Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
N6
At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
XBL Gamertag: No.
PSN: No
Posts: 5,220 Likes: 5,079
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To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
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thelastvanguardian
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on May 23, 2017 4:44:11 GMT
We could fight the Q race instead if you prefer. Fight the Q? No problem: Bring an army of Human Time Vortexes The Q are done.
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Post by unwanted on May 23, 2017 11:22:41 GMT
I find the Kett to become old news pretty fast, then you start to hunger for something different to shoot at.
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sherlockholmes
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by sherlockholmes on May 23, 2017 14:29:08 GMT
I refuse to live in a world with a Mass Effect game that didn't allow me to incinerate, eviscerate, or perhaps even defenestrate my enemies with space magic and high tech weaponry. I love a good meaty story about discovery and exploration and interacting with lots of colorful characters, but I'm not going to kid myself: when it comes to games like Mass Effect, Fallout, Dragon Age and the sort, there's also a very visceral desire to have targets we can provide deadly focus. Exactly. The kett exist for me to have something to pew-pew at. Of course, I think a "Star Trek" RPG with a focus on exploration would be boss, but since no one is interested in making one....grrrrr. First of all, kudos to the writer of those three words bolded above. Spit out my coffee laughing when I read them. Incinerate, eviscerate, defenestrate. . .Hah! Words to live by, for sure. You folks are certainly an articulate bunch! Second, StarTrek has been mentioned several times in reference to the opening voiceover about space exploration, "to seek out new life and new civilizations," but to me, that all ended when the opening credits ended, as I never got the feeling that's what the crew of the Enterprise was engaged in. I can't say for sure, but I'd say in every episode they armed those photon torpedoes at least once. However, there was one episode of ST:TNG which I think illustrates my take on what's being said: "A Day in the Life of Data." My memory fails to recall the exact details of that episode, but I think that's all it was about. No epic confrontations, no moral dilemmas, just the minor foibles of ordinary life--for an android. Involving his cat. My favorite from that time, because it provided what I'd always hoped to see, what it might be like to live at that time and place under those extraordinary circumstances without a lot of fireworks going off. There have been times in the games we catch glimpses of this: Kreia's voiceover reflection on Nar Shaddaa, Shepard's collecting of dog tags, Tali's visit to the planet of her ancestors, Mordin's love of light opera, Cora's garden. Subdued ruminative emotional moments all. But they were, after all, only moments. I'm not saying the game should be all that, but I think a return of the deep story loyalty missions of the Trilogy would help. In Andromeda, it seems completing the token "loyalty missions" only get you an unlock of technology and perhaps a romp in the hay. I dunno. I just don't seem as invested in the squad as I did when I played the Trilogy, which in turn affects my attitude about the story. So as far as the Kett being needed, a game needs conflict. However, it's a good question about whether it needs an overarching storyline with villains such as the Kett. The problem is that when they get to be cookie cutter, you start to get like the old James Bond movies. A major villain surrounded by his/her minions that serve no other purpose than to provide targets. There's at least some dissension among the Kett to provide some shade of depth, but by the end of the game, we're greeted by the next installment's Kett villain, whose appearance I suppose is intended to be more sinister, but really, just looks a little more rock-like. Frankly, I laughed when I saw it. For real visual differentiation, consider Darths Malak, Nihilus, and Sion, who does look a little rock-like himself.
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zaeedisking
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: V4vendetta82
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Post by zaeedisking on May 23, 2017 18:25:35 GMT
So as far as the Kett being needed, a game needs conflict. However, it's a good question about whether it needs an overarching storyline with villains such as the Kett. The problem is that when they get to be cookie cutter, you start to get like the old James Bond movies. A major villain surrounded by his/her minions that serve no other purpose than to provide targets. There's at least some dissension among the Kett to provide some shade of depth, but by the end of the game, we're greeted by the next installment's Kett villain, whose appearance I suppose is intended to be more sinister, but really, just looks a little more rock-like. Frankly, I laughed when I saw it. For real visual differentiation, consider Darths Malak, Nihilus, and Sion, who does look a little rock-like himself. My feeling is the creative team behind Andromeda just decided to take the safe approach with the story. You could probably come up with something similar to the Kett looks/story-wise in probably an hour or so on your own. I find it hard to believe they spent 5 years in development and this is the best result they could muster.
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Post by chawktrick on May 24, 2017 18:07:55 GMT
Other than putting it in big, red letters, I don't know how to make it clearer that the lack of kett or a similar all-powerful evil person/race doesn't equal a lack of conflict. If their storytelling is so great, I'm sure they could pull it off without the kett. Also, "other games did this" isn't really much of an argument. But yeah, sure, the "big hero vs big evil dude" formula is as effective as it's overused. That doesn't mean it's the only way, though. Where did I say anything about that being the only way? Perhaps I need big red letters, if we're going to devolve this discussion into passive aggressive banter - we didn't "need" the kett, but we needed something more than exploration and planet specific enemies. I'm not sure how you interpreted that as meaning something so simplistic and dull as "big hero vs big evil dude." My point about other games was in relation to storytelling - most great stories rely on a signature point of conflict. Did it need to be the kett or some omnipotent force? Of course not.
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Post by decafhigh on May 24, 2017 18:19:21 GMT
Where did I say anything about that being the only way? Perhaps I need big red letters, if we're going to devolve this discussion into passive aggressive banter - we didn't "need" the kett, but we needed something more than exploration and planet specific enemies. I'm not sure how you interpreted that as meaning something so simplistic and dull as "big hero vs big evil dude." My point about other games was in relation to storytelling - most great stories rely on a signature point of conflict. Did it need to be the kett or some omnipotent force? Of course not. Agree to disagree and all that, but I would have preferred a game about exploration and planet specific enemies/conflicts/dangers/what evers. Andromeda was supposed to be about those things. Exploration, discovery, and being a Pathfinder. Instead it all ended up just being another space marine pew-pew marathon. The story telling at times tries to say the game isn't about those things which just creates a huge disconnect since playing the game is all about shooting everything that moves. I liked the concepts of Andromeda and the Initiative and being a Pathfinder but it all that ended up just being window dressing with no impact on the gameplay or the narrative direction.
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Post by chawktrick on May 24, 2017 18:30:56 GMT
Where did I say anything about that being the only way? Perhaps I need big red letters, if we're going to devolve this discussion into passive aggressive banter - we didn't "need" the kett, but we needed something more than exploration and planet specific enemies. I'm not sure how you interpreted that as meaning something so simplistic and dull as "big hero vs big evil dude." My point about other games was in relation to storytelling - most great stories rely on a signature point of conflict. Did it need to be the kett or some omnipotent force? Of course not. Agree to disagree and all that, but I would have preferred a game about exploration and planet specific enemies/conflicts/dangers/what evers. Andromeda was supposed to be about those things. Exploration, discovery, and being a Pathfinder. Instead it all ended up just being another space marine pew-pew marathon. The story telling at times tries to say the game isn't about those things which just creates a huge disconnect since playing the game is all about shooting everything that moves. I liked the concepts of Andromeda and the Initiative and being a Pathfinder but it all that ended up just being window dressing with no impact on the gameplay or the narrative direction. I can see what you're saying, but if you're developing a multi-million dollar AAA title, you're obligated to tell a story and build a game that appeals to a massive player base. I just don't think you're going to make enough sales on your above mentioned formula. As I mentioned before, think of every great game or great story you've ever read and loved. I'm guessing most of them have a primary point of conflict (whatever that point may be). I think MEA dropped the ball and went the wrong direction with the kett, because there are elements of this game that could've been taken a different direction and still been a part of a great story.
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Post by decafhigh on May 24, 2017 18:34:51 GMT
Agree to disagree and all that, but I would have preferred a game about exploration and planet specific enemies/conflicts/dangers/what evers. Andromeda was supposed to be about those things. Exploration, discovery, and being a Pathfinder. Instead it all ended up just being another space marine pew-pew marathon. The story telling at times tries to say the game isn't about those things which just creates a huge disconnect since playing the game is all about shooting everything that moves. I liked the concepts of Andromeda and the Initiative and being a Pathfinder but it all that ended up just being window dressing with no impact on the gameplay or the narrative direction. I can see what you're saying, but if you're developing a multi-million dollar AAA title, you're obligated to tell a story and build a game that appeals to a massive player base. I just don't think you're going to make enough sales on your above mentioned formula. As I mentioned before, think of every great game or great story you've ever read and loved. I'm guessing most of them have a primary point of conflict (whatever that point may be). I think MEA dropped the ball and went the wrong direction with the kett, because there are elements of this game that could've been taken a different direction and still been a part of a great story. Guess we'll never know now. I certainly think it is well within possibility to make a game that doesn't entirely center around shooting faceless targets for 100 hours. In fact there are many, many successful games out there that do just that. Whether or not Bioware could pull that off is another question entirely I suppose.
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CriticalFailure
N2
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
Origin: CriticalFailure0
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Post by CriticalFailure on May 25, 2017 0:40:35 GMT
Where did I say anything about that being the only way? Perhaps I need big red letters, if we're going to devolve this discussion into passive aggressive banter - we didn't "need" the kett, but we needed something more than exploration and planet specific enemies. I'm not sure how you interpreted that as meaning something so simplistic and dull as "big hero vs big evil dude." My point about other games was in relation to storytelling - most great stories rely on a signature point of conflict. Did it need to be the kett or some omnipotent force? Of course not. Well, you did speak about the need for a major antagonist. Obviously, "big hero vs big evil dude" is purposedly oversimplistic, but "planet-specific enemies" isn't a super complex concept either. The red letters comment wasn't directed just at you, but at the bunch of comments using combat and conflict as arguments for the need of the kett. Anyway, agree to disagree, at least to an extent, and wholeheartedly agree with decafhigh , even though I'd still want combat to remain an important and signature part of the game. And to be clear, when I say "exploration", I mean it more as in the drive of the story, rather than just driving around a so-called open world and entering the occasional cave. Whether or not all of this would be a commercial success is a different matter, but I think it could be, if done right.
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Post by ozzie on May 25, 2017 11:12:16 GMT
As I previously entered into on this thread, conceptually the Kett are a nonsense, there is no way that the Andromeda Initiative could hope to colonise a cluster that already had a militaristic colonial force occupying it for the last 70 years without having a large armed fleet of ships themselves to control the skies above their colonised worlds and protect their supply routes. It would be like Lithuania trying to found a colony on Cuba in the 1500's. If you really wanted to keep the Kett, with the whole genetic hijacking and goal of weaponising the remenent technology, and still have them make sense they would have to operate like the collectors from ME2, striking out from an unknown base in devastating surprise attacks, but given their existing similarities to the collectors/reapers this would have probably have been a bridge too far. The shame is though, the premise of ME:A was an absolute goldmine for a talented sci-fi writing team to work on. There are so many themes to explore here, the ethics of terraforming worlds with indigenous life, what if the environment is already compatible with our physiology? How then do we deal with dangerous flora and fauna, wipe them out, learn to co-exist? The first tentative steps on a new undiscovered planet, starting out simple with scans and sample taking, the wonder of the first encounter with a new alien species... the shock at it suddenly leaps and coils itself round Liam's neck. Drama as he flails around pleading for help while Dr Lexi shouts at you over the comm to take it alive for study, then humour as Liam vents his frustrations at either Lexi or Ryder, hell it might even have endeared some people to the Liam character. Trite I know, but then I'm not a talented sci-fi writer, just an avid consumer OK, so then you have sentient life. ME:1 introduced around a dozen sentient alien species, delved in detail into their physiology, history and politics without you even having to read the supplemental stuff in the codex. ME:A had the ability to approach this in even greater detail, seeing how worlds shape their evolution and culture. Not entering an existing built galaxy where everything is known, discovering it. Imagine trying to piece together the relationship between the Krogan, Turian and the Salarian for the first time. So is this new sentient life hostile? Why, can we even understand? can we make peace? Or is it friendly? If so, is it trustworthy? What is its level of technological development, more or less advanced than us? Does it have FTL capabilities? Bear in mind that the cultures of the Milky Way only have FTL because of the Prothean's. Life in the Andromeda galaxy could conceivabley be far more advanced than us without access to this technology. How do they react when they discover that we have this 'holy grail' of technology? Would they attempt to take it by force? How do the Initiative races feel about trading this technology given the history of 'technologically elevated' races, more importantly how do the other Andromeda races feel about you giving out access to this tech? I think this is what depresses me most about ME:A, they had fresh slate to work off to create a vibrant and interesting galaxy populated by original and detailed species and cultures. What we got was just lazy nonsense that was crowbar'd in for development ease, instead of the scouting 'Pathfinder' teams turning up with the Nexus, where it would have made sense. We have the scouts turn up 14 month later just so that we could have worlds already populated by easy to design Milky Way species in copy/paste prefab environments with the developers just keeping their fingers crossed that we never stop to think about how or why any of this stuff is there and if they have already been pretty successfully colonising planets for 14 month, what the whole point of Pathfinders even was.
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Post by decafhigh on May 25, 2017 13:43:59 GMT
Great post ozzieI want to play that game!
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Post by ozzie on May 25, 2017 16:31:04 GMT
Thanks Decaf, I also had something about the rarity of dextro-amino based worlds (noting the Quarians in near 300 years never found another home-world) and the potential for conflict arising there, but wasn't sure if ME:A had this covered already and I was running out of lunch break anyway I think perhaps they should have got Drew Karpyshyn and Matt Rohodes back on board before embarking on this project. OT, like the sig, I'm looking very much forward to Cyberpunk 2077, first came across CD Projekt Red just 3 weeks ago when I bought the The Witcher 3 based off what I read lurking on this board care and attention to detail is just staggering. Don't want to put in on a pedestal or anything but hopefully we will start to see some WIP stuff early next year.
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