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Post by psychomunkay on Mar 24, 2017 21:14:19 GMT
5? You are crazy. It's no better than DAI's areas. Get out of here will ya. Delusions... Delusions and Self-deception everywhere. But there are no "truths' here, just opinions and discussion of a subjective matter. Hence, self-deception can't really apply. Delusional would also be a stretch, as one would have to ignore an empirical truth for a delusion to occur =)
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Post by kerg on Mar 24, 2017 21:53:22 GMT
I semi-agree with the OP on this issue, but in truth I think a bigger part of the issue is "trophy-whoring". People pushing to get 100% on things is what burns them out. You really don't have to do all the filler stuff anyways, but then people say things like, "but i'm missing out on that XP, or I want the trophy!". Not really saying anything is wrong with that in itself, moreso just pointing to it as a pretty big factor to how people get burned out. I'd imagine the majority of people that feel like MEA is too "grindy" with filler side-quests are also the same people that look at the map to decide which quest to hit next with proximity in consideration. Because they're planning on doing it as "efficiently" as possible to get EVERYTHING cleared out. The people not as upset are probably ignoring the majority of "tasks" and just doing story with a location and ally quest here and there mixed in. Just my 2cents. I agree. But what is so frustrating to completionists (like me) is that we have spent our whole lives playing games in that manner, and it was great. When I replay the ME trilogy, I actually have a spreadsheet with every... single... quest listed. I mark them off as I complete them. And I have a blast, because it's only like 50-100 quests, and most of them are good. But suddenly, this open world craze hits. And all the games we used to love switch to a huge open world format because that's what sells now. Instead of 50-100 quests, it's 300, or 500, and half of them are sh*t fetch quests. And there are markers all over the map, tormenting you, that won't let a completionist ignore them. You talk to someone and a quest pops into your log, sitting there, tormenting you. So you do them all. Clear your quest log, because that's what you've always done. And then by the end, you finish the game and you never, ever go back to that game. You are just so relieved that it's finally over. So DA:O, ME1-3, as a completionist they take me like, what, 75 hours each? And I've replayed them like 4 times over the years and had a BLAST with each playthrough. Contrast that with DAI and TW3, which EACH took me 300 hours for ONE playthrough. And 1/2 of my time was spent bored as hell just tediously exploring the huge maps and making sure I cleared all the side quests. And I have never gone back to play either of those games, and I probably never will. I'm giving MEA a try, and we'll see if it's any better, but I'm not very optimistic. And this is where someone says that's your problem... open world is great... go play other games. There AREN'T any other great linear story-driven Western RPG's like DAO and ME1-3. Bioware was all we had, and the massive open world craze took it from us.
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Post by psychomunkay on Mar 24, 2017 22:13:25 GMT
I semi-agree with the OP on this issue, but in truth I think a bigger part of the issue is "trophy-whoring". People pushing to get 100% on things is what burns them out. You really don't have to do all the filler stuff anyways, but then people say things like, "but i'm missing out on that XP, or I want the trophy!". Not really saying anything is wrong with that in itself, moreso just pointing to it as a pretty big factor to how people get burned out. I'd imagine the majority of people that feel like MEA is too "grindy" with filler side-quests are also the same people that look at the map to decide which quest to hit next with proximity in consideration. Because they're planning on doing it as "efficiently" as possible to get EVERYTHING cleared out. The people not as upset are probably ignoring the majority of "tasks" and just doing story with a location and ally quest here and there mixed in. Just my 2cents. I agree. But what is so frustrating to completionists (like me) is that we have spent our whole lives playing games in that manner, and it was great. When I replay the ME trilogy, I actually have a spreadsheet with every... single... quest listed. I mark them off as I complete them. And I have a blast, because it's only like 50-100 quests, and most of them are good. But suddenly, this open world craze hits. And all the games we used to love switch to a huge open world format because that's what sells now. Instead of 50-100 quests, it's 300, or 500, and half of them are sh*t fetch quests. And there are markers all over the map, tormenting you, that won't let a completionist ignore them. You talk to someone and a quest pops into your log, sitting there, tormenting you. So you do them all. Clear your quest log, because that's what you've always done. And then by the end, you finish the game and you never, ever go back to that game. You are just so relieved that it's finally over. So DA:O, ME1-3, as a completionist they take me like, what, 75 hours each? And I've replayed them like 4 times over the years and had a BLAST with each playthrough. Contrast that with DAI and TW3, which EACH took me 300 hours for ONE playthrough. And 1/2 of my time was spent bored as hell just tediously exploring the huge maps and making sure I cleared all the side quests. And I have never gone back to play either of those games, and I probably never will. I'm giving MEA a try, and we'll see if it's any better, but I'm not very optimistic. And this is where someone says that's your problem... open world is great... go play other games. There AREN'T any other great linear story-driven Western RPG's like DAO and ME1-3. Bioware was all we had, and the massive open world craze took it from us. I hear ya, trust me. It's the same issue I had with DA:I and MGS. I almost went insane. But they cured me lol. They cured me of ever caring to 100% a game ever again. So now, I just enjoy what I want to do and ignore the rest. But trust me, I understand your pain and relate well.
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Post by lyvean on Mar 24, 2017 22:21:02 GMT
Witcher 3 had great content. Side quests were great. That is why it was a success. Because it didn't have fetch quests or Ubisoft desing of shit content.
It is all about the content. Open world is not the problem. The problem is that BioWare doesn't have the talent, the resources or they are simply not allowed to fill the open worlds with quality content.
And the more you buy their games, the more of this mediocrity you are going to get.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Mar 24, 2017 22:28:48 GMT
Nope, Bioware open worlds are inferior to Ubisoft and especially WB. Whoa whoa whoa...have you played Watch Dogs, Division, or Ghost Recon Wildlands??? I'm sorry, but Ubisoft is the poster child for filler quest structure. Haven't played them but I know Ubisoft is somewhat shit at openworld. I have played AC4 blackflag which is a better openworld game than inquisition or andromeda.
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Post by lyvean on Mar 24, 2017 22:34:44 GMT
Ubisoft has impressive open worlds when it comes to technical achievements.
The content is the worst in the industry. They ran AC to the ground and if there is a god, their franchises will sell shit. Just look at what they are doing with Honor.
They have become worse than EA by far.
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Post by ShiftyCow on Mar 24, 2017 22:40:35 GMT
It certainly sounded like it was a key issue in several of the reviews I've read. They pointed out too many unrelated side quests, too easy to lose the narrative thread, etc... I recall discussing this concern years ago on the oBSN; and it never really went away, did it? They probably should've stuck with the more focused, 35-hour corridor shooter. They were pretty good at that. Amen.
They were pretty damn good at that and a compelling story to drive it.
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Post by jamiecotc on Mar 24, 2017 23:09:44 GMT
Open world is not the problem. BW's "single-player MMO" style gameplay design to open world is the problem.
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Post by mugwump on Mar 25, 2017 0:51:30 GMT
TW3 would have been a much better game with smaller maps and with most of the filler content left on the cutting room floor. Couldn't disagree more, I found the ancillary content in that game to be an absolute joy. Almost without exception.
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Post by DragonEffect on Mar 25, 2017 1:11:53 GMT
The problem is having an open world with missions such as stick three banners here, fight random mob there or wander around like an idiot to collect 20x elfroot. What's the relevance in doing all that? These are all menial tasks that add nothing to the character or the player. They just feel like taking a long walk in the park with nothing to do, just having random encounters with friends and foes who you'll never meet again for the rest of the game. How is that supposed to be fun? Sure, admiring the landscape is neat. But for how long can you stand walking around forests and deserts until you grow tired of all that pointless walking and go right back to Skyhold to advance the plot?
Nobody wants dungeons anymore. They feel confining and linear. But each area must have a relevant main quest going on or something similar, which helps advance the plot somehow or is at least interesting enough to provide relevant content. Such as the loyalty missions. Tons and tons of dialog options open up after them and your relationship with your mates advances.
A lot of the forts we conquered or recovered in Inquisition could've been quests on itself. Quests with cutscenes, discussing military strategy in the war room, leading epic battles between armies -ours and the enemy - and the chance to hear what your advisors and companions had to say about the advantages of the newly conquered fort. Instead, the Inquisitor sort of just wanders around an open area until he findsa fort and mechanically vanquishes enemies until all of them are defeated. After that, nobody comments anything. It's like all your work doesn't matter the least. "Just another day at work." That hardly feels like a worthy quest, with your reward merely being some random points you earn for the accomplishment.
One thing about the open worlds which was cool, though, were the dragon battles. Even the soundtrack changed to fit the mood for a fight.
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Post by Garo on Mar 25, 2017 1:38:53 GMT
This game have all sorts of problems and BW still struggles with open world, but damn, I am still having so much fun with it. Every time I get tired with driving on planets, I go to talk to my crew or craft something or just push plot forward. It's still well made game for me. Tho it has MANY issues.
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Post by kerg on Mar 25, 2017 1:39:15 GMT
TW3 would have been a much better game with smaller maps and with most of the filler content left on the cutting room floor. Couldn't disagree more, I found the ancillary content in that game to be an absolute joy. Almost without exception. You enjoyed clearing all 60 or however many smugglers caches? I found it about as fun as peeling potatoes or washing dishes. I almost wanted to cry when I would click on a notice board and 12-15 new question marks would pop up out in the ocean. Obviously, if you enjoy that type of thing, you are a very different type of gamer than me, which is fine, but we probably shouldn't be playing the same games. Which is kind of my point. Bioware used to make my favorite type of game, and now instead they make your favorite type of game. Good change for someone like you, bad change for someone like me.
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Post by fizzypop on Mar 25, 2017 1:40:01 GMT
I don't think open world is inherently a problem, as other companies thrive on making excellent open world games. The problem is that crafting a story that works well in an open world design is clearly not one of BioWare's strengths. Though I'll be honest, i'm starting to wonder what BioWare's strengths actually are, if indeed they have any. I actually think that this story works well for a semi-open world. The hardest part of an open world is creating content that is both optional and meaningful to the world. Skyrim I think did a good job in many aspects. You can prioritize the main story and still play in the open world without any real issues. You also have an entire second main story line quest that's optional, the civil war. You also have to go looking for a lot of the optional content which makes it great for you to craft your own character and choose if you want to do all the side content or leave it for later. This story was perfect for an open world, but they just wasted it a lot. There is a lot in MEA that could have been optional near main story content that they wasted. All of that being said open world is one of the hardest to do right. Very few games seem to achieve it.
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Post by slimgrin on Mar 25, 2017 1:42:29 GMT
TW3 would have been a much better game with smaller maps and with most of the filler content left on the cutting room floor. Couldn't disagree more, I found the ancillary content in that game to be an absolute joy. Almost without exception. The genius thing they did is subvert player expectations by mixing it up like devs hadn't done so before. There is filler content, but you can't be sure where it is, and even the filler has an added touch most of the time.
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Post by mugwump on Mar 25, 2017 1:49:45 GMT
Couldn't disagree more, I found the ancillary content in that game to be an absolute joy. Almost without exception. You enjoyed clearing all 60 or however many smugglers caches? I found it about as fun as peeling potatoes or washing dishes. I almost wanted to cry when I would click on a notice board and 12-15 new question marks would pop up out in the ocean. Obviously, if you enjoy that type of thing, you are a very different type of gamer than me, which is fine, but we probably shouldn't be playing the same games. Which is kind of my point. Bioware used to make my favorite type of game, and now instead they make your favorite type of game. Good change for someone like you, bad change for someone like me. You miss the part of my post that said almost without exception? But yes, I take your point that the sheer size of Biowares recent (albeit very beautiful) open world games kind of dilutes the narrative focus of each. Which is a shame. I just didn't find that to be the case with TW3.
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Post by garrusfan1 on Mar 25, 2017 1:55:53 GMT
I really wish they would have stayed like the previous ME games. The stories were so much better and funner in my opinion. I find open world almost always suffers in story
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Post by fizzypop on Mar 25, 2017 2:03:46 GMT
I really wish they would have stayed like the previous ME games. The stories were so much better and funner in my opinion. I find open world almost always suffers in story Me too. Though I do like skyrim, I actually prefer linear stories. However, I'm a story player and absolutely prefer a good story over everything else. I hate having to spend hours going all over a map instead of focusing on the story. I wish more games would appreciate linear story telling again.
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Post by saga on Mar 25, 2017 2:29:26 GMT
I think that the primary issue with open worlds is that the larger they are, the more content is needed to fill them and make them feel "alive." This, of course, demands resources. And when there are limited resources, developers end up creating mindless filler quests in an attempt to somehow fill up the massive world they've built. Unfortunately, this leads to a great deal of bredth with no depth, and players feel disappointed and disconnected from the world.
Of course, side quests are optional and it's easy to say, "Just choose not to do them," but the unfortunate fact is that just the presence of these quests means that time and effort were taken away from other aspects of the game to create them, so even players who try to streamline the games by only doing main quests end up with a sub-par gaming experience.
I love open worlds, but at this point I think that the best thing is to have smaller open worlds with more concentrated, deep content. Making a world enormous just for the sake of it being enormous is pointless, and I wish that developers would stop trying to create larger and larger ones each game. It's become a bragging point in RPGs that all too often results in fewer resources being spent on vital aspects like characterization, dialogue, animations, and creative quest lines.
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Post by Petroshenko on Mar 25, 2017 2:56:17 GMT
The problem is utilizing bigger maps properly. Bioware should be doing very few but extensive sidequests & planetary stories on each planet instead of 5 million little sidequests that fill the Journal in just a few minutes after landing. After few hours, I have no clue which mission I'm doing for whom and what reason, just mindlessly running from 1 dot to another all mixed up. Having more dots with pointless mineral/fauna scanning collectible busywork only adds up to that.
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Post by Element Zero on Mar 25, 2017 6:08:06 GMT
Since I did comment on page one, I thought I'd briefly update my opinion.
Thus far, playing long hours since Tuesday, I've not yet grown tired of the ME approach to open-world. This setting and story fits it well. While there are similarities to DAI, the monotony has been removed. Side quests have worthwhile stories. Often, completing even a small side quest feels as if it has contributed to the Initiative or the local community in a reasonably meaningful way. Also, while I play DAI despite its gameplay, MEA has excellent gameplay. At level 25, I'm just now rounding out my primary build. I'll be looking forward to diversifying into additional Profiles and builds, now. (I've actually retrained, also.)
All of this keeps the game fresh and engaging. So far, I'm pleased with the game and the quasi-open world setup. There's plenty of time for me to tire of it, no doubt; but I doubt that will happen. Not with this gameplay and setting.
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Post by Ponendus on Mar 25, 2017 6:19:48 GMT
I was cursing open world nonsense about five minutes into Dragon Age: Inquisition. It's just as bad in MEA. It just needs to stop, its totally unnecessary for Bioware to do and it just makes the game tedious and boring.
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Post by cooldude on Mar 25, 2017 6:30:19 GMT
Bioware just can't do open world. They can't. DAI and MEA are filled with fetch quests and quality content is an all time low in comparison to their previous titles. MEA has the same problems as DAI and the dialogue options most of them end up being either hopeful or stern. Ryder is less of a player character than Shepard. SWTOR, DA2, & ME3 was the massive wound, DAI the last breath and MEA the death rattle. For shame. It wouldn't be the problem if doing the fetch quests and mining weren't required to get cool weapons, augments, and armor. Remember Mass Effect 1 and Dragon Age Origins? No busy work. To get the best stuff, all you needed to do is play the game.
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Post by qwib on Mar 25, 2017 6:58:15 GMT
Da:i and me:a are not open world though.
Or I have another definition of open world.
Different instances or locations have to be loaded are not open world for me.
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Post by cooldude on Mar 25, 2017 7:29:36 GMT
I think that the primary issue with open worlds is that the larger they are, the more content is needed to fill them and make them feel "alive." This, of course, demands resources. And when there are limited resources, developers end up creating mindless filler quests in an attempt to somehow fill up the massive world they've built. Now days they have software that can automatically sync the talking of npcs and create random animations. I wouldn't doubt if most of the open world was generated by a program with defined algorithms, and 10-15% of the world and its content was made and put in by hand.
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Post by Ponendus on Mar 25, 2017 12:33:52 GMT
I think that the primary issue with open worlds is that the larger they are, the more content is needed to fill them and make them feel "alive." This, of course, demands resources. And when there are limited resources, developers end up creating mindless filler quests in an attempt to somehow fill up the massive world they've built. Unfortunately, this leads to a great deal of bredth with no depth, and players feel disappointed and disconnected from the world. Absolutely. You should create enough environment to support the story and gameplay content. I get the sense Bioware lately is creating these environments first, and then desperately trying to fill it with meaning. It's just so unnecessary.
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