Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Mar 20, 2017 21:15:34 GMT
Open worlds aren't a problem. They are well designed, with lots of different structures and outposts etc. The problem is the stuff they make you do on them. Going up and scanning / finding / elminating / killing / activating / releasing someone or something, is never fun. Having to do that 2 or 3 times, per mission, on all the different corners of a world? That's the problem. This is the worst that exploration has been in this franchise since Mass Effect 1. Both space exploration, with that awful tedious space travel animation, and planetary exploration with mundane side-quests, make these worlds feel like massive, empty maps. There wasn't any exploration in 2 & 3... there's no way I'd agree with you even slightly that it's worse than 1.
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Post by projectpatdc on Mar 20, 2017 21:15:41 GMT
Open worlds aren't a problem. They are well designed, with lots of different structures and outposts etc. The problem is the stuff they make you do on them. Going up and scanning / finding / elminating / killing / activating / releasing someone or something, is never fun. Having to do that 2 or 3 times, per mission, on all the different corners of a world? That's the problem. This is the worst that exploration has been in this franchise since Mass Effect 1. Both space exploration, with that awful tedious space travel animation, and planetary exploration with mundane side-quests, make these worlds feel like massive, empty maps. Not having land vehicles moving about or vehicle combat to make traveling more fun also affects this. I never really cared about Horizon feeling sometimes empty because it was slaps guns no intense traveling from point A to point B with little random events of people needing help or small battles breaking out. The same goes for Red Dead Redemption. The world is huge and empty but the little random distractions and encounters on both foot and horse made the experience feel more alive. I do like that colonies in ME:A have shuttles come and go after you have established a settlement and there are random Kett drop ships. I think just having those parked vehicles be more dynamic and add in some vehicle combat to diversify the gameplay, and the experience will feel more complete
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Fen'Harel Faceman
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Mar 20, 2017 21:16:18 GMT
For some people, perhaps. Definitely not for me, I had fun exploring Eos. All I'm saying is if they're going to do it, do it right. I know what you said, you don't have to repeat yourself. I just disagree with you. They did it right.
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Post by MattMan031 on Mar 20, 2017 21:17:20 GMT
There's nothing inherently wrong with open world games. Nothing at all. The only real issue is that companies like to boast how big the world is but fail to go into detail what we would be doing in these big open worlds. Nobody really cares about how big the world is we mostly care about what that world has in store for us that makes us want to venture in it.
I think Jim Sterling kinda voices this concern better than I can.
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Post by isaidlunch on Mar 20, 2017 21:17:37 GMT
I completely agree, and anyone who says TW3's open-world was done well is a rotten liar. Copy-paste bandit camps and smuggler caches are not good content - it's a poor excuse to justify open-world in a game where it doesn't belong. Both CDPR and Bioware games would be far better off without open-world.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Mar 20, 2017 21:21:08 GMT
Open worlds aren't a problem. They are well designed, with lots of different structures and outposts etc. The problem is the stuff they make you do on them. Going up and scanning / finding / elminating / killing / activating / releasing someone or something, is never fun. Having to do that 2 or 3 times, per mission, on all the different corners of a world? That's the problem. This is the worst that exploration has been in this franchise since Mass Effect 1. Both space exploration, with that awful tedious space travel animation, and planetary exploration with mundane side-quests, make these worlds feel like massive, empty maps. There wasn't any exploration in 2 & 3... there's no way I'd agree with you even slightly that it's worse than 1. It's pretty hard to make the exploration worse than 1.
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Post by colfoley on Mar 20, 2017 21:22:21 GMT
I completely agree, and anyone who says TW3's open-world was done well is a rotten liar. Copy-paste bandit camps and smuggler caches are not good content - it's a poor excuse to justify open-world in a game where it doesn't belong. Both CDPR and Bioware games would be far better off without open-world. meh. I'm not a rotten liar and i thought it was pretty well done. The bandit camps were hella fun and the story with the rest of the game was amazing. Some stuff i ignored. Some i sought out. Just like DA I.
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Post by projectpatdc on Mar 20, 2017 21:23:51 GMT
I completely agree, and anyone who says TW3's open-world was done well is a rotten liar. Copy-paste bandit camps and smuggler caches are not good content - it's a poor excuse to justify open-world in a game where it doesn't belong. Both CDPR and Bioware games would be far better off without open-world. They're more fun though if you have an imagination and don't like being forced down narrow corridors. I'll take my Witcher 3 and Zelda BOTW any day over linear games that last 15 hours and gather dust. I think it's better to just reduce the size to make up for quality. Arkham knight was spot on in terms of size othe open world with isolated linear experiences. Linear experiences aren't a bad thing either. A game just shouldn't be completely linear. The level of atmosphere and detail of quests in a compact open world would fit Masseffect nicely.
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Post by ellehaym on Mar 20, 2017 21:27:08 GMT
I wish less rpgs focus on making their games open world, namely ones that normally didn't do such things like ME, Dragon Age and Final Fantasy. It's costly in terms of time and money and as a result the story seems to suffer.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 20, 2017 21:38:37 GMT
I agree. BioWare should stop chasing the Open World (Skyrim) dream and just go for a more focused and condensed smaller exploration based gameplay.
That said, this is better than Inquisition. Don't let reviews jade you. Just because it has less polish (as in "polish") and is a 2017 game and not a 2014 game doesn't mean it's worse. Personally I'm enjoying myself a lot more with it right now. The side-quests are actually involving this time.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Mar 20, 2017 21:39:31 GMT
Open worlds aren't a problem. They are well designed, with lots of different structures and outposts etc. The problem is the stuff they make you do on them. Going up and scanning / finding / elminating / killing / activating / releasing someone or something, is never fun. Having to do that 2 or 3 times, per mission, on all the different corners of a world? That's the problem. This is the worst that exploration has been in this franchise since Mass Effect 1. Both space exploration, with that awful tedious space travel animation, and planetary exploration with mundane side-quests, make these worlds feel like massive, empty maps. There wasn't any exploration in 2 & 3... there's no way I'd agree with you even slightly that it's worse than 1. 2 had exploration in hubs and mini-areas during the missions with special optional NPCs and such. ME3 is the one that had zero exploration.
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Post by anacronian on Mar 20, 2017 21:41:35 GMT
I could live with the open world aspect, I could have lived with the animations.
What I can't live with is the embarrassingly poor writing.
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Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on Mar 20, 2017 21:45:39 GMT
There wasn't any exploration in 2 & 3... there's no way I'd agree with you even slightly that it's worse than 1. 2 had exploration in hubs and mini-areas during the missions with special optional NPCs and such. ME3 is the one that had zero exploration. No, there was no meaningful exploration in 2... played it a zillion times love it (with all its flaws) but no... no exploration. The only game that really had any was 1, and it wasn't that interesting.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Mar 20, 2017 21:46:02 GMT
I could live with the open world aspect, I could have lived with the animations. What I can't live with is the embarrassingly poor writing. What's so bad about the writing?
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Post by theflyingzamboni on Mar 20, 2017 22:05:39 GMT
I hope the open world meme ends soon, even Witcher would have been a better game with less open areas and more "Polish"In seriousness though, open world is a trend that needs to be massively scaled back. I remember back in the day a lot of people complained about any RPG that wasn't open world. Well, now they're all open world, and by and large it's one of the worst trends in gaming. It's rarely done well; usually, the extra space and copy-paste content developers have to fill it with to keep costs reasonable just waters down the overall experience. Sometimes less is more, folks.
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Post by guanxi on Mar 20, 2017 22:09:14 GMT
Doing open-world cheaply is the problem. In order to do open-world well with traditional BioWare quality storytelling and polish you'd need a budget and team size comparable to Rockstar Games. Incidentally, nobody else in the entire industry has that so they all fall short but it doesn't stop them trying.
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Post by alanc9 on Mar 20, 2017 22:14:07 GMT
Open worlds aren't a problem. They are well designed, with lots of different structures and outposts etc. The problem is the stuff they make you do on them. Going up and scanning / finding / elminating / killing / activating / releasing someone or something, is never fun. Having to do that 2 or 3 times, per mission, on all the different corners of a world? That's the problem. This is the worst that exploration has been in this franchise since Mass Effect 1. Both space exploration, with that awful tedious space travel animation, and planetary exploration with mundane side-quests, make these worlds feel like massive, empty maps. There wasn't any exploration in 2 & 3... there's no way I'd agree with you even slightly that it's worse than 1. As I read the post, I think he said that ME:A's exploration is not quite as bad as ME1. Depending on your definition of exploration, ME2 and ME3 can be said to have no exploration. I'll take zero exploration over bad exploration. YMMV. As for the general topic, I'll go with the consensus. Open-world is something I put up with rather than like.
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Post by degs29 on Mar 20, 2017 22:15:22 GMT
Yeah, I remember being extremely worried that TW3 was going to be open world. But they pulled in off brilliantly. When I heard ME:A was going to be exploration-based, I did get a tinge of unease, but if CDPR could pull it off, why couldn't Bioware? The answer is EA.
While I'm enjoying the game a lot, there are some serious issues with it. And I think that's because of mismanagement. They went for something that was outside their wheelhouse, and sacrificed their strengths in the process.
Also, hi Dutch!
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Mar 20, 2017 22:33:08 GMT
How is Ubisoft superior? Sure they look good but aren't that high on content. I think some of WB games would have been better if they where linear tbh. Arkham knight, City, origin and middle-earth did open world better than DAI and MEA. I base this primarily on how much shitfetch quests there are. Ubisoft games like AC4, AC2 and Far Cry 3 do it better as well. It's only recent titles that they fuck up on. No, they did fuckin' not. And you haven't even played the game yet. Quit your bs. Also, there's nothing special about AC2, 4, and Far Cry 3's side quests. Absolute none. Bioware's at least have a solid narrative behind them, as evidenced in some from DAI, and now a lot more in MEA. All Ubisoft games' sidequest are either "go here, kill this individual" or "go here, kill this creature." Batman Arkham Knight's sidequests were basically rule of three of doing the same thing until the meet up with the "boss" is unlocked. Shadow Of Mordor barely had side quests, and they're all forgettable.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Mar 20, 2017 22:34:38 GMT
Arkham knight, City, origin and middle-earth did open world better than DAI and MEA. I base this primarily on how much shitfetch quests there are. Ubisoft games like AC4, AC2 and Far Cry 3 do it better as well. It's only recent titles that they fuck up on. No, they did fuckin' not. And you haven't even played the game yet. Quit your bs. Also, there's nothing special about AC2, 4, and Far Cry 3's side quests. Absolute none. Bioware's at least have a solid narrative behind them, as evidenced in some from DAI, and now a lot more in MEA. All Ubisoft games' sidequest are either "go here, kill this individual" or "go here, kill this creature." Batman Arkham Knight's sidequests were basically rule of three of doing the same thing until the meet up with the "boss" is unlocked. Shadow Of Mordor barely had side quests, and they're all forgettable. Shadow of Mordor would have been far superior if it was linear.
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Post by Element Zero on Mar 20, 2017 22:35:20 GMT
Yeah, I remember being extremely worried that TW3 was going to be open world. But they pulled in off brilliantly. When I heard ME:A was going to be exploration-based, I did get a tinge of unease, but if CDPR could pull it off, why couldn't Bioware? The answer is EA.
While I'm enjoying the game a lot, there are some serious issues with it. And I think that's because of mismanagement. They went for something that was outside their wheelhouse, and sacrificed their strengths in the process. Also, hi Dutch! How in the world does EA shoulder the blame for this, assuming "this" is indeed a bad thing? BioWare has had 5 years to develop a product, and have delayed the game at least once. EA has been exceedingly patient in allowing them time to make this happen. If this went sideways, it's on BioWare. They made the decisions the led to developmental dead-ends, delays, etc... that happen with all projects. This one, though, always had the vibe of a project struggling along a bit further behind and maybe lost in high weeds. That's all on BioWare, if the final product is indeed not up to par.
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Post by Reznore on Mar 20, 2017 22:37:56 GMT
There's a character named Dutch in Andromeda, and he is super grumpy. I like to imagine it is an homage.
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Post by wolfsite on Mar 20, 2017 22:39:15 GMT
Hi Dutch
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Post by degs29 on Mar 20, 2017 22:45:18 GMT
Yeah, I remember being extremely worried that TW3 was going to be open world. But they pulled in off brilliantly. When I heard ME:A was going to be exploration-based, I did get a tinge of unease, but if CDPR could pull it off, why couldn't Bioware? The answer is EA.
While I'm enjoying the game a lot, there are some serious issues with it. And I think that's because of mismanagement. They went for something that was outside their wheelhouse, and sacrificed their strengths in the process. Also, hi Dutch! How in the world does EA shoulder the blame for this, assuming "this" is indeed a bad thing? BioWare has had 5 years to develop a product, and have delayed the game at least once. EA has been exceedingly patient in allowing them time to make this happen. If this went sideways, it's on BioWare. They made the decisions the led to developmental dead-ends, delays, etc... that happen with all projects. This one, though, always had the vibe of a project struggling along a bit further behind and maybe lost in high weeds. That's all on BioWare, if the final product is indeed not up to par. The introduction of a third IP and the decision to ship a flagship franchise to the B-team. I also blame EA for giving this game the same paltry budget as ME3. ME3 had established assets, wasn't open world, and was already set up. ME:A is a whole other galaxy, huge in scope, and is basically starting from the ground up with Frostbite. I don't put all the blame on EA. Bioware certainly plays a role. I'm not one of those people who think EA is the worst company out there, but I think EA is the biggest culprit in many of ME:A's flaws. Also, I don't think the game is bad. I'm enjoying it quite a lot. But its flaws are undeniable.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Mar 20, 2017 22:45:25 GMT
There wasn't any exploration in 2 & 3... there's no way I'd agree with you even slightly that it's worse than 1. As I read the post, I think he said that ME:A's exploration is not quite as bad as ME1. Depending on your definition of exploration, ME2 and ME3 can be said to have no exploration. I'll take zero exploration over bad exploration. YMMV. As for the general topic, I'll go with the consensus. Open-world is something I put up with rather than like. In an ideal world, I love the open world RPG. It feels more believable to have a vast world where you're journey takes place in. it allows for many amazing Role Playing opportunities, for the stuff movies and books never cover, like the Hero making camp for the night, chopping wood for a fire, taking idle conversation with your traveling companions. This is granted all head canon stuff that can be done regardless of open world, but imo open world helps facilitate these things. Why else would mods like Frostfall, Realistic Needs and Diseases and such, be some of the most popular mods for Skyrim? why people loved Hardcore Mode in New Vegas? Open world provides many enjoyable optional experiences and provides opportunity for tons of immersion. With all that said, I cannot stand how companies do open world in practice. Jim Sterling basically sums it up perfectly for me. I've historically gotten more enjoyment from the writing and characters from games that were not open world, and there is an obvious reason for that, because all the resources that normally go to building giant landmasses go instead to the writing and development. I enjoyed Witcher 3, but only after my second play through of the game, which i had to be talked into. Rockstar are the only devs that can consistently be proven to develop quality open world games. CDPR has given but a single example, and Horizon Zero Dawn is but a single game, and even Horizon is overloaded with damn collectibles. Many old time Zelda fans cannot stand BOTW for various reasons, but from everything I've heard (since I don't play Nintendo games) Zelda is basically open world perfection. these games are anomalies imo. I will take quality over size at the end of the day. I've put over 3,000 hours into Oblivion, and over 2,000 into Skyrim. I regret none of it and found myself enjoying 99% of it. I absolutely love DAI, and personally consider it the best DA made so far. It has the best main plot since before the EA buyout, if you include Trespasser. It also happens to include what is so far my all time favorite romance option, the angelic Cassandra Pentagahst. (forget all you "eeew Big Jaw!" ppl ) But the open world aspects of DAI has literally nothing to do with my love for that game, and in many ways makes me love it less than I otherwise would have. That game had no reason at all to be "open world", since imo the pinnacle of the game is all the content that takes place in the not open areas where the main plot and character quests takes place.
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