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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 23, 2017 19:50:29 GMT
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 23, 2017 19:44:39 GMT
There's always bots... Unless there aren't bots. There are bots, right?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 23, 2017 18:04:35 GMT
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 23, 2017 13:32:49 GMT
Yeah, this is starting to sound a bit like "well we say the robots will always form skynet and try to kill organics and organics will lose. No, don't ask us about the evidence to the contrary, don't try to employ logic. It just is, ok? Now pick a color."
What the writers intend is not in question. The fact that it doesn't actually follow, based on what we've seen is. But I suspect Faceman won't change his point of view so maybe it's agree to disagree time.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 23, 2017 13:21:00 GMT
Nope.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 22:15:21 GMT
Yeah once I tried the whole Jedi Council forums thing. Once.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 22:07:15 GMT
Eh. As long as she roasts some ice zombies and possibly the Mad Bitch, I have no real beef. My friend was speculating what if the White Walkers have a counter to dragons? What if they have... ice dragons? Which, holy shit, may actually be a thing in GoT/ASoIF lore. "Ice dragons are said to roam the Shivering Sea and the White Waste. Reportedly, they are far larger than the dragons of Valyria and are made of living ice, with eyes of pale blue crystal, vast translucent wings, and breath of cold."
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 21:32:03 GMT
That's speculation. In the meantime, it's fact (on the show) that she defeated her enemy and the area is secure. Again, she achieved her goal. Sustaining her goal may be another matter, but that doesn't reduce the strength of my argument. It was fact the first time, too. Didn't stop the Sons of the Harpy from showing up. Given this wasn't her primary objective, the loss of time and resources (and of face, let's be honest- even if everyone's smitten by her, infallible she ain't, and everybody knows it) and high probability of relapse, I still call pisspoor decision making and leadership. Things that would get any other character killed several times over.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 20:57:43 GMT
Except it wasn't pitiful, because in the end (in the TV show) she's achieved her goals. The entire area has outlawed slavery and the resistance is crushed. She left Daario in charge of Meereen. That's a charitable interpretation of events. We've seen "the masters" allegedly killed before. Of course this time it will probably take because they've gotta wrap the show, but I wouldn't be at all confident that the area won't revert within days of her leaving, just like it did before.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 20:42:42 GMT
Free slaves. Give them a crack at a free life. Set up an attempt at fairer government. Stop the slaughter in the fighting pits (at least temporarily). Be the change. All one can do is try their best and then roll with it when things fuck up. In the TV series (the books haven't gotten that far) she also sets up an entire slave-free are in Essos. That's a nice sentiment. Here's a different analysis: Earlier you said she "grows into her leadership". In fact the opposite is true. She continually makes the same mistake over and over again, which is attempting to rule a population while making zero effort to understand their culture. No slaves, no rape, everyone's equal is nice and all but it ain't what that part of the world is about. She fails to understand this with the Dothraki and her khal and khalisar die for it. She fails to understand this at Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen and they revert the second she turns her back, while her loyalists die for her. But sure, she's a good leader because "the feels", or more specifically our modern sensibilities. While it's not wrong to try and work towards those ideals, huffing and puffing and attempting to go cold turkey across an entire culture like that is pitiful. At best you would have to use constant military force to exert that will (and she either doesn't or does it poorly) and that's problematic for other reasons. Not least of which that's not her damn purpose in life anyway. Get your kingdoms back, then you can (re)invade the savages and teach them civilization (because that's worked so well in RL too). Absolutely. The whole thing is basically about a bunch of imbeciles holding petty grudges and committing petty vendettas on each other while Big Bad is coming. It's basically a gazillion of Loghains trying to win in the civil war and hold back Orlesians in the face of upcoming Apocalypse. Srsly tho, magic and dragons would step up eventually, one way or the other. And a messiah figure would step up, either. It's just the way it was intended. lolno. Those "imbeciles" and their "petty grudges" made up almost the entirety of the world of the series for the majority of the run. And that power struggle is the most identifiable feature of the series. The freaking title logo has stags vs lions vs wolves. And most of the characters/main conflicts were actually based on medieval history. Look it up. I like looking at the big picture too, but you can't go through life expecting the apocalypse. But even if we say, sure, it's all about the White Walkers now, you know who's still a better developed messiah-ish character? Bran. Or Jon Snow. Or whoever Azor'ahai turns out to be. Because that actually uses explicit elements of prophecy and chosen one tropes. Daenerys's character and arc incorporate none of that. She just lucks out again and again and things go her way because plot. And while that may not be as remarkable in a different, more fantastic show, in a show that's been 90% brutal "realism" that's too jarring to go unnoticed/unchallenged. You misuse deus ex machina definition here. Dragons don't show up suddenly when we expect them the least. It's not bacteria in the Herbert Wells' War of the Worlds. It's not Tolkien's eagles that would magically appear in the moment they were needed most. Dragons and fire were Dany's main theme from the start and the process of her handling the dragons was always under our attention. Just because dragons are powerful and helped Daenerys to win some battles doesn't make them deus ex machina, just like Terminator helping Sarah Connor doesn't make him deus ex machina. Fire immunity is something they've probably stepped over the line with. I always thought Daenerys stepping in the fire was an act of Miracle--and Miracle is unique by definition. I didn't particularly like the scene in the dothraki palace because of re-use of her fire immunity. Oh please. Just because they're always there doesn't mean they don't fullfill the exact same role as a deus ex machina. The House of the Undying- would've been screwed if the warlock hadn't turned out to be super flammable for some reason. Also I believe it was the first time the dragons spat fire. Not unexpected (they're freakin dragons) but just as lucky. The Colliseum- the big dragon (again forget the name) literally pulls an Tolkien Eagle, coming in out of nowhere after being gone for most of the season to save Dany and friends just when they're about to bite it. Again I maintain that Astapor was the only use of dragons actually creditable to Daenerys because she planned the whole thing. Otherwise, I'd be inclined to give her the Dothraki palace victory as well, because again, her plan, using a known ability. Can't fault that, that'd be like faulting Superman for using flight or heat vision. But the will and the setup is what matters. Her other victories though? Daario gives her Yunkai, and a combination of Jorah, Daario, Grey Worm and Ser Barristan took Meereen. She did not appear involved in any of the practical aspects of those victories. No, her staff follows her either because she represents hope and change for them or because she's already changed their lives for the better. Jorah- wants to bang her Daario- wants to bang her Tyrion- no other choice (but probably wants to bang her) Everyone else- she's actually nice to them/people instead of being complete monsters. And in some cases she did do them a solid, sure. Varis might be the only one with an actual idealogical bend, as it is actually expressed in a different context that he is trying to work towards the greater good.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 16:23:25 GMT
She mostly brushed it off? What does that have to do with going through the nasty shit? So now she's penalized for having strength of character. Do we see her crying in the desert for 40 days? Nope. But then again, the closest I think we come to that is Tyrion drinking in the box carriage with Varris, Catelyn's lament about being unable to love Jon Snow. No character is shown going through the emotional rollercoaster of what tragedy just happened to them. As for the fault argument, we're going to agree to disagree. The whole series of unintended consequences is not the same thing as fault. If you don't know or acknowledge that, then we have no basis for further discussion. Yes, she does fuck up in Mereen. And she also does things right in Mereen. It's called growing into the position of leadership. I think you're far too cynical. As for Daenerys "paying" for her flaws, her story arc (unlike Robb's) isn't done yet. She could very well pay dearly for whatever. I don't know, there's a bit of back and forth here. You said "the things she went through would've wrecked most folks". Did you mean emotionally? Either way, I agree. And either way she was not "wrecked" in the least. You now say the show doesn't spend a lot of time on emotions. Fine. We take that out, she still was not practically "wrecked" by any reasonable definition of the term. Sure it was no picnic, but she kept rolling through, where other characters would've gotten stomped and hard in relative situations. Not because they'd be weak (no Stark was weak, Stannis wasn't weak, Tywinn wasn't weak) but because that's how it goes in Westeros. The arc of most characters is they do things mostly right, and they mostly win. Then they fuck up critically and get utterly wrecked. Or they get randomly wrecked because shit happens and shock value sells. Daenerys fucked up critically, arguably several times and kept going. What do you mean unintended consequences? What that's thing about Hell and a road...? Whether a consequence was intended or not is irrelevant. Could the consequence be forseen? That's the issue. Unforseeable consequences do exempt from fault. The idea that these consequences though were unforseeable I find highly dubious. What does she do right in Meereen? Stay there when her goal was reclaiming the Iron Throne? Attempting to completely change a culture overnight? Fundamentally misunderstanding the issues under her nose? But yes, her arc is not done. I suppose it is possible she can fall flat on her face at the end. But it seems unlikely now. And even if she does I'm not sure it would solve the problem. I guess it would depend how it's done.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 15:51:29 GMT
Well, it was never Martin's intention to write some preudo-historical book about a bunch of medieval quarrels. It's A Song of Ice and Fire after all. Dany represents fire here. She might end up to be a false messiah after all, but she's still a chosen one, so it's only fair that she got so much time and attention in both the books and the show. Her victories as well as stupidity are hers and hers only. You sure about that? With most of the series being about the politics/power struggles of the land and quite a few elements being directly based on medieval history and conflicts? I would say that is indeed the centerpoint of the whole series, with the magic coming in at the end because, fuck it might as well, otherwise why not just read the actual history? Also lol at the last bit. Apart from Astapor, every single victory is either dragon/fire immunity ex machina or someone else winning the battle for her. Half her staff follow her because they want to bang her and the other half follow her because she's not a complete fucking monster like everyone else they've known. Sorry, but "great inspiring leader" just isn't intrinsically on her resume. She wins solely because she's a) pretty, magical and c) not a dick. Perhaps that last is a double entendre if we want to indulge some feminist conspiracy theories. Man, you guys are making me sound like I really hate her. I really don't. I just think you've bought into the marketing a bit too much.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 15:42:08 GMT
I don't find it plausible to dismiss the shit that happened to her with an "And?". Totally lost the argument right there. The things that happened to her would have wrecked most folks.
No, Drogo dying wasn't her fault, her child dying wasn't her fault, her people dying wasn't her fault either. It all started when Drogo got sick, which is nobody's fault. She's a flawed character, but she's done pretty good for starting where she started. She had to take brave steps, like walking into the fire, surviving all she had lost without collapsing into despair, I don't think she gets enough credit - especially concerning she's a whiny teenager. What are you, agreeing with me now? They would've indeed wrecked most folk... and she's mostly brushed it off. Massive failure with her husband, child and people and almost dead in the desert? Who cares, time to go a-conquering. WHERE ARE MY DRAGONS?!! A token dream sequence or two doesn't make up for it. Both from an emotional and a practical perspective she goes through some horrible shit in the first two seasons... and it barely seems to trip her one bit. In a show where going to the toilet at the wrong time means a most undignified death. How is that not out of place? Then she screws up constantly in Meereen (something you don't seem to be really addressing), her people take the fall for her, but she's still set to take over the world somehow. Drogo dying was absolutely her fault. If she hadn't interfered with the Dothraki's after-conquest fun that dude wouldn't have scratched Drogo, gotten the wound infected and gotten the witch to poison him. Obviously stopping rape can't be considered a bad thing but she is still responsible for that chain of events and I have no issue with saying she's at fault for the rest of it. Her child dying was absolutely her fault, again trusting the witch and not bothering to read the fine print. Her people dying/abandoning her was absolutely her fault, see above. And while in those days it was more proportional- she fucked up she had to take lumps (even if she wasn't killed or disfigured), later seasons have nothing but aces for her, even when she's losing. Yes, she is a flawed character. But one of the most common attributes of the Mary Sue is that the flaws never seem to matter. Stannis was flawed in being too rigid and he directly paid for it. Ned Stark was flawed in being honorable and he directly paid for it. Robb Stark was flawed in being too idealistic and refusing to listen to the lay of the land and he directly paid for it. Now tell me how Daenerys paid for her flaws.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 15:05:24 GMT
Eh. I don't hate her. I do think they're laying it on too thick with her being the Chosen One though. Plus she makes some really stupid decisions in Meereen and a lot of her victories are handed to her while she never experiences the fallout or cost of these things as every other character does. In a show where nobility, strength, cunning, ruthlessness and pretty much every other characteristic under the sun still gets stomped because "shit happens", her being elevated like this feels jarring and forced. I guess folks forget the first season. And the second season. Losing her homeland, being raped, sold, spat on by her brother, her husband dies, her child dies, she loses her people, almost dies in a desert... am I missing anything? Oh, her dragon eats people. And? Any other character would've been brutally dismembered and likely literally shat on after only one, possibly two of those blunders. And yes I call them blunders because they were directly her fault. Not the rape or being sold, obviously. But the moment she gained agency, she started fucking up. Drogo dying, her fault, her child dying, her fault, her people dying/leaving, her fault. Her direct victories are dragon ex machinas, except maybe for Astapor, which was still dragon ex machina but at least it was her cleverly implementing it. After that it was her vassals that handed her her other victories and suffered for her mistakes (mostly in Meereen). Besides, two seasons out of six still make it the minority here. But yeah, I can't think of another character that's fucked up so much and is not only still alive but thrived because plot. Sansa maybe, but since she was the show's chew toy for the majority of the run, I wouldn't exactly call it thriving. Point is, Daenerys' redeeming qualities are (mostly) not being a bitch, or rather being less of a bitch than a good deal of other characters on the show, and being pretty. I'm fine with that, but I'm not overly impressed. Certainly not as impressed as the show wants me to be.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 14:35:19 GMT
I also don't get the hate for Daenerys. Eh. I don't hate her. I do think they're laying it on too thick with her being the Chosen One though. Plus she makes some really stupid decisions in Meereen and a lot of her victories are handed to her while she never experiences the fallout or cost of these things as every other character does. In a show where nobility, strength, cunning, ruthlessness and pretty much every other characteristic under the sun still gets stomped because "shit happens", her being elevated like this feels jarring and forced.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 22, 2017 14:05:09 GMT
You can do some damage with dragons but you cannot conquer a country nor hold it with them. Uhm, loreheads back me up here, but isn't this exactly what the original Targaeryans did? At least the initial conquering part. I'm sure they picked up people along the way. Also, you wanna talk wasting troops? Also, everyone hates the Mad Bitch but has reason to at least be amenable to Dany. The Tyrells and Martells want revenge with the latter being loyalists all along (although who knows if that's true of the show bitches), Littlefinger isn't dumb enough to fight when he's not absolutely sure of victory and the North cares more about the White Walkers. As should everyone. The only possible exception is Euron Greyjoy I guess. Ol' Mr. Build-me-a-thousand-ships on a treeless rock. But he's wacko so... Logically the Mad Bitch should fall immediately and then Daenerys should be made aware of the White Walker problem. They'll probably find a way to screw this up though and throw in some bullshit for the sake of drama. But that aside, I don't see how she can lose at this point. Especially with the hardon the writers seem to have for her. Unless the North goes full retard secessionist again, nobody we care about has any reason to fight her.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 20, 2017 19:40:18 GMT
well, this game is all about grinding... Also can love bloom on a battlefield?
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 20, 2017 15:49:19 GMT
^Better than Rogue 1
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 20, 2017 13:27:55 GMT
Removed a few posts that had devolved into bickering and personal attacks. A reminder to please stay away from that. Though I'm happy to recognize that the rest of the thread did stay away from it and remained on-topic. Thank you
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 20, 2017 1:04:04 GMT
Yeah... I'm kinda hoping nothing of the sort is in this game. You vanguards are out of control as it is. PFFFT and as it was pointed out both charge and nova are there already...gimmie the largest shotgun with a single slug shot fire mode in the game and I am gonna vanguard the fuck out of this game *sigh* Well then, may it be as hilariously buggy off host as that proud tradition indicates.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 19, 2017 19:31:12 GMT
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 19, 2017 19:28:20 GMT
Charge, nova, shockwave....yeah Yeah... I'm kinda hoping nothing of the sort is in this game. You vanguards are out of control as it is.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 19, 2017 19:03:27 GMT
Sorry for undue NorthAmericanism.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 19, 2017 17:27:13 GMT
^ We will be watching for that last part and will cleanup as necessary.
In the meantime, I'm reminded of this for some reason:
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Post by CrutchCricket on Jun 19, 2017 17:14:03 GMT
Time for this thread to embrace the Darkness
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