tjmitchem
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To the Archon! Face down, ass up.
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Post by tjmitchem on May 19, 2017 2:00:56 GMT
Honest opinion here. I don't care for the roleplaying aspect. I started playing ME because it is sci-fi with cool guns and powers. It is also third person which allows us to see the awesome armor. The narrative has never been a big focus for me. It being good is just a bonus. It doesn't have to be as long as the game play holds up. Interesting. Never thought ME appealed to the shooter/gamer types. Thats... an interesting take on ME.
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Post by projectpatdc on May 19, 2017 2:01:20 GMT
Because the Kett seem to part of a larger conflict/mystery than presented in the game. So many blantant and subtle cliffhangers.
This game really is ME1 2.0 but with a much more detailed conflict going on than just "ahhh AI harvesting Organic Life for balance!"
I still ThInk MEA AND Horizon Zero Dawn are slight deviations from another in terms of story
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2017 2:01:45 GMT
I would have been plenty fine traversing 4 new planets and discovering what they had to offer without an super duper evil alien race hanging around. They clearly wanted to start fresh with everything being all shiny and new I could have lived w/out an arch enemy. Just learning about the remnant would have been good enough for me.... and fyi I was somebody who wasn't bothered by driving the mako around in Ontarom. Okay but then we settle words and do what? As weak as the storytelling was, it would be much weaker if there was no antagonist. They might not have been a very good antagonist and when compared the the reapers they are a joke. But they are something to keep the story moving along. Remove them and we meet the angara would would welcome us with open arms. No conflict to drive the story forward. Maybe the outcasts are an issue but they are not enough of an issue to really drive anything forward. They might be a moral quandary to some degree depending on how you look at the nexus and what you might be able to dig up about the past to get you to take sides. Overall though that would be fundamentally boring I think. Archon was very one note for a villain, but I guess he exemplified the kett in a way. He was there to exalt. He was sick of being there. He was going to destroy it all if they didn't line up to become a kett. You know, I think it would be interesting if the autopsy discovers he had some kind of brain abnormality that can be attributed to all the genetic enhancements and manipulation and that is why he behaved that way instead of more like his next in line who wanted to continue to follow the directives they were given. Might make his behavior at least more interesting.
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Post by sinophile on May 19, 2017 2:02:07 GMT
I always thought of ME in general as a shooter for RPG nerds. I think ME and Dragon Age were created because Bioware couldn't get the rights to Stars Wars and D&D.
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zaeedisking
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Post by zaeedisking on May 19, 2017 2:03:12 GMT
Interesting. Never thought ME appealed to the shooter/gamer types. Thats... an interesting take on ME. I mean the combat was pretty terrible in the first entry... I won't argue that so for those you wanted a good sci fi combat sim I'm guessing it wasn't their fav.
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Post by projectpatdc on May 19, 2017 2:04:52 GMT
Honest opinion here. I don't care for the roleplaying aspect. I started playing ME because it is sci-fi with cool guns and powers. It is also third person which allows us to see the awesome armor. The narrative has never been a big focus for me. It being good is just a bonus. It doesn't have to be as long as the game play holds up. Interesting. Never thought ME appealed to the shooter/gamer types. This. This right here is why the fan base is so polarized and split. Many people play Mass Effect strictly for the story and typically hate the gameplay of MEA and others enjoy it as a shooter RPG. I think it's the ones who fall in the middle who think MEA is a good game
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Post by zaeedisking on May 19, 2017 2:09:17 GMT
I always thought of ME in general as a shooter for RPG nerds. I think ME and Dragon Age were created because Bioware couldn't get the rights to Stars Wars and D&D. Check this out. I loved the Vandal Hearts series... I was a shining force fan. That is like old school rpg stuff.. I get giddy thinking about the time Orlandu shows up in final fantasy tactics. Not that those are clear cut examples of pure RPG... but I never played those games for the combat to be sure.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 19, 2017 2:10:00 GMT
Thats... an interesting take on ME. I mean the combat was pretty terrible in the first entry... I won't argue that so for those you wanted a good sci fi combat sim I'm guessing it wasn't their fav. I only really got into the ME franchise when ME3 came out. As you know in order to fully play MET, you have to start at ME1, and work your way up which is what I did.
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Post by projectpatdc on May 19, 2017 2:13:08 GMT
I mean the combat was pretty terrible in the first entry... I won't argue that so for those you wanted a good sci fi combat sim I'm guessing it wasn't their fav. I only really got into the ME franchise when ME3 came out. As you know in order to fully play MET, you have to start at ME1, and work your way up which is what I did. How pissed where you at the end?
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Post by zaeedisking on May 19, 2017 2:16:25 GMT
I mean the combat was pretty terrible in the first entry... I won't argue that so for those you wanted a good sci fi combat sim I'm guessing it wasn't their fav. I only really got into the ME franchise when ME3 came out. As you know in order to fully play MET, you have to start at ME1, and work your way up which is what I did. Well you didn't play your way through the trilogy for the combat did you?
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 19, 2017 2:19:10 GMT
I only really got into the ME franchise when ME3 came out. As you know in order to fully play MET, you have to start at ME1, and work your way up which is what I did. How pissed where you at the end? Wasn't really pissed. I had forehand knowledge of star child due to forums. I always check the forums of games out before I buy them to see what I am getting into. When it did happen though, I was more disappointed then angry. Even the new ending is still awful, but I was happy with the citadel DLC. I mostly stuck with the franchise after that though because of ME3 MP. That was the glue which kept me held to it, and frankly, it is still for the most part.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 19, 2017 2:26:13 GMT
I only really got into the ME franchise when ME3 came out. As you know in order to fully play MET, you have to start at ME1, and work your way up which is what I did. Well you didn't play your way through the trilogy for the combat did you? Actually, yes and no. I am a RPG fan, don't get me wrong on that. I am playing Final Fantasy 14 at the moment because of its story and music. For ME though, it is more or less the setting plus combat if that makes sense. I love how the technology works and functions, but I don't particularly care if the story bombs in some areas as long I am having fun. The combat in ME1 is awful, but once you get some mods it becomes somewhat decent. Comparing it to MEAs combat, it is god awful. I guess you could say I enjoy the world building over the narrative. Basically, as long they keep improving the combat in the series, I couldn't care less how the story pans out. Could be good, or it could be bad. As long as I am having fun and enjoying myself, that is all that matters.
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Post by luketrevelyan on May 19, 2017 2:30:11 GMT
The Kett were a bland underdeveloped enemy led by an even less interesting and almost comically bad villain in the Archon.
I somewhat agree with OP the story would've been stronger without them. But I also agree with others we need an enemy. I'd just like something more developed or at least intimidating. Having a villain just the the sake of it is not good storytelling.
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Post by derrame on May 19, 2017 3:07:51 GMT
we dont need the kett, we need a better enemy
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Post by decafhigh on May 19, 2017 3:14:18 GMT
I'm serious what if the conflict was just based around adapting to the new galaxy/worlds. Why did we need to pew pew things in order for it to be interesting? Some of my favorite ME moments didn't even involve having to resolve a conflict w/ combat. I feel like that would have been a radical departure and good start for the AI. The tone of the game didn't even match the main story... if it was supposed to be about exploration and the remnant that would have been pretty awesome on it's own... wtf did the Kett have to be thrown in for? Just so we had something to CoD at? Pretty much, yeah. I've always said the game would have been better off without the Kett. Let the Roekar serve as the antagonist and race us to Meridian if need be. I'd rather they instead let the game focus on exploration and discovery. That said I don't know how well BW could pull that off, given how anemic the exploration aspects of MEA turned out would cutting the Kett out have given them enough leeway to make that part of the game interesting? Who knows. Throwing yet another unbeatable evil "we shall change you into us" enemy into the game was both dumb and unnecessary though. Now we are gonna need another big space magicy deus ex machina to save the day, just like ME3.
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Post by kino on May 19, 2017 3:18:23 GMT
Yeah, I think they were needed. Having an antagonist gives a push to the story that wouldn't be there without them. If not the Kett it would've been just Roekaar and Outlaws.
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Post by decafhigh on May 19, 2017 3:18:31 GMT
But wasn't that always secondary to the narrative? I never picked up the first ME back when it first came out (yes I'm oldish) for the action/combat. I wouldn't really separate the two myself. Combat is pretty much part of the games' central narratives. To push the story forward, we have to kill a great many things to resolve the conflict. That we might be able to choose a non-lethal response to certain situations is basically the exception rather than the rule. That made sense for Shepard, sure. Makes far less sense in Andromeda. Yes, I'm fully aware the game is meant to pull in the shooter crowds and have MP modes to drain those folks wallets one micro-transaction at a time. Doesn't mean it makes sense for the narrative part of the game. In fact the focus on and the amount of combat in MEA detracts from the narrative instead of supporting it.
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Post by zipzap2000 on May 19, 2017 3:20:07 GMT
ME has changed. ME is now combat focused. Like it or hate it, it doesn't matter since the combat focus is here to stay if the last few games have shown anything. Fair enough.. but what if it is a detriment to what is also great about ME which is the roleplaying aspect? That balance has been off ever since the first entry for me. If the combat is fun or not I could care less if it doesn't support the narrative. I agree with this to a point. I think the combat has never mattered as much to the hardcore fans. But if it were absent from the game it wouldn't be a game anymore more of a movie. Lara Croft Indiana Jones The still need bad guys to blast because without that you're Liara T'soni but human, that makes it boring. But Lara and Indy are the kind of characters I imagine would be great with ME style storytelling and exploration with an ancient race involved. Fancier of course, but thats why I dont think the game needed Kett. Indy has a foe on the scale of the Kett in some stories, but never attempts to have a story revolve entirely around their actions, not even the last crusade takes it that far and the lost Ark really only features Nazis in the background. I'll stop rambling and start drinking now. No, I'm not interested in hearing about Indiana Jones books and how they differ from the movies. Books are for nerds. *Sips Ryncol*
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Post by Sanunes on May 19, 2017 3:24:25 GMT
I think the Kett were needed, but the Archon I think we could have done without. I dunno. I actually really liked the Archon, but there had to be at least a couple of kett that spoke more than a line or two. The only ones that say anything other than him are the Cardinal and Primus. I think having another Kett at the level of Cardinal or Primus would have been a better alternative. The problem is they gave the Archon the possibility of an interesting arc, but they made him completely dispensable too. So having another NPC that reported to him that captured Ryder and you needed to encounter at the end probably would have been just as interesting as the Archon, but saving him to another game would allow his obsession with the Remnant the possibility for the driving force of another game.
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Post by Element Zero on May 19, 2017 3:30:49 GMT
I'm serious what if the conflict was just based around adapting to the new galaxy/worlds. Why did we need to pew pew things in order for it to be interesting? Some of my favorite ME moments didn't even involve having to resolve a conflict w/ combat. I feel like that would have been a radical departure and good start for the AI. The tone of the game didn't even match the main story... if it was supposed to be about exploration and the remnant that would have been pretty awesome on it's own... wtf did the Kett have to be thrown in for? Just so we had something to CoD at? The problem with this is evident in all of the griping on these boards. Many complain about the exploration and "fight to survive" segments. They claim that these parts of the game distract from the kett storyline, which they often call the "main" storyline. In my opinion, the kett were the sidestory, or main plot #2. Exploring and surviving is the main plot, into which the Archon forces himself by way of his agenda. I don't head for the Archon's ship until I've completed every other open quest in the game. That means all planets 100%, all loyalty missions complete, and so on. Played like this, I think the game is very much focused on finding a home. We deal with the Archon because he stands in the way of this goal. I've gone off on a tangent. My point is that people fixate on the villain that "must be defeated". I'm not sure they could handle a game without an archenemy.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 19, 2017 3:32:49 GMT
I wouldn't really separate the two myself. Combat is pretty much part of the games' central narratives. To push the story forward, we have to kill a great many things to resolve the conflict. That we might be able to choose a non-lethal response to certain situations is basically the exception rather than the rule. That made sense for Shepard, sure. Makes far less sense in Andromeda. Yes, I'm fully aware the game is meant to pull in the shooter crowds and have MP modes to drain those folks wallets one micro-transaction at a time. Doesn't mean it makes sense for the narrative part of the game. In fact the focus on and the amount of combat in MEA detracts from the narrative instead of supporting it. I suppose, if the narrative didn't directly involve getting in the middle of a cluster-wide conflict against a warmongering parasitic empire.
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Post by decafhigh on May 19, 2017 3:35:52 GMT
That made sense for Shepard, sure. Makes far less sense in Andromeda. Yes, I'm fully aware the game is meant to pull in the shooter crowds and have MP modes to drain those folks wallets one micro-transaction at a time. Doesn't mean it makes sense for the narrative part of the game. In fact the focus on and the amount of combat in MEA detracts from the narrative instead of supporting it. I suppose, if the narrative didn't directly involve getting in the middle of a cluster-wide conflict against a warmongering parasitic empire. That's not quite what I meant. In the end though I suppose it doesn't matter. Kett are here to stay and the chance at having the Pathfinder actually be a path finder has come and gone now.
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Post by sinophile on May 19, 2017 5:20:38 GMT
The way I see it, Heleus is essentially the Wild West. The Angara are the Native Americans, maybe the Aztecs. The Milky Way species are the French(or any European race that didn't immediately murder the indigenous populace). The Kett are Spanish Conquistadors. If North America wasn't inhabited when the Europeans came, Clint Eastwood and John Wayne wouldn't have had careers. Without the Kett, or a similar antagonist with which to shoot at, ME:A is essentially a Sid Meiers game(less pew pew, more tedious management). That being said, there are two things I would like to change in Andromeda: 1.) The Kett being something besides Collectors that look more like walking rocks than giant bugs. I facepalmed when Jaal found out where Kett came from. 2.) More hands-on Colony management, other than,"I killed all the bad guys, you can build a town now. Any more sidequests for me?". Bioware has done some rudimentary base-building in the past(E.G. Crossroads Keep, Skyhaven)
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Post by maximusarael020 on May 19, 2017 5:58:23 GMT
I see your point, OP. When I first was hearing about Andromeda and the theories of what it would be after 2014 E3, I pictured more of us exploring the worlds, doing a lot of setup for colonies, and helping people from the Nexus/Arks. I also figured there would be multiple new races (maybe four or so) and they would be neither good nor bad, but just have different morals and societal norms. You would ally yourself with some of these races, and doing so would have repercussions with the other races as well as gaining research, weapons, outpost placement, etc. In this way there would still be potential for combat (wildlife, space pirates, opposing factions) but there wouldn't be "Big Bad" to battle. So I didn't think that the Kett were necessary for what I was expecting from the game.
That being said, I was pleasantly surprised with the Kett. They aren't just a one-off bad guy. They have some interesting things going on, with how they reproduce, their infighting, etc. So for me the Kett were welcomed, but I agree they probably weren't necessary.
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Post by Furisco on May 19, 2017 6:27:32 GMT
No problem with an alien race as the antagonists. The Kett just need to look and sound cool but they don't. Enemy design is a big part of games in general. the enemies need to be charismatic and look super cool. I want to shoot at cool shit, not the Kett that sound super boring and with all that green tech around them. They're just awful from a design perspective imo. The idea of an enemy with bones around their body sounds really cool but they could absolutely improve their design in the next game. They could make them look more like the concept art or just improve the look of their tech and armor. Those ugly green things that they use isn't gonna cut it.
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