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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 18, 2017 9:47:57 GMT
No offense, I don't hate (and I don't think, that who speak about the Inquisition here, really hates) that, but I would like, that the next would more focused on story, because this is the Dragon Age. Not an MMO-simulation. That's just your characterization, and I'd go so far as to say it's objectively false. MMOs typically don't feature hours and hours of cut scenes and voice acting. Or choices about how the story should proceed. Or an ending, for that matter. Or NPC party members with meaningful interactions. There is also very little emphasis on leveling. The few MMO-like things it does have (pure fetch quests, which are not the majority and almost all skippable, and crafting, for example) are 100% optional. It's an absolutely hilarious position to argue that you don't like something, so no one should have the option to do it. Just don't do it, if you don't like it, and leave it for the rest of us. But yeah, calling DAI an "mmo-simulator" is kinda like me calling DA2 a "stuck in a broken elevator all day long simulator." I mean, that is kind of how I feel, but it probably doesn't add much to the conversation. Gotta get that post count up somehow, I guess. " More focused on story" to me just sounds like "more linear" or "more constricted." So yeah, no thanks. I was happy with both the DA:I story and size. And the game overall. That's why I searched out a forum for it. This time on topic for me, sort of hehe The story is the biggest draw for me, which is why I'm hoping for a more focused and expanded pivitol story. It needn't be linear in it's layout, but really indepth, tight and consistant. Drawing in lots of the other game elements, be they side quests, combat etc, to be more relevant to the story that is being told. DA:i was a broad blanket, designed to appeal to as many people as possible and this isn't entirely a bad thing, but it did lead to a watered down aspect of the game, I champion the most and would like to see become the focus in the next installement. The story and lore. Story by it's definition is always going to be more constricted, you always have a beginning, middle and an end, which means a line has to be drawn from A to C, but that line doesn't have to be straight and the percieved C, might be Q instead, or as Cat said, there might be more than one line, with differeant starting points, ending points and cross over, if the narrative is structured creatively and well (such as in SWTOR) I get that some people would be entirely happy to have no story, whatsoever, kinda like Skyrim, whose main story was pretty flimsy. Or a sandbox fantasy world with rpg elements and some sort of emergent story telling, I like those kind of games, but for me, DA has always been about the story first and foremost. I'd like it to stay that way, remain true to that idea. Perhaps Bioware could make a sandbox rpg style game, but with a different intellectual property.
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Post by ilsen on Mar 18, 2017 18:21:25 GMT
The story is the biggest draw for me, which is why I'm hoping for a more focused and expanded pivitol story. It needn't be linear in it's layout, but really indepth, tight and consistant. Drawing in lots of the other game elements, be they side quests, combat etc, to be more relevant to the story that is being told. DA:i was a broad blanket, designed to appeal to as many people as possible and this isn't entirely a bad thing, but it did lead to a watered down aspect of the game, I champion the most and would like to see become the focus in the next installement. The story and lore. Story by it's definition is always going to be more constricted, you always have a beginning, middle and an end, which means a line has to be drawn from A to C, but that line doesn't have to be straight and the percieved C, might be Q instead, or as Cat said, there might be more than one line, with differeant starting points, ending points and cross over, if the narrative is structured creatively and well (such as in SWTOR) I get that some people would be entirely happy to have no story, whatsoever, kinda like Skyrim, whose main story was pretty flimsy. Or a sandbox fantasy world with rpg elements and some sort of emergent story telling, I like those kind of games, but for me, DA has always been about the story first and foremost. I'd like it to stay that way, remain true to that idea. Perhaps Bioware could make a sandbox rpg style game, but with a different intellectual property. I don't even think we are in disagreement about the changes, it's just that you are dictating what DA should be and I am appreciating it on its own merits. I agree that DAI sacrificed some of constrictive story based approach of DAO for expanded exploration and freedom. And overall, I liked the trade. I understand that you did not, but it's not for you to say that the trade was improper any more than it is for me to say that it was proper. I will note that in the DA games rating thread, DAO is in the top spot with 39%, DAI with 35%, and DA2 (which was extremely constrictive) in distant third with 25%. Given that is it rare for sequels to overcome the newness/nostalgia bonus of originals, I'd say that, objectively, the trade was quite well received, especially considering the disgruntled vocal minority of this board. And no, you were not one of the posters about whom I was referring--you only have 100 posts and you don't spam the same vitriol in every thread.
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Post by Walter Black on Mar 18, 2017 18:31:13 GMT
I never was a fan of open world games with vast stretches of land, but very little to actually do. My personal preference would be smaller, more unique and individual areas that have greater interactivity and change over time.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 18, 2017 19:28:22 GMT
The story is the biggest draw for me, which is why I'm hoping for a more focused and expanded pivitol story. It needn't be linear in it's layout, but really indepth, tight and consistant. Drawing in lots of the other game elements, be they side quests, combat etc, to be more relevant to the story that is being told. DA:i was a broad blanket, designed to appeal to as many people as possible and this isn't entirely a bad thing, but it did lead to a watered down aspect of the game, I champion the most and would like to see become the focus in the next installement. The story and lore. Story by it's definition is always going to be more constricted, you always have a beginning, middle and an end, which means a line has to be drawn from A to C, but that line doesn't have to be straight and the percieved C, might be Q instead, or as Cat said, there might be more than one line, with differeant starting points, ending points and cross over, if the narrative is structured creatively and well (such as in SWTOR) I get that some people would be entirely happy to have no story, whatsoever, kinda like Skyrim, whose main story was pretty flimsy. Or a sandbox fantasy world with rpg elements and some sort of emergent story telling, I like those kind of games, but for me, DA has always been about the story first and foremost. I'd like it to stay that way, remain true to that idea. Perhaps Bioware could make a sandbox rpg style game, but with a different intellectual property. I don't even think we are in disagreement about the changes, it's just that you are dictating what DA should be and I am appreciating it on its own merits. I agree that DAI sacrificed some of constrictive story based approach of DAO for expanded exploration and freedom. And overall, I liked the trade. I understand that you did not, but it's not for you to say that the trade was improper any more than it is for me to say that it was proper. I will note that in the DA games rating thread, DAO is in the top spot with 39%, DAI with 35%, and DA2 (which was extremely constrictive) in distant third with 25%. Given that is it rare for sequels to overcome the newness/nostalgia bonus of originals, I'd say that, objectively, the trade was quite well received, especially considering the disgruntled vocal minority of this board. And no, you were not one of the posters about whom I was referring--you only have 100 posts and you don't spam the same vitriol in every thread. It's hard being a passenger, on a journey in which one is invested, who wouldn't wish to be behind the wheel or manning the helm? I can't deny, that in a sense, I am dictating what I want DA:4 to be, or what shape it will take in the future. I ofcourse, have no illusions as to whether, what I think should be, or not, will have any influence on Bioware and what they choose to do. Part of expressing what we want, comes from discussing what we feel doesn't work for us, in previous installments. It's not so much about ripping on how bad it was, but what was suboptimal in our estimation, some people do so in a more approachable manner, some people aren't always sure what, exactly, it was they didn't like and so resort to generalised grumblings of discontent. Obviously folks will disagree and I stand by what I said, that the forums here and the people on it, are far from toxic when encountering opinions that differ from their own. Generally everyone talks it out and we all learn to look at things a little different or find our original opinions more concrete for the effort. Or folks generally agree to disagree. It's not a bad thing, imho. I checked out that thread, I rated DA:O>DA:I>DA:2. There was once a time, I felt DA:2 was garbage. It was largely the opinions and conversations, the debates (both the negative sides and positive sides, argued with competency) here on the forum, that have left me re-evaluating my own opinion of the game and some of the shine of DA:O has also been diminished in much the same way, following talk about that game and it's flaws and drawbacks. Things I might have overlooked before and gone on to judge unfairly, all the games that came after it. Well, enough off topic from me and thanks for your time in reading my walls of text! Hopefully you'll find more of the upbeat and vibrant conversation here than the negative stuff.
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Post by ilsen on Mar 18, 2017 19:42:23 GMT
Well, enough off topic from me and thanks for your time in reading my walls of text! Hopefully you'll find more of the upbeat and vibrant conversation here than the negative stuff. I expect little to change until DA4 comes out and people switch to spamming about how terrible that is. Nature of the beast, I guess. I'm totally fine with them retreating back into story mode (as you suggest), so long as it is done well (as it was in DAO). I'm also fine with them going more into Skyrim territory, again, so long as it is done well (as it was in DAI). I guess that's where we diverge. I have only really liked a handful of games the last decade, and DAO and DAI are two of them. That they are so different and still so awesome, compared to the other games out there, is pretty remarkable. As someone who grew up on the original Ultima and Wizardry games, Bethesda and Bioware are about the best I can hope for these days. (Though I am cautiously optimistic for Divinity Original Sin 2.)
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 18, 2017 19:50:36 GMT
Well, enough off topic from me and thanks for your time in reading my walls of text! Hopefully you'll find more of the upbeat and vibrant conversation here than the negative stuff. I expect little to change until DA4 comes out and people switch to spamming about how terrible that is. Nature of the beast, I guess. I'm totally fine with them retreating back into story mode (as you suggest), so long as it is done well (as it was in DAO). I'm also fine with them going more into Skyrim territory, again, so long as it is done well (as it was in DAI). I guess that's where we diverge. I have only really liked a handful of games the last decade, and DAO and DAI are two of them. That they are so different and still so awesome, compared to the other games out there, is pretty remarkable. As someone who grew up on the original Ultima and Wizardry games, Bethesda and Bioware are about the best I can hope for these days. (Though I am cautiously optimistic for Divinity Original Sin 2.) Oh, I can totally relate. Old school gamer also, as such I think our expectations tend to become rather specific. Makes it hard for any developer to get everything right. I tend to be generous as a consequence, while repeating what I want as politely and as constructively as possible, sometimes I'll employ a mega phone. I concur also with measured curiosity vis-a-vis DOS2. We shall see. What will be, will be.
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Post by Marduk on Mar 19, 2017 15:11:07 GMT
Based on how Inquisition ended, the sequel story-wise can be personal while at the same time having very high stakes. whether it is an open world or not i just wish they keep involving old characters.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 20, 2017 1:18:22 GMT
Based on how Inquisition ended, the sequel story-wise can be personal while at the same time having very high stakes. whether it is an open world or not i just wish they keep involving old characters. Were not playing the Inquisitor anymore though, is the impression I got. So what might happen is were someone who becomes wrapped up into the story in some form, maybe an agent working for Fen'Harel, or a member of the Inquisition...maybe an outsider looking in. Either way, I have a feeling it will be a bigger story with the same sort of beats as Inquisition, except we have more interaction and things to do on track for the narrative.
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Post by Marduk on Mar 20, 2017 3:28:31 GMT
Based on how Inquisition ended, the sequel story-wise can be personal while at the same time having very high stakes. whether it is an open world or not i just wish they keep involving old characters. Were not playing the Inquisitor anymore though, is the impression I got. So what might happen is were someone who becomes wrapped up into the story in some form, maybe an agent working for Fen'Harel, or a member of the Inquisition...maybe an outsider looking in. Either way, I have a feeling it will be a bigger story with the same sort of beats as Inquisition, except we have more interaction and things to do on track for the narrative. I am fine with a new protagonist. they can still involve older characters like how they brought back Morrigan, Hawke, Loghain or Varric. for example either Inquisitor or Cassandra can act as a mentor this time with Dorian as our guide if we go to Tevinter.
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Post by linksocarina on Mar 20, 2017 3:59:47 GMT
Were not playing the Inquisitor anymore though, is the impression I got. So what might happen is were someone who becomes wrapped up into the story in some form, maybe an agent working for Fen'Harel, or a member of the Inquisition...maybe an outsider looking in. Either way, I have a feeling it will be a bigger story with the same sort of beats as Inquisition, except we have more interaction and things to do on track for the narrative. I am fine with a new protagonist. they can still involve older characters like how they brought back Morrigan, Hawke, Loghain or Varric. for example either Inquisitor or Cassandra can act as a mentor this time with Dorian as our guide if we go to Tevinter. I have a feeling Dorian will continue the tradition of returning companion in a Dragon Age game. Weve seen it with Oghren, Anders and Varric already. Plus I'm banking on Scout Harding as a companion too. So plenty of inquisition allies there.
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Post by Marduk on Mar 20, 2017 4:24:14 GMT
I am fine with a new protagonist. they can still involve older characters like how they brought back Morrigan, Hawke, Loghain or Varric. for example either Inquisitor or Cassandra can act as a mentor this time with Dorian as our guide if we go to Tevinter. I have a feeling Dorian will continue the tradition of returning companion in a Dragon Age game. Weve seen it with Oghren, Anders and Varric already. Plus I'm banking on Scout Harding as a companion too. So plenty of inquisition allies there. Yea with Harding it felt like they were testing the water. although as far as the "main" heroine is concerned having an Elf or even a Qunari is more likely story-wise.
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Post by Iddy on Mar 20, 2017 19:01:31 GMT
I have a feeling Dorian will continue the tradition of returning companion in a Dragon Age game. Weve seen it with Oghren, Anders and Varric already. Plus I'm banking on Scout Harding as a companion too. So plenty of inquisition allies there. Yea with Harding it felt like they were testing the water. although as far as the "main" heroine is concerned having an Elf or even a Qunari is more likely story-wise. You mean the default heroes?
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Post by Marduk on Mar 21, 2017 1:25:19 GMT
Yea with Harding it felt like they were testing the water. although as far as the "main" heroine is concerned having an Elf or even a Qunari is more likely story-wise. You mean the default heroes? No my bad i meant the "main" love interest. first game it was a human mage (Morrigan), then a human rogue (Isabella) and at last a human warrior (Cassandra). they covered all classes for humans so maybe they start thinking about other races.
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Post by kino on Mar 21, 2017 1:48:04 GMT
Honestly, I'd like to see BioWare continuing to work on their world building. DAI was a good start, but I'd like to see more made from it.
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 21, 2017 5:52:22 GMT
I think we can likely take our cues as to what we'll see in DA4 from Trespasser - I can bet that eluvian hopping will be a prominent feature in future game.
I also suspect that we may see a lot of smaller, sectioned off, labyrinthine zones, like in Trespasser. We'd probably see some larger zones, but I wouldn't bet on a big number of them. I wouldn't be surprised if long dungeons make a return in some places.
I suspect we might get a large city space, likely a major hub with multiple prominent sections thrown around the map. Bioware as a studio now has experience in building larger cities - we've seen them in Andromeda. There's likely an underlying tech and assets for urban environments that is now shared between studios. Of course, if that happens, Minrathous as city of choice seems like a safe bet.
Needless to say, I think the game may resemble DA2 in a sense that a lot may happen in a city - we'd probably return there for some major story beats, some side-questing, to buy/sell stuff, replenish, and - of course - hang out with companions.
We may also travel a lot outside of it and, since it's not that far-fetched to assume we'll see a lot of eluvians, many of these zones will not be in Tevinter, so there'll likely be a huge environmental variety to them.
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Post by ewigDunkelheit on Mar 21, 2017 21:57:06 GMT
Please, for the love of the Maker, scale it down! Inquisition gained the honor of becoming my least favorite game from the company with the inclusion of the open, empty spaces (to be fair, I don't play PC games, and I have only played the Mass Effect Trilogy along with the Dragon Age series). I want more narrative or plot content, more character interactions and dialogue and choices, not larger zones with more collectibles. Some of the scenery was beautiful, some of the atmosphere was compelling, but quantity does not equal quality. If they want to continue with larger spaces, the spaces need more worthwhile content, and it would probably be better to limit the number of zones.
And I hear that Andromeda has been confirmed to be even worse in regards to the bland, checklist, fetch-questing. I will still try the game eventually, but I wonder if I will have enough experience points to finish the game if I skip most of the busy-work. It makes me sad to consider it.
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Post by phoray on Mar 22, 2017 2:52:27 GMT
I'd like it to be the same size/effort as DAI but have the focus shifted from multiple massive landscapes to more branching story and heavier narrative missions. If that makes sense. I like 60-100 hour games that are that long because of story not because I have to ride the slowest horse ever or walk all over the place.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 22, 2017 2:57:08 GMT
I'd like it to be the same size/effort as DAI but have the focus shifted from multiple massive landscapes to more branching story and heavier narrative missions. If that makes sense. I like 60-100 hour games that are that long because of story not because I have to ride the slowest horse ever or walk all over the place. How nice would be! (Sadly, I don't think, that ever will happen...)
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Post by Dabrikishaw on Mar 23, 2017 23:14:02 GMT
The scale of the game's plot or story isn't as relevant as the ability to make every area you want the player to explore relevant to said story or plot. That was most people's issue with Inquisition's size (not that I have said issues). As long as you're visiting a place of plot moving significance you're good to go.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 24, 2017 16:29:41 GMT
I'd like it to be the same size/effort as DAI but have the focus shifted from multiple massive landscapes to more branching story and heavier narrative missions. If that makes sense. I like 60-100 hour games that are that long because of story not because I have to ride the slowest horse ever or walk all over the place. How nice would be! ( Sadly, I don't think, that ever will happen...) If you cross your fingers, I'll cross mine and maybe, just maybe, we might get lucky!
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Post by Iakus on Mar 24, 2017 16:55:44 GMT
I don't like urban settings. I find them too concentrated. I would much rather range across the countryside. I think having big spaces works better if they're not jam packed with content. The Deep Roads in DAO, for example, should have been bigger. I didn't want any more content in them; I just thought their scale could have been demonstrated more clearly with more space. The way DAI's zones worked was good for me, for the most part, though too much of that content was unsatisfying. Some of the fetch and collection quests should have been longer more inter-related quest lines. But the scale of the areas and the density of content in them was something I really liked. The monsters respawned too quickly, though, I think. Or perhaps they shouldn't have been able to respawn on top of us. I'd like to see a mix: a lot of countryside with at least one major urban center: A Baldur's Gate, an Athkatla, a Citadel, etc.
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Post by Catilina on Mar 24, 2017 16:57:37 GMT
How nice would be! ( Sadly, I don't think, that ever will happen...) If you cross your fingers, I'll cross mine and maybe, just maybe, we might get lucky! Oh, yes, that may help, and at full moon, at midnight three times spit backward over your shoulder...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 17:26:13 GMT
Blow it up!
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
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Post by midnight tea on Mar 24, 2017 17:48:37 GMT
The scale of the game's plot or story isn't as relevant as the ability to make every area you want the player to explore relevant to said story or plot. That was most people's issue with Inquisition's size (not that I have said issues). As long as you're visiting a place of plot moving significance you're good to go. Well, here's the thing... they were. Every major zone plot was relevant in one way or another tied to efforts of Inquisition to stopping Corypheus - even a great deal of side quests and exploration has been tied to it, for example: gaining clues that eventually led us to shutting mine in Emprise du Lion (saving peasants and tracking red lyrium delivery throughout Emerald Graves, finding secluded caverns in Western Approach that showed us that they've experimented with lyrium, finding old dwarven mine that has been converted to experimenting with red lyrium on templars on Storm Coast, etc). I think the argument could be made about link between side content and crit path could have been made more pronounced - but them being relevant to said story or plot? That's been there already. ...And I don't necessarily think that I agree that most side content should be tied to story and plot - or at least, immediate story and plot. I liked exploring ancient elvhen and dwarven ruins and getting all the hints of larger story there, I liked all the little quests that have made the world more lived in. Heck, many people have responded well to Jaws Of Hakkon plot structure that didn't necessarily tie to main story, but had us learn more about the Avvar and history of the region. So it's more a matter how these quests are structured or how the content is presented rather than relevance per se.
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Post by shroomofdoom on Mar 24, 2017 19:19:21 GMT
If you cross your fingers, I'll cross mine and maybe, just maybe, we might get lucky! Oh, yes, that may help, and at full moon, at midnight three times spit backward over your shoulder... Now your talking! If enough of us invoke dark names in secret ritual, we're bound to get what we want, right? Or was that on my list of things not to do.... meh, what harm could come from prancing naked beneath the moon and calling out the dark and forgotten gods of development promises unfulfilled? It's not like DA4 could become a bland and insipid soulless vessel for our sorrow and regrets for what might have been.... Oh, wait, that might actually happen, best not to tempt fate and stick with crossed fingers and wishful thinking, much safer that way.
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