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Post by linksocarina on May 12, 2017 16:18:53 GMT
Except id say you're wrong about that. Especially considering how Sten reacts to a female warden, as stated in the rest of the previous post. No, quite clearly the Qun and how Sten was "raised" led him to be surprised at women in combat. That he was challenged in those beliefs doesn't negate that he had those beliefs in the first place. True, but that also raises another question, if we follow basic logic. If all Qunari soldiers are male, is that based on again, sex, or based on their ability? Iron Bull was planned to be a soldier, but it turns out hes better as an agent, a Beh-Hassrath, which is predominantly female-driven in Qunari society. So if Krem, let's say, was a Qunari, and was a soldier, in the eyes of the Qun doesn't that make him male? And through that, wouldn't Sten see them as male under the teachings of the Qun? This is what i'm getting at. It's not even about what Sten sees, he will always say soldiers must be male. He never says however, that "male" is a placeholder for physical biology. The women of Dragon Age Origins see themselves as women, not men. Krem sees himself as a man, not a woman. Therefore, wouldn't Sten see Krem as a man? This is not about trying to change someone's mind, of course. This is just offering a different perspective on the entire conversation. Ultimately as I said, it is a retcon in all likelihood, but it is one that still fits the philosophy, so I have no problem with it.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 12, 2017 16:20:22 GMT
Krem is quite clearly a female who wants to be a man. That isn't clear. Why should external genitalia trump neurotyping? (And if that's the rule you want, how do we handle ambiguous genitalia? I suppose we could go non-binary for those since we're not really doing strict gender roles anymore, but that couldn't work for the Qun.) Note that in contemporary usage, a transgender woman is a woman. You may not like that usage, but we're already there. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromosome
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Post by ama93 on May 12, 2017 16:21:36 GMT
I'm shocked people still, to this day, believe everything they see on the Internet. It's 2017, I thought people learned their lesson by now.
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Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2017 16:22:45 GMT
Krem is quite clearly a female who wants to be a man. And under the Qun, he would be male, no? This the whole sticking point of this discussion, the interpretation of how the Qun, a fantasy philosophy based on a rigid system of control and efficiency, would see someone like Krem. He is clearly apt at being a soldier, therefore under the Qun wouldn't he be male because his skills as a soldier belong with the Qunari army? The same can be said with a female Warden, Sten at first rebuffs the Warden, but comes to respect her (or not) later in the game, does Sten see the Wardens aptitude, the Wardens abilities in her job description, as the warden being male as a Aqun-Athlock? This is why even if it is a retcon (and it likely is) it's a retcon that fits into the philosophy of the Qunari. So it's fair, id say. Ultimately, That seems to be the issue. That, and us putting real-world spins on interpretation of gender identity into this. We should cut that part out though. Pretty much, except that I don't think aqun-athlok fits a female Warden. The problem is that a female Warden is mixing both male and female roles, whereas an aqua-athlok is male for all functions except breeding. (We don't know how they fit into the qunari breeding program; maybe they don't.) I'm still not convinced that this is a retcon; that convo was too good at not actually giving us any con to ret. But I'm not really invested in that aspect of the debate. It's unknowable without the devs chiming in, and in any event this version of the Qun is more interesting than the alternative of a garden-variety patriarchy.
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Post by alanc9 on May 12, 2017 16:24:52 GMT
That isn't clear. Why should external genitalia trump neurotyping? (And if that's the rule you want, how do we handle ambiguous genitalia? I suppose we could go non-binary for those since we're not really doing strict gender roles anymore, but that couldn't work for the Qun.) Note that in contemporary usage, a transgender woman is a woman. You may not like that usage, but we're already there. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChromosomeSame question, substituting "chromosomes" for "external genitalia."
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Post by sageoflife on May 12, 2017 16:32:23 GMT
Another day and still no non-Kotaku sources on this alleged "hiatus". Seems more and more likely that Kotaku decided to make much ado about nothing over Bioware's usual post-release practice and people jumped on the bandwagon.
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Post by foxhole on May 12, 2017 16:36:44 GMT
Bioware made comment about trivial problem, Hainly Abrams, and none about serious Kotaku article. I dont't think that this article is bogus.
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Post by smilesja on May 12, 2017 16:37:14 GMT
Another day and still no non-Kotaku sources on this alleged "hiatus". Seems more and more likely that Kotaku decided to make much ado about nothing over Bioware's usual post-release practice and people jumped on the bandwagon. This is what fake news does and we fell for it.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 12, 2017 16:38:00 GMT
Same question, substituting "chromosomes" for "external genitalia." Ok, so my question is what is "neurotyping". Never heard that term before and google is surprisingly not helpful. As for the other part of your question, when you substituete external genitalia with chromosomes it doesn't no longer makes sense. You'd have to specify what "ambigous chromosomes" supposedly are.
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linksocarina
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Post by linksocarina on May 12, 2017 16:38:05 GMT
True, but that also raises another question, if we follow basic logic. If all Qunari soldiers are male, is that based on again, sex, or based on their ability? Iron Bull was planned to be a soldier, but it turns out hes better as an agent, a Beh-Hassrath, which is predominantly female-driven in Qunari society. So if Krem, let's say, was a Qunari, and was a soldier, in the eyes of the Qun doesn't that make him male? And through that, wouldn't Sten see them as male under the teachings of the Qun? This is what i'm getting at. It's not even about what Sten sees, he will always say soldiers must be male. He never says however, that "male" is a placeholder for physical biology. The women of Dragon Age Origins see themselves as women, not men. Krem sees himself as a man, not a woman. Therefore, wouldn't Sten see Krem as a man? This is not about trying to change someone's mind, of course. This is just offering a different perspective on the entire conversation. Ultimately as I said, it is a retcon in all likelihood, but it is one that still fits the philosophy, so I have no problem with it. You do realize that this concept didn't exist during DA:O, right?...
But to go along with your hypothesis, why would Sten be confused if in his eyes: Soldier = Male? It's not like he had a deep conversation with the Warden about "gender identity". How would he know that the warden "saw herself as a woman"? Was she wearing pink only? Did he *gasp* "assume xir gender"?
No matter how I look at it, the whole thing makes very little sense. To me, this is clearly a writer bending the "reality" of the DA lore just so they could soapbox about "gender identity".
Yes I do, hence a retcon. But gender is not the same as sex. There is a difference outside of masculine/feminine sexual traits. It precludes societal roles and social structures, identity and so forth. Gender as that construct is often lumped into meaning biological sex only, but thats not the case. For example, I teach for a living as a college professor. Teaching however is considered a woman's job in a lot of countries, with ironically the exception of higher education, which is classically male dominated. In the real world, the use of gender as a stand-in for sex has been around since the 1980s, but from a scientific and social standpoint, the two are different, because we have cultural bias of a person's role based on their gender. Yes, biological sex is part of that, but again, a person's gender role in a society is often just stereotyped to sex, not actual aptitude and skill in most cases. The Qun, I would argue, would say otherwise, as they would embrace that aptitude and make sure members of their society fit within the specific gender roles they have created. Hence, it one on skill, not biology. I really don't give a fuck how you look at it, i'm again, not trying to change your mind. My point is that the writers included a plausible explanation as to why a character can be considered Aqun-Athlok within the philosophy of the games actual lore. What you consider to be of little sense actually works within the confines of the philosophy, based on a lot of social theory. What you believe is your business, but it doesn't mean your right either. The next Dragon Age game we will probably meet a soldier of the Qun who is Aqun-Athlok, and considers himself to be male because of his role in the Qun, nothing more.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 12, 2017 16:38:55 GMT
Bioware made comment about trivial problem, Hainly Abrams, and none about serious Kotaku article. I dont't think that this article is bogus. Earlier this week on an earnings call, Electronic Arts CEO Andrew Wilson told investors that the publisher is “very happy with how BioWare is doing, how BioWare is treating Mass Effect. And our expectations for Mass Effect are still strong for the future and the franchise overall.”From the Kotaku article. So why would they have to say the same thing twice, once before then after the article?
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Post by Mihura on May 12, 2017 16:41:34 GMT
Well sure it could be a lie outright but I doubt it. The way ME:A was received it would be logical to put it on ice and see what happened with the dev team responsible.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 16:41:39 GMT
Bioware made comment about trivial problem, Hainly Abrams, and none about serious Kotaku article. I dont't think that this article is bogus. It's EA that makes those statements, and as posted by Fen'Harel Faceman , they did.
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Post by foxhole on May 12, 2017 16:43:26 GMT
Bioware made comment about trivial problem, Hainly Abrams, and none about serious Kotaku article. I dont't think that this article is bogus. It's EA that makes the statements, and as posted by Fen'Harel Faceman , they did. Yes they did, but it's just PR damage control.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 16:45:10 GMT
Yes they did, but it's just PR damage control. Very doubtful given EA's history and want for more money.
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Post by SofNascimento on May 12, 2017 16:45:25 GMT
The denial is strong.
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Post by Kelwing on May 12, 2017 16:45:30 GMT
Gets people talking. No PR is bad PR.
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Post by smilesja on May 12, 2017 16:47:03 GMT
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 12, 2017 16:48:01 GMT
Yes they did, but it's just PR damage control. So first you cite that they didn't say something, so that's a problem... then it's pointed out to you that they did say something then you don't care about what they said. That doesn't make any sense.
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Post by foxhole on May 12, 2017 16:48:30 GMT
Yes they did, but it's just PR damage control. Very doubtful given EA's history and want for more money. That's bullshit. What about Dead Space, Mirror's Edge etc. Every company want's money but only if it's profitable and MEA damaged ME franchise.
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Post by SofNascimento on May 12, 2017 16:49:18 GMT
As people like to say here: "prove it".
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Post by Trilobite Derby on May 12, 2017 16:50:00 GMT
Yes they did, but it's just PR damage control. Annnnnd the part where lying to your investors is very, very bad.
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Post by foxhole on May 12, 2017 16:50:25 GMT
Yes they did, but it's just PR damage control. So first you cite that they didn't say something, so that's a problem... then it's pointed out to you that they did say something then you don't care about what they said. That doesn't make any sense. They didn't say anything about this particular rumor
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 16:50:30 GMT
Very doubtful given EA's history and want for more money. That's bullshit. What about Dead Space, Mirror's Edge etc. Every company want's money but only if it's profitable and MEA damaged ME franchise. Never played or cared for those games, so I have no idea. What I do know is they are doing more work for MEA as we speak and that's good enough for me.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 12, 2017 16:53:26 GMT
So first you cite that they didn't say something, so that's a problem... then it's pointed out to you that they did say something then you don't care about what they said. That doesn't make any sense. They didn't say anything about this particular rumor
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