Invellous
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Post by Invellous on May 29, 2017 21:30:42 GMT
The level of toxicity in this thread is overwhelming, though that should be no surprise given this site was birthed from the community of an equally toxic site. It never ceases to amaze me how many gamers rather tear the works of those who are their source of entertainment to shreds so readily. It is truly baffling, though perhaps not so much so, even I am guilty of it at times when frustrated with a particular title, so maybe I have no room to talk.
I added my two cents once already though to no avail, so I will add another two. Again I would state, quite adamantly in fact, that none of the mentioned games, namely The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, Mass Effect: Andromeda, or The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim, 'suck' in my opinion. Do they have their flaws? Absolutely, as does everything single thing upon this planet is and will be in the future. Is it because of the 'fact', a word I use loosely here, that one or the other copy one another? No, not in the least. They all stand by their own merits. Interestingly enough most of the mentioned issues present in any one of these titles are found in all three of them which has more to do with the sand box experience rather than developer competence.
Take story presentation for example. Each of three are set in a open world, or for the sake over argument, semi-open world, even Skyrim can not boast a true fully open world as many locals are 'instanced' off, walled off by loading screens because the interior is not apart of the 'open world' but is a separate 'cell' that is not attached to the world. Because the player is free to explore as they choose it is far more difficult if not down right impossible to present a story or experience in the same fashion as a more linear experience such as say The Last of Us or older titles in the Mass Effect original trilogy and or the older Witcher titles. The player chooses the pacing of the story and thus is responsible for how and when they experience it. If a player sticks to the main quest and treats it with the presented urgency that the narrative tries to imply then it will be a better, 'cleaner' experience, but if you, the player decided to hit every side quest and loot every OPTIONAL loot spot then your experience will be jarring and you will that disconnection from the story. You are in essence writing the story of your character, whether it be the Dragonborn, Geralt of Rivia, or Pathfinder Ryder, you decide what they do, not the other way around. With this in mind I think players should take as much ownership and responsibility for the story presented and how they experience it as much as the writers.
Now let us look at the worlds themselves and their 'filler' as some have called it, all of which are optional and present in each title. I will agree that the Witcher 3: Wild Hunt does have an over abundance of Guarded Treasure, Lost Treasure, and Bandit Camp spots that offer little to the overall narrative. It weighs down the game though not in nearly a meaningful a way as some would claim, again in my opinion. Yet, this dilemma is seen in Skyrim as well with it's plethora of arguably pointless caves, forts, ruins, all that serve the same purpose as the locals in the Witcher 3, a source of coin and loot, nothing more. Sure there are books, journals, letters, and other such 'lore' or 'flavor' bits but they all add nothing meaningful to the story. Andromeda does it worse, rather than simply having you get the experience over quickly as in the Witcher 3 or give you a place to explore like in Skyrim you find a datapad, go to several spots, kill some randomly spawned enemies that lead to a anti-climatic and meaningless end with a small sum of experience given for your time. All of the above are examples of fillers present in titles with years apart between their release and development. Is it a product of them copying Skyrim or is it more a product of the type of experience? The latter makes far more sense.
That might have read as a bit 'rambly' and maybe it was. The point is, each of these games having mirroring issues, all a product of the type of game and are present in any titles that shares a similar design. You want the story to feel important and that sense of urgency, then treat as such and with urgency. There is only so much that the developers and writers can do for you without holding your hand. Optional content is optional, if you choose to stop for it then that is on you. Yes it is filler, a unfortunate byproduct of an open world or as said before a semi-open world experience that adds content however meaningless between the main quest, side quests, and other activities the make a world feel more alive. Were it not there people would in turn gripe about there being nothing.
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Post by simtam on May 29, 2017 21:59:41 GMT
Where is the lore integrated into the design? What are the reasons for things being where they are or why they are that way? The Witcher franchise has never been particularly good with that. Things are thatvway because "it's how dark fantasy looks!" Or "we need gamey things here!". A true living world is one where you don't even have to shave off the fantasy elements to make it feel like it can beva real place. The Witcher never gets beyond being a game world. Tamriel and Thedas stomp those games into submission in world design. Sure, now you finally understand how your previous post makes no sense. And does lore makes that unrealistic and contradictory world more believable? Really? You feel how living there could be real because of lore!? There is a palace in Skyrim called Dragonsreach which is build to capture Dragon called Numinex. This Dragon breads fire, and Dragonsreach is made of wood??? Also there is lore which talks about this Dragon, and there is also skull of this Dragon displayed above the Jarl's throne. There are also people who teach Dragons language, the Greybeards. And yet people of Skyrim think Dragons are myth?? I can give you many more contradictions from this game, and i did in my previous posts. Lore, design, Bethesda!? It's a joke! Yawn... It's not the first attack on Skyrim in this thread that has little grounds in the actual game and logic. I wish you would focus on pointing out what's good in the Witcher, instead. Though I doubt you would do a superb job with that, too. I recall an in-depth discussion about world design in Skyrim and TW3, but can't find the link. The gist was that in TW3 locations that are close to each other are often related to one another in some way, while those in Skyrim could be rearranged randomly within same hold with no noticeable difference. This of course might be the result of Skyrim mapping a roughly 1000 km long country in a 5x3km "playa", while areas in TW3 like the White Orchard can represent a smaller scale fragment of the fictional universe.
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Post by wolfsite on May 29, 2017 22:07:38 GMT
The level of toxicity in this thread is overwhelming, though that should be no surprise given this site was birthed from the community of an equally toxic site. Welcome to the BSN.
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Post by Serza on May 29, 2017 22:10:57 GMT
Toxic?
Eh, somewhat tame as BSN goes.
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Post by Kabraxal on May 29, 2017 22:14:04 GMT
You mean a myth in that they merely thought them extinct? My previous post makes perfect sense and illustrates how you don't understand proper world design. Looking "real" is not good deaign. Looking and feeling the weight of history simply by looking around the map... that is great design and something TW has always failed at. They design game worlds, not fully realised worlds that live, breath, and shows the scars of its past. The reason why Bethesda games are designed the way they are is laziness. Especially Skyrim and Fallout 4. And what history and lore if it doesn't make sense, it's full of contradictions. Bethesda designs worlds full of repetitive content filled with mediocrity. That's the laziest way to create a game. Witcher is not a game with hundreds of dungeons and little stories which you must read, and never was. So how can it fail at that? Btw, i understand design much better then you. I work with textures and meshes, and tolls like 3ds Max, Photoshop, etc. I'm designer. Uh... that last unbelievable bit proves you don't understand how to design a world. We're not talking about simple textures or meshes, we are talking about actual use of lore, history, culture and all the things that influence the physical look of a world and designing a world with depth. But you'll continue bleating on about how the TW3 is so magnificent despite it filling its world with far more repetitive mediocrity than any Bethesda game since Daggerfall. We get it, TW3 is your gaming god. To a lot of us, it is mediocre crap wishing to reach the heights of Bethesda or Bioware games.
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Origin: Invellous
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Post by Invellous on May 29, 2017 22:22:36 GMT
The reason why Bethesda games are designed the way they are is laziness. Especially Skyrim and Fallout 4. And what history and lore if it doesn't make sense, it's full of contradictions. Bethesda designs worlds full of repetitive content filled with mediocrity. That's the laziest way to create a game. Witcher is not a game with hundreds of dungeons and little stories which you must read, and never was. So how can it fail at that? Btw, i understand design much better then you. I work with textures and meshes, and tolls like 3ds Max, Photoshop, etc. I'm designer. Uh... that last unbelievable bit proves you don't understand how to design a world. We're not talking about simple textures or meshes, we are talking about actual use of lore, history, culture and all the things that influence the physical look of a world and designing a world with depth. But you'll continue bleating on about how the TW3 is so magnificent despite it filling its world with far more repetitive mediocrity than any Bethesda game since Daggerfall. We get it, TW3 is your gaming god. To a lot of us, it is mediocre crap wishing to reach the heights of Bethesda or Bioware games. I would disagree that the world in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt is as horrible as you say. It boasts some amazing vista that make excellent use of the weather and lighting systems, even on a system like mine that is far from the best. Repetitive, in some regards, depends on what you are referring to. Regardless, it feels much more lush and alive than Skyrim did / does. That side, I will not say that is because of Bethesda being lazy or incompetent, in fact I would wholeheartedly disagree with any such a claim. Though they are notorious for deferring to the modding community to fix bugs and glitches in their games, that no one can deny. I have no doubt Bethesda could release similar quality with today's technology. If I had to take a wild guess it would be that the sheer size of the world, the one your traverse, is the cause of it.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 29, 2017 22:24:45 GMT
I don't see what's so bad about Fallout 4's world design. I actually really love the layouts and such, and I adore Diamond City.
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Post by Ancient on May 29, 2017 22:43:01 GMT
The reason why Bethesda games are designed the way they are is laziness. Especially Skyrim and Fallout 4. And what history and lore if it doesn't make sense, it's full of contradictions. Bethesda designs worlds full of repetitive content filled with mediocrity. That's the laziest way to create a game. Witcher is not a game with hundreds of dungeons and little stories which you must read, and never was. So how can it fail at that? Btw, i understand design much better then you. I work with textures and meshes, and tolls like 3ds Max, Photoshop, etc. I'm designer. Uh... that last unbelievable bit proves you don't understand how to design a world. We're not talking about simple textures or meshes, we are talking about actual use of lore, history, culture and all the things that influence the physical look of a world and designing a world with depth. But you'll continue bleating on about how the TW3 is so magnificent despite it filling its world with far more repetitive mediocrity than any Bethesda game since Daggerfall. We get it, TW3 is your gaming god. To a lot of us, it is mediocre crap wishing to reach the heights of Bethesda or Bioware games. TW3 filled with repetitive mediocrity!? You are worse then OP.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on May 30, 2017 1:09:06 GMT
Where is the lore integrated into the design? What are the reasons for things being where they are or why they are that way? The Witcher franchise has never been particularly good with that. Things are thatvway because "it's how dark fantasy looks!" Or "we need gamey things here!". A true living world is one where you don't even have to shave off the fantasy elements to make it feel like it can beva real place. The Witcher never gets beyond being a game world. Tamriel and Thedas stomp those games into submission in world design. Sure, now you finally understand how your previous post makes no sense. And does lore makes that unrealistic and contradictory world more believable? Really? You feel how living there could be real because of lore!? There is a palace in Skyrim called Dragonsreach which is build to capture Dragon called Numinex. This Dragon breads fire, and Dragonsreach is made of wood??? Also there is lore which talks about this Dragon, and there is also skull of this Dragon displayed above the Jarl's throne. There are also people who teach Dragons language, the Greybeards. And yet people of Skyrim think Dragons are myth?? I can give you many more contradictions from this game, and i did in my previous posts. Lore, design, Bethesda!? It's a joke! A few things to keep in mind: 1. No guarantee Numinex breathed fire. A lot of them don't breathe fire at all. 2. Olaf caught Numinex in a time period where many of Skyrim's inhabitants could themselves wield the power of the Thu'um. Even if he could breathe fire, it could easily be neutralized by the shouts of others. 3. Dragons are survivalists (except for Alduin's fanatics). Odahviing doesn't struggle for very long when he realizes he's in a bad situation. He happily submits to the Dragonborn because he knows it gives him the best chance of survival against the overbearing might of the Nine Divines' champion. Numinex spent his time in Dragonsreach as a captive, possibly for similar reasons. Him losing control might be why he's dead. 4. Very few people believe the dragons are mythical creatures. Most of them thought they were extinct though. But TES lore can be subtle. They allow - and sometimes obligate - a player to read between the lines to reach their own conclusions. That's also pretty much the entire point of Morrowind's story.
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Post by colfoley on May 30, 2017 1:17:17 GMT
Uh... that last unbelievable bit proves you don't understand how to design a world. We're not talking about simple textures or meshes, we are talking about actual use of lore, history, culture and all the things that influence the physical look of a world and designing a world with depth. But you'll continue bleating on about how the TW3 is so magnificent despite it filling its world with far more repetitive mediocrity than any Bethesda game since Daggerfall. We get it, TW3 is your gaming god. To a lot of us, it is mediocre crap wishing to reach the heights of Bethesda or Bioware games. TW3 filled with repetitive mediocrity!? You are worse then OP. well there was the question marks.
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Post by Kabraxal on May 30, 2017 1:59:57 GMT
Uh... that last unbelievable bit proves you don't understand how to design a world. We're not talking about simple textures or meshes, we are talking about actual use of lore, history, culture and all the things that influence the physical look of a world and designing a world with depth. But you'll continue bleating on about how the TW3 is so magnificent despite it filling its world with far more repetitive mediocrity than any Bethesda game since Daggerfall. We get it, TW3 is your gaming god. To a lot of us, it is mediocre crap wishing to reach the heights of Bethesda or Bioware games. TW3 filled with repetitive mediocrity!? You are worse then OP. Keep proving me right.... question marks, fomulaic main quest, hunt system that is the same thing over and over, NPCs say the same things over and over, all villages and villagers are reused assets, almost everything relies on witcher senses, and the constant "this sucks, that sucks, everything sucks" hamfisted moments rammed down the ganer's throat...... yup, totally not repetitive. At least pick something that isn't so easy to rip apart in TW3.
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Post by simtam on May 30, 2017 3:20:47 GMT
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Post by mugwump v1 on May 30, 2017 6:02:37 GMT
TW3 filled with repetitive mediocrity!? You are worse then OP. Keep proving me right.... question marks, fomulaic main quest, hunt system that is the same thing over and over, NPCs say the same things over and over, all villages and villagers are reused assets, almost everything relies on witcher senses, and the constant "this sucks, that sucks, everything sucks" hamfisted moments rammed down the ganer's throat...... yup, totally not repetitive. At least pick something that isn't so easy to rip apart in TW3. All of which would mean more if the quality and diversity of quests in TW3 didn't mark that game out to be something very special Kabraxal.
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Post by Kabraxal on May 30, 2017 6:16:36 GMT
Keep proving me right.... question marks, fomulaic main quest, hunt system that is the same thing over and over, NPCs say the same things over and over, all villages and villagers are reused assets, almost everything relies on witcher senses, and the constant "this sucks, that sucks, everything sucks" hamfisted moments rammed down the ganer's throat...... yup, totally not repetitive. At least pick something that isn't so easy to rip apart in TW3. All of which would mean more if the quality and diversity of quests in TW3 didn't mark that game out to be something very special Kabraxal. Except they didn't. Its good side quests were not more numerous or mind blowing as Bethesda or Bioware games. Hell, most of the quests bellowed by TW3 fans are actually not side quests, but part of the main quest.
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Post by mugwump v1 on May 30, 2017 6:59:53 GMT
All of which would mean more if the quality and diversity of quests in TW3 didn't mark that game out to be something very special Kabraxal. Except they didn't. Its good side quests were not more numerous or mind blowing as Bethesda or Bioware games. Hell, most of the quests bellowed by TW3 fans are actually not side quests, but part of the main quest. Yeah, that's simply not true Kabraxal. I mean, one need only spend an hour or two in White Orchard to understand that TW3 does things very differently from the above mentioned games. When I first played TW3, the first contract I took played out beautifully. After explaining that his daughter had become ill from drinking water contaminated by recent hostilities, I struck a deal with Odolan and made my way to an abandoned homestead, where I learned the tragic story of Clear and Volker, a young couple who petitioned to leave the service of their local lord and start new lives for themselves, only to have misfortune take them both. Now, I'll not go so far as to spoil that particular story for those who haven't played the game, but will say that the details of their sad tale only became clear after quizzing the local herbalist and hunter. I suggest you look it up. As for the mechanics of the quest itself, Geralt has to investigate the area in an attempt to piece together the identity and nature of the Devil by the Well and use his Beastiary to research how to dispatch it. The side quest ended for me by refusing Odolan's payment (it was money he had put aside for his daughters dowry). Absolutely wonderful stuff and a world apart from the type of ancillary quest content we usually see in other games.
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Post by Kabraxal on May 30, 2017 7:08:43 GMT
Except they didn't. Its good side quests were not more numerous or mind blowing as Bethesda or Bioware games. Hell, most of the quests bellowed by TW3 fans are actually not side quests, but part of the main quest. Yeah, that's simply not true Kabraxal. I mean, one need only spend an hour or two in White Orchard to understand that TW3 does thinks very differently from the above mentioned games. When I first played TW3, the first contract I took played out beautifully. After explaining that his daughter had become ill from drinking water contaminated by recent hostilities, I struck a deal with Odolan and made my way to an abandoned homestead, where I learned the tragic story of Clear and Volker, a young couple who petitioned to leave the service of their local lord and start new lives for themselves, before misfortune took them both. Now, I'll not go so far as to spoil that particular story for those who haven't played the game, but will say that the details of their sad tale only became clear after quizzing the local herbalist and hunter. I suggest you look it up. As for the mechanics of the quest itself, Geralt has to investigate the area in an attempt piece together the identity and nature of the Devil by the Well and use his Beastiary to research how best to dispatch it. The quest ended for me by refusing Odolan's payment (it was money he had put aside for his daughters dowry). Absolutely wonderful stuff and a world apart from the type of ancillary quest content we usually see in other games. Feel free to feel that way. It didn't feel that way to me. It is not objective fact that TW3 did it better. In fact, I found most of the wuests dull and typical, made worse by the game's reliance on awful dark fantasy tropes. Though I will applaud the Witcher drinking event. CDPR has it in them to possibly emulate Bioware, but TW as a franchise hasn't even come close to DA2's level... and that is considered the worst (pre Andromeda) by Bioware.
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Post by mugwump v1 on May 30, 2017 7:15:04 GMT
Yeah, that's simply not true Kabraxal. I mean, one need only spend an hour or two in White Orchard to understand that TW3 does things very differently from the above mentioned games. When I first played TW3, the first contract I took played out beautifully. After explaining that his daughter had become ill from drinking water contaminated by recent hostilities, I struck a deal with Odolan and made my way to an abandoned homestead, where I learned the tragic story of Clear and Volker, a young couple who petitioned to leave the service of their local lord and start new lives for themselves, only to have misfortune take them both. Now, I'll not go so far as to spoil that particular story for those who haven't played the game, but will say that the details of their sad tale only became clear after quizzing the local herbalist and hunter. I suggest you look it up. As for the mechanics of the quest itself, Geralt has to investigate the area in an attempt to piece together the identity and nature of the Devil by the Well and use his Beastiary to research how best to dispatch it. The side quest ended for me by refusing Odolan's payment (it was money he had put aside for his daughters dowry). Absolutely wonderful stuff and a world apart from the type of ancillary quest content we usually see in other games. Feel free to feel that way. It didn't feel that way to me. It is not objective fact that TW3 did it better. In fact, I found most of the wuests dull and typical, made worse by the game's reliance on awful dark fantasy tropes. Though I will applaud the Witcher drinking event. CDPR has it in them to possibly emulate Bioware, but TW as a franchise hasn't even come close to DA2's level... and that is considered the worst (pre Andromeda) by Bioware. That you found the tone of the game unpalatable to you does in no way validate many of the strange claims you make about it. As for DA2, I found it to be a vacuous turd! Different strokes eh?
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Post by Ancient on May 30, 2017 8:19:46 GMT
TW3 filled with repetitive mediocrity!? You are worse then OP. well there was the question marks. It is. I ask myself how can people write this nonsense?
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Post by Ancient on May 30, 2017 8:59:44 GMT
TW3 filled with repetitive mediocrity!? You are worse then OP. Keep proving me right.... question marks, fomulaic main quest, hunt system that is the same thing over and over, NPCs say the same things over and over, all villages and villagers are reused assets, almost everything relies on witcher senses, and the constant "this sucks, that sucks, everything sucks" hamfisted moments rammed down the ganer's throat...... yup, totally not repetitive. At least pick something that isn't so easy to rip apart in TW3. Actually you have the same problem like OP. Cognitive disorder. Let's use one very important elements of both games, crafting. In TW3 you must find necessary materials and schematics to make weapon or armor. Then you must take it to a Blacksmith which then creates what you need. In Skyrim you are this special snowflake who can easily create weapon and armor. You can become an expert blacksmith and craft legendary deadric weapons and dragon armor just by repetitively crafting novice-level items? On the other hand game tells you through other Blacksmiths how this is something that takes years to learn, etc. Or you can become Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold by playing pure melee character? I can continue with this nonsense. What a design!
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Post by Kabraxal on May 30, 2017 9:25:25 GMT
Keep proving me right.... question marks, fomulaic main quest, hunt system that is the same thing over and over, NPCs say the same things over and over, all villages and villagers are reused assets, almost everything relies on witcher senses, and the constant "this sucks, that sucks, everything sucks" hamfisted moments rammed down the ganer's throat...... yup, totally not repetitive. At least pick something that isn't so easy to rip apart in TW3. Actually you have the same problem like OP. Cognitive disorder. Let's use one very important elements of both games, crafting. In TW3 you must find necessary materials and schematics to make weapon or armor. Then you must take it to a Blacksmith which then creates what you need. In Skyrim you are this special snowflake who can easily create weapon and armor. You can become an expert blacksmith and craft legendary deadric weapons and dragon armor just by repetitively crafting novice-level items? On the other hand game tells you through other Blacksmiths how this is something that takes years to learn, etc. Or you can become Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold by playing pure melee character? I can continue with this nonsense. What a design! CDPR forums are that way. There you can spew your opinion as fact grabage as much as you like. I'm done arguing with TW fanatics on a forum for BIOWARE games.
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Post by voltangclan on May 30, 2017 9:32:47 GMT
There are no volus. There's your answer. This is not a coincidence. Hopefully this Clanless DLC corrects this issue.
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Post by colfoley on May 30, 2017 10:15:24 GMT
Keep proving me right.... question marks, fomulaic main quest, hunt system that is the same thing over and over, NPCs say the same things over and over, all villages and villagers are reused assets, almost everything relies on witcher senses, and the constant "this sucks, that sucks, everything sucks" hamfisted moments rammed down the ganer's throat...... yup, totally not repetitive. At least pick something that isn't so easy to rip apart in TW3. Actually you have the same problem like OP. Cognitive disorder. Let's use one very important elements of both games, crafting. In TW3 you must find necessary materials and schematics to make weapon or armor. Then you must take it to a Blacksmith which then creates what you need. In Skyrim you are this special snowflake who can easily create weapon and armor. You can become an expert blacksmith and craft legendary deadric weapons and dragon armor just by repetitively crafting novice-level items? On the other hand game tells you through other Blacksmiths how this is something that takes years to learn, etc. Or you can become Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold by playing pure melee character? I can continue with this nonsense. What a design! you can? The only way i know you being able to do that is by training...which costs money, is somewhat limited, and makes sense. Oh by reading books. Like how most people learn v in real life.
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simtam
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by simtam on May 30, 2017 12:10:16 GMT
Let's use one very important elements of both games, crafting. In TW3 you must find necessary materials and schematics to make weapon or armor. Then you must take it to a Blacksmith which then creates what you need. In Skyrim you are this special snowflake who can easily create weapon and armor. (...) Is the technical term 'demi-god'?
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I love nailing asari. So ageless and superior -- then you get them and they squeal like school girls
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Post by gplayer on May 30, 2017 12:40:51 GMT
I enjoyed TW3 but it has no replayability value for me..or the replayability is very low. I stopped playing it after a little over 200 hours. When I was playing MEA I definitely began to feel like it was witcher in space. I also stopped playing after 217 hours. On my third playthrough the story did not feel different at all to me.
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Post by Ancient on May 30, 2017 15:26:13 GMT
Actually you have the same problem like OP. Cognitive disorder. Let's use one very important elements of both games, crafting. In TW3 you must find necessary materials and schematics to make weapon or armor. Then you must take it to a Blacksmith which then creates what you need. In Skyrim you are this special snowflake who can easily create weapon and armor. You can become an expert blacksmith and craft legendary deadric weapons and dragon armor just by repetitively crafting novice-level items? On the other hand game tells you through other Blacksmiths how this is something that takes years to learn, etc. Or you can become Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold by playing pure melee character? I can continue with this nonsense. What a design! you can? The only way i know you being able to do that is by training...which costs money, is somewhat limited, and makes sense. Oh by reading books. Like how most people learn v in real life. You can enter College by persuading or by casting apprentice level spell. And that's it, from this point you can finish all related short quests, and suddenly you are Arch-Mage with no knowledge in magic?? What a design!
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