore the bulk of those ending slides, but maybe incorporate some of their ideas in a smaller way. For example, I'd state that the krogan were infected with a different virus at some point after the Reaper War that had the same overall effect as the Genophage. Whether this virus was a weapon made by somebody, like the salarians or Reapers, or just a random mutation, would be unknown. The result would be the krogan divided into separate trains of thought. One side blames all non-krogan for this and embrace a hostile, war-like attitude, and the other are more committed to ideas like Wrex had about breeding and trying to build a constructive society, to build their own Golden Age in spite of stunted fertility rates. With this you have more creative freedom and don't precisely contradict the events of ME3. I think this is actually serving my original point of why any sequel to ME3 is going to be inherently problematic. Continuity will die, and there's no way around it.
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Post by sassafrassa on Feb 26, 2020 18:32:19 GMT
But the point I made about that was that the state of their society itself would have variable states based off of this decision. They're either thriving, or they aren't. They're either having babies and seeing greater prospects for the future, or it's a return to the status quo, which the games established already was still in a state of decline. This is something any game depicting the krogan would have to move past. It would have to select one or the other. If we were to go by the timeline currently in place, some 600 years later, it's a fair guess that Tuchanka's an even worse shithole than before, now that their population was decimated during the reaper war, with no hope of replenishing those numbers, even less so if the rachni are still around. Do you think the story should continue in the Milky Way or in Andromeda, or not at all? If you're going to continue the setting in the Milky Way, then you need to establish some sort of canon that leaves you with a good deal of creative potential. Letting any races get wiped out completely is thus a mistake. As I said, I think the best option is a canon that doesn't directly contradict anything in ME3, but incorporates all of its various ending concepts. It can be done.
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 26, 2020 18:40:06 GMT
But the point I made about that was that the state of their society itself would have variable states based off of this decision. They're either thriving, or they aren't. They're either having babies and seeing greater prospects for the future, or it's a return to the status quo, which the games established already was still in a state of decline. This is something any game depicting the krogan would have to move past. It would have to select one or the other. If we were to go by the timeline currently in place, some 600 years later, it's a fair guess that Tuchanka's an even worse shithole than before, now that their population was decimated during the reaper war, with no hope of replenishing those numbers, even less so if the rachni are still around. Do you think the story should continue in the Milky Way or in Andromeda, or not at all? If you're going to continue the setting in the Milky Way, then you need to establish some sort of canon that leaves you with a good deal of creative potential. Letting any races get wiped out completely is thus a mistake. As I said, I think the best option is a canon that doesn't directly contradict anything in ME3, but incorporates all of its various ending concepts. It can be done. I prefer to see it more as preference than what I feel *should* be done. I'm simply not keen on this homogenized canon state they establish for the Milky Way going forward, given all of the weird things that actually happen in the end. Personally, I'd prefer to leave to leave the Milky Way behind entirely. Right now, I consider it a narrative graveyard.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 19:29:43 GMT
Considering a player choosing Synthesis affects nobody’s game but their own, no. That second part was just a guess so can’t really say. I don't agree. A player chooses to sabotage the cure for a reason. It's then reversed because of some magic green stuff. A player who chooses synthesis after sabotaging the genophage knowingly eliminates the need for the genophage to stay in place... because the nature of the krogan changes along with their DNA in that moment and they are no longer a threat to galactic peace. The player is told that the peace lasts because everyone has a total understanding of each other (including organics and synthetics). It's utopian peace presented in a nutshell and the player is free to choose it... and that choice is respected in the ending slides. If the player does not want to override their previous choice of sabotaging the genophage, they can choose either one of the other endings that do not alter the genetic makeup of the species.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2020 22:52:39 GMT
A player who chooses synthesis after sabotaging the genophage knowingly eliminates the need for the genophage to stay in place... because the nature of the krogan changes along with their DNA in that moment and they are no longer a threat to galactic peace. What about the brain? Did the green alter the brain of an organic? The salarians know that Shepard sabotaged the genophage. What will their reaction be when it wasn't? Or did the green alter their brain to accept the genophage to be cured? What about the guy and kid? He tells the kid that Shepard sabotaged the cure, then he changes the story saying it was magically cured. The kid is confused. Is that one of the details that have changed over time? It never said the peace lasts when talking about the green. It says organics will be perfected by integrating with synthetic technology and the synthetics will have full understanding of organics. How many would know the green would do that on their first playthrough after the cut was released? Did you know that when the thing was talking about the green the first time you played ME3 with the cut?
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Post by KaiserShep on Feb 26, 2020 23:03:19 GMT
The catalyst says very little about Synthesis. It might as well have said "This is the best, because it totally is."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 23:09:59 GMT
A player who chooses synthesis after sabotaging the genophage knowingly eliminates the need for the genophage to stay in place... because the nature of the krogan changes along with their DNA in that moment and they are no longer a threat to galactic peace. What about the brain? Did the green alter the brain of an organic? The salarians know that Shepard sabotaged the genophage. What will their reaction be when it wasn't? Or did the green alter their brain to accept the genophage to be cured? What about the guy and kid? He tells the kid that Shepard sabotaged the cure, then he changes the story saying it was magically cured. The kid is confused. Is that one of the details that have changed over time? It never said the peace lasts when talking about the green. It says organics will be perfected by integrating with synthetic technology and the synthetics will have full understanding of organics. How many would know the green would do that on their first playthrough after the cut was released? Did you know that when the thing was talking about the green the first time you played ME3 with the cut? Obviously, it alters how both organics and synthetics think. It represents total peace, which isn't possible unless the organic species change how they think... both about synthetics and other organics. The whole idea behind it is that everything understands each other completely because they are all a part of each other... synthesized (def: "combined into a coherent whole").
Regardless of what you think about it... a player who chooses it does so knowing it changes the DNA of everyone... so they should know it likely overrides the sabotaging of the genophage before making their actual choice. It's still a choice. If they don't want it as a consequence of making that choice, they currently have the option to choose something else. On a first playthrough, if a player makes a mistake in their choice, they always can reload the autosave just before Marauder shields and they can then change their choice. A lot of first-time players (from what I've seen) run through the 3 different ending choices that way... just to see how they differ.
You want, on the other hand, to impose High EMS Destroy on everyone. To eliminate all the other choices. It's not Bioware disrespecting player choice. It's you. If they make synthesis the canon choice, then you have the same option as I do if they may Destory the canon choice. If you object to it on moral grounds strong enough, don't buy another Biwoare game. If you don't object that much, then overlook it or headcanon something an move on (like I have with the Garrus issue).
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Post by themikefest on Feb 26, 2020 23:35:22 GMT
You want, on the other hand, to impose High EMS Destroy on everyone. To eliminate all the other choices. It's not Bioware disrespecting player choice. It's you. You want, on the other hand, to impose control, if Bioware were to choose an ending, with the geth still around, on everyone, to eliminate all other choices. It's not Bioware disrespecting player's choice, it's you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 23:45:07 GMT
You want, on the other hand, to impose High EMS Destroy on everyone. To eliminate all the other choices. It's not Bioware disrespecting player choice. It's you. You want, on the other hand, to impose control, if Bioware were to choose an ending, with the geth still around, on everyone, to eliminate all other choices. It's not Bioware disrespecting player's choice, it's you. No, I want them to move forward without any canon... either by moving the timeline far enough into the future that another natural catastrophe wipes out all evident of what choice was made OR MY PREFERENCE IS TO STAY IN ANDROMEDA... where we have already moved forward 600 years without canoning Shepard's choice.
Honestly, how many times do I have to repeat that statement before you'll understand it.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 27, 2020 0:31:02 GMT
You want, on the other hand, to impose control, if Bioware were to choose an ending, with the geth still around, on everyone, to eliminate all other choices. It's not Bioware disrespecting player's choice, it's you. No, I want them to move forward without any canon... either by moving the timeline far enough into the future that another natural catastrophe wipes out all evident of what choice was made OR MY PREFERENCE IS TO STAY IN ANDROMEDA... where we have already moved forward 600 years without canoning Shepard's choice.
Honestly, how many times do I have to repeat that statement before you'll understand it. I know what you want. You have at times mentioned that if Bioware were to choose an ending you want it to be the blue with the geth still around.
If it bothers you about repeating yourself, stop posting that you want to remain in Andromeda in your posts.
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