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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 5:47:11 GMT
I can't get past Gil's baby mama drama, so I just romanced Reyes. lol
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 5:33:13 GMT
Thanks a million! I love that his call sign was Anubis aka a god of the literal underworld Any time! I hope that he shows up more now that I finished his romance/questline Question: does anyone know what Lexi or Sam says about the romance? I don't know what's happening, but I never spoke to the crew when I went back to the Tempest, so they're all in "wow Kadara" mode. Are they the only Tempest crew mates to comment? SAM wants to talk to you about how love starts. He says it's interesting to him because he only experienced Alec's love for your mom once it was already at the end. With Lexi, you have to choose the emotional friends/family option during a late stage conversation with her about why you're doing all this. It's something like you saying, "I'm doing it for my friends, family...", and she'll say your LIs name after you trail off, including Reyes. He's the only off ship romance that gets that line, I think?
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 5:27:36 GMT
Alistair is the only KISA I've liked so far, but I'm actually not really romantically interested in him. He's one of my favorite characters and I always make him king alone, but I like him more in a platonic sense. I like Zevran as an LI, even though it really pisses me off that they wrote him to say he likes women more. It annoys me, because without that one line, he's actually pretty committed to you in his own weird way. Probably more than most Bioware m/m relationships. He even has multiple times where he mentions being with guys, which is super rare for a bi male LI. So disappointing.
My canon Warden is my only hetero character, though. I do the Morrigan romance because the god baby plot is good drama. I feel like her romance plot is the best one of the whole DA series. It just keeps going. She never stops being relevant. Only Leliana is really on par, imo, but I like Morrigan more.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 5:11:40 GMT
I'm gonna have to side with "none of the above", but I would like a big helping of "Reyes in party" added instead.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 4:57:31 GMT
I think the actual number of people that play m/m romances is probably substantially lower than BSN polls, but probably higher than what some people expect, because a lot of girls play them and some people just do a bunch of the romances in different play throughs.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 4:51:59 GMT
Sure, it could be Jill's personal opinion and not actually a facet of the Initiative, itself. That's totally possible. My impression was that the argument you were making about population numbers a few pages ago implied that you thought it was inherent to the Initiative. If not, then we've been arguing on a misunderstanding. lol Someone rightfully pointed out it was the Nexus that lost the population (not the Ark) so I dropped that pretty quickly. Fair enough, then. lol
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 4:47:30 GMT
Again, that was just conjecture on our part. In no time in the game does the initiative actually pressure anyone to breed. This was stated only via Jill who may or may not have her own agenda. Sure, it could be Jill's personal opinion and not actually a facet of the Initiative, itself. That's totally possible. My impression was that the argument you were making about population numbers a few pages ago implied that you thought it was inherent to the Initiative. If not, then we've been arguing on a misunderstanding.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 4:41:03 GMT
It's my opinion that only representing pressure to procreate in one romance is incredibly inconsistent world building and that it is bad writing. It's your opinion that it's not. Saying "I don't think so, so you can't keep saying it" is just asserting your opinion as fact. K tone down on the drama. This isn't a reproduction simulator. They addressed the procreation during colonization with Gil. You wanted them to present this situation with other people. Here's a question. Why don't we deal with religion vs science with people other than Suvi? Is that inconsistent world building too? This particular issue is just sensitive to you and you're inflating the situation to justify your own distaste as "bad writing". That's a totally different situation. Suvi is religious and she likes to talk about her faith. You can talk about faith with Vedaria and a couple other people. Nobody in game pressures you to be religious as an over-arcing aspect of the Initiative. There's no indication that the Initiative pushes religion. If you're meant to have babies with Gil because the Initiative, itself, is pressuring everyone to breed, then it needs to be shown throughout the world. It needs to be a major aspect of the culture within the Initiative. If Suvi's religious plot was tied to the Initiative being a fanatically religious group that was pushing everyone to be religious, then it should be obvious in other ways, but that's not the situation. Suvi's beliefs are just her beliefs. It's like saying should everyone have to talk about Asari all the time because Cora does, or like cars, since Liam does. The difference is that's Suvi's personal beliefs, but Gil's plot supposedly relies on on an aspect of the Initiative itself that isn't present in any other aspect of the game. Basically, if you assert something is true about the culture of an entire group, that has to be consistent. If the Angara value their family structures, it has to be shown throughout their representation. If the Initiative is pressuring all colonists to breed, that has to be shown throughout their representation. If one character has a particular belief not associated with the greater population they're associated with, then that's just personal and doesn't need to be represented with everyone. This seems like it should be obvious, tbh.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 4:27:06 GMT
Your opinion, not objective fact. Sorry. lol where's the opinion? A character can be hated for acting in a manner that people dislike, but that doesn't mean that character is badly written. That would imply that the only likable characters are well-written. How is that sensible? Also it's pretty standard narrative practice to not repeat the same topic multiple times in the same story. It's my opinion that only representing pressure to procreate in one romance is incredibly inconsistent world building and that it is bad writing. It's your opinion that it's not. Saying "I don't think so, so you can't keep saying it" is just asserting your opinion as fact. I don't agree with you. You are free to your opinion, but that's all it is. I think it makes no sense for this to only exist for one couple. Either there's pressure for all the human colonists to breed or there isn't. It's really that simple, to me. It's a part of the world, or it's not. It would be like Jaal saying family is very important to the Angara and having every other Angara you meet totally contradict that idea. It would be like Garrus saying the Turians have a militaristic culture and then only ever meeting domestic or agriculturally inclined Turians. Either it's a part of their culture or it's not, but to assert it and then not represent it throughout the world is, imo, inconsistent, bad writing. Same with there being pressure for colonists to breed. If it's a big part of the culture within the Initiative, then it needs to be shown in many ways. Just saying they want to do different things with different characters doesn't work for me. Different characters have different motivations and goals, but they should all exist within the same context of a consistent world. The world should be the same around them, only their own beliefs and actions should change. You can't have one character existing in a world that's entirely different than another character. To me, that's the definition of inconsistent writing.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 4:12:55 GMT
Important to note that hating a character does not make the character badly written. Also, they will not approach the same topic more than once in the same story. Using the "why him but not others" argument does not fly. Stop using it. Your opinion, not objective fact. Sorry.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 4:08:57 GMT
The use of stereotypes does kind of bring us back to this whole thing being blamed on the execution. And also bring us back to the whole thing of nothing ever being good enough: If HOMOSEXUAL_MALE_CHARACTER wants to form a family: If HOMOSEXUAL_MALE_CHARACTER does not want to form a family:
They literally can't win. This is so obviously true about literally every character and romance that it isn't even worth stating. Some people will always wish they'd written characters differently. Of course they can't make everyone happy. It's just a cop out when it's obvious most people aren't happy with how they're handling a specific plotline. It's not hard to see the majority of people aren't thrilled with how Jill's inclusion in the plot was handled. The vast majority of people I've seen that love Gil still hate Jill. They can't make everyone happy, but they can consider feedback when something falls flat with the majority of the intended audience. To say it's just whether or not gay families are represented is ignoring the bulk of the complaints. A lot of people here are saying they'd be fine with a baby plot if it was handled differently. The pressure isolated in this one romance is incredibly inconsistent in the world which, yes, is bad writing. Nobody else gets this pressure to breed, even though many other romances just as clearly shirk breeding responsibilities. Not even other gay men that choose to romance Reyes, a male exile and merc leader of all things, have to hear about babies. It's not actually a feature of the world, which is why it's jarring. On top of that, many people that would like to have a baby with their partner don't want to have a third party they barely know involved. It's an unrealistic situation. What gay man would agree to co-parent with a woman they'd met once just because she was friends with a guy he'd been dating less than a year? I think the reaction would have been totally different if this was a decision just between Gil and Scott after building a strong bond between them. I know my reaction would be different. The problem most people have with the plot isn't that they're introducing gay families or allowing you to decide if you want to be part of one, it's how they handled the set up for that. I, for one, was actually really excited about the idea before I saw how it played out.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 3:56:38 GMT
I feel like with Reyes it's probably something totally innocuous, like he was a low level shuttle pilot/engineer, or it's something extreme on the other end of the spectrum, like we'll find out he's still lying and he was the original Shadow Broker turned mysterious Benefactor all along. lol
I wonder what his deal with Kian is, though. The codex and in-game stuff in the Tartarus reference their relationship. I saw the data pad in the Tartarus saying they had a deal for Reyes to use that room upstairs. I think the teminal in the room? makes it seem like they're also close. It talks about them getting drinks together and stuff.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 3:41:33 GMT
But I keep checking in with the crew, expecting them to comment on the relationship at some point. Does that not happen until late in the game? Lexi will mention it and SAM does. I think besides that, only the squad members that stand around Kadara do. It's all the squad members except Peebee. You can talk to them on Kadara after the last scene with Reyes and they'll all comment about your relationship.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 3:33:21 GMT
The "but we need parents" thing is a bit pointless in this context, anyway. Scott is a pretty bad candidate at this point, to be honest. His responsibilities as Pathfinder will make it extremely difficult for him to be a parent at this point in his life. The twenty-two year old Pathfinder is just not the prime candidate for settling down and having a baby, by any measure. What you're doing as Pathfinder is more important than adding a couple more children to the count. You're making whole planets viable for colonization. Some highly skilled people are offering something arguably more important to the colonization effort than children and trying to juggle a family with that work is more likely to half-ass both. That's the reality, if we're really being blatantly honest and separating enjoyable storytelling from srs real world responsibilities.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 3:22:59 GMT
they brought dna samples from the milky way to ensure healthy variety in the population. It was mentioned during a side quest where you are trying to save a pregnant woman. There's is no excuse for the way this romance was written. Then this settles it. There is no need for gay men to procreate. Jill claiming otherwise means that she's stupid and/or abusive, or her writer is not aware of the genetic banks or trying too hard to include her into Gil's story. The writer definitely knew, because they talk about her getting sperm from the banks, from like a famous physicist or something. That's the result if you romance Gil and don't have the baby with him.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 3:17:18 GMT
But that's actually not presented in any other way. Nobody else in the game is pressured to reproduce. Not lesbians, not people that hook up with aliens, not people that show no romantic inclinations at all. Only gay men have a "pressure to breed" plot. In fact, the only other context for breeding we see at all in game is Dr. Kennedy fleeing the Nexus because they wouldn't let her have a baby. Your other post had the same "why me not them" mentality. That's not how it works. They aren't going to do the same plot with two characters. Each one of them has their own thing. They explore the relationship between science and faith with Suvi for example. They could have switched Gil and Suvi if they wanted to. We'd then have people writing about how they feel they're being forced into religion with lesbians getting the better treatment. I don't agree with this. If the colonies were pressuring everyone to breed, it would be different. They didn't communicate that at all, which is just poor writing, at best. It doesn't make sense to single out one relationship and not have it present in any other if it's meant to be a general tone of the world. It's inconsistent. Either everyone is pressured to breed or they're not. And they're not.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 3:12:31 GMT
I get it but then that becomes an adoption issue not one about procreating. Yeah, and that's the whole point of the decision, it's about long term commitment, it's about Gil wanting purpose an deciding to settle down, form a family and be a parent. I really don't understand why people got stuck in the technicalities of making the baby, that's completely irrelevant. There's a difference between wanting to have a baby and caving to pressure to have a baby and there's a difference between having a baby with your partner and sharing it with a third party you barely know, that's why it's not irrelevant to a lot of people.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 3:05:31 GMT
The problem is more of that there wasn't enough resource to sustain population, rather than not enough population to sustain itself. If tje resource is enough, 20k population would do just fine. There's no need for gay people to participate. What you view as "no need" is viewed differently by someone whose entire job is to ensure the viability of the population especially when there aren't enough resources as you specified. To her, if you aren't contributing, you're not fulfilling expectations. You cannot fault her for thinking that way. The issue presented is that people who are sent to colonize are expected to reproduce, irrespective of their sexual orientation. You can disagree with that sentiment, and if you're in a relationship with Gil, can influence events appropriately. But that's actually not presented in any other way. Nobody else in the game is pressured to reproduce. Not lesbians, not people that hook up with aliens, not people that show no romantic inclinations at all. Only gay men have a "pressure to breed" plot. In fact, the only other context for breeding we see at all in game is Dr. Kennedy fleeing the Nexus because they wouldn't let her have a baby.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 3:01:03 GMT
I guess. Suppose it's just unfortunate these opinions are only expressed to gay guys. Not people that just dont want children. Not to lesbians. I mean they've got sperm banks, wouldnt her biggest problem be women that dont want to get pregnant? Wait, they have sperm banks? If that's the case, why would they even need gays to help repopulate lol? The limiting factor in this case is rather women. If you don't have the baby with Gil, Jill goes to a sperm bank to have one.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 2:54:12 GMT
I don't like the idea that it "makes sense" to push the breeding pressure on gay men, specifically, when the game also has lesbian LIs and LIs that aren't humans at all. If anything, it's more important that women are reproducing than men, since men can more easily just donate sperm anonymously while it's limited how many children can be carried at a time. Why don't they put that plot on women? Why don't they mention that alien relationships don't end in reproduction for any sexuality? It doesn't make sense to only put that on gay men.
I also think it's just more important to write plots real people will actually enjoy than to preach at the player about their life choices. They have to know most people don't want those plots, which is why they're not preaching to women about their responsibility to reproduce and why there isn't in-game social stigma for people that take the alien romances.
I feel like the writer was actually probably just tone deaf and didn't mean for the pressure to be serious. They should have written Jill as a less abrasive, less focal character and just done something like have her pregnant at the time we meet and have that as a gateway for Gil to express how he'd like to have kids someday with Scott, not because Jill is pressuring him to, but just because he likes kids and wants to be a dad. I mean, how hard is that? Then Jill could volunteer to carry the baby for them just as a normal surrogate without it being this huge, looming feature of the relationship.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 2:40:50 GMT
It is pretty weird that people can travel across dark space in cryo pods, but they haven't figured out modern mobile messaging devices yet. lol
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 2:25:06 GMT
indrexu but I'm not talking about "this game". ME:A can reference itself - it should do it. But we were talking about future games. How will they reference Ryder's memories if this is completely optional? How will Ryder know about spoiler being still alive? How will X thing affect future games, because it should be pretty large? I mean, those things still exist in the world, whether or not Ryder found out about them yet. Especially the Benefactor situation, I doubt it just won't play out because you might not know about it. The information from memories is already really vague. It doesn't seem necessary to proceed with the plot. It's also possible that a certain person or group we've already met has already been planned to be the Benefactor, or working for them, in which case you'd just find threads to that. Some people guess it's Tann, for example, or that Tann is working with them. You'd probably just find threads that show that the other seven in line died in similar circumstances to Garson, or something like that. Or, say if Reyes and the Collective were working for the Benefactor and that's how they get all these resources the people at the base couldn't figure out how they could afford. That's something that could be unraveled back to the Benefactor. There are plenty of strings that could lead to the Benefactor just based on shady hints that they got where they are by sketchy means, or they have more resources than they should have. And they could also just introduce new threads like that. Jien Garson's death always sounded shady, even without the extra info. It'll probably be something like that, where knowing there was a Benefactor through the memories isn't important once you get the questline that actually leads you to them. Some vague curiosity will end up being a bigger deal than we thought and that will reveal the bigger shadow figure behind the events. That's just my impression, anyway.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 2:01:22 GMT
My Scott Ryder is gay and he's with Reyes.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 1:54:11 GMT
Did you get the line from Jaal in Kadara where he asks if Reyes is your type and says Cora told him you like bad boys? lol
After Reyes does his thing in the Roekkar base and then Ryder does the fancy little combat roll that they only do in that one particular moment, I was like, awwww, Ryder is trying to impress him. Haha. I haven't! Is it a squad thing or a hub thing? It's a hub thing in Kadara. You just have to talk to Jaal in the throne room in Kadara Port when you're stopped there. Everyone has a line about you and Reyes after you get the last scene if you talk to them in Kadara.
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Post by caladrius on Apr 1, 2017 1:43:30 GMT
Hahaha. Well, SAM feels what we feel. Exactly, especially since it looks like Sloane's picture was caught at a weird time. SAM's totally biased lol... Vetra asked if there's something going on between my Ryder and Reyes, NGL I blushed in real life- they're so cute together. I can see why other people were so quick to jump on the Reyes train. It's super well written. Especially when he walks in with insane swagger into the Roekkar base. Did you get the line from Jaal in Kadara where he asks if Reyes is your type and says Cora told him you like bad boys? lol
After Reyes does his thing in the Roekkar base and then Ryder does the fancy little combat roll that they only do in that one particular moment, I was like, awwww, Ryder is trying to impress him. Haha.
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