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Post by decafhigh on May 19, 2017 16:50:38 GMT
Exactly, and first contact with hostile lifeforms is part of that conflict of adapting. Yeah, no thanks. I'm not ready for Mass Effect to become a point and click "adventure". The combat was one of the highlights of MEA. Hell yeah I want to PEW PEW things in a science fiction video game. Ummm sue me. The problem with the antagonists is that they're boring, not that there are antagonists lmao This is my worry... and unfortunately it's coming true. People want ME to be Halo. Unfortunately, yep. Like heathenoxman said I would have really looked forward to a change in tone toward more of a Star Trek exploration, discovery, diplomacy type setting for MEA instead of another gun totting space marines setting. Would have fit with the story and the job of a Pathfinder much better. Would Bioware have been able to pull that off and make the gameplay interesting without pew-pew'ing everything that moves? I don't know, would have been cool to see them try though.
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XBL Gamertag: V4vendetta82
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Post by zaeedisking on May 19, 2017 17:26:56 GMT
I'm not even advocating removing combat from ME. Just saddened they chose to rehash the galaxy wide super villain archetype again. As a previous poster mentioned (and was a neat idea) each planet could have been it's own antagonist to the AI in a way.
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Post by chawktrick on May 19, 2017 17:36:59 GMT
I'm not even advocating removing combat from ME. Just saddened they chose to rehash the galaxy wide super villain archetype again. As a previous poster mentioned (and was a neat idea) each planet could have been it's own antagonist to the AI in a way. When you have access to an entire galaxy, I think you need an antagonist who is capable of impacting you almost anywhere. Otherwise, they're not a very dangerous or intimidating foe. Most video games I can think of are based on enemies that envelop your surroundings and, in some cases, your very way of life. The idea of planet specific enemies is interesting as a side story line, but it can't be an anchor. I don't think a majority of players would have been interested in something like that and I'd be one of them. One problem, in my opinion, is that almost any enemy is going to pale in comparison to the Reapers. And, if you compare the kett/Reapers, you can see a lot of similarities. Most notably - the Reapers harvested species to turn them into more Reapers. The kett harvest species to turn them into more kett and improve their species. There's quite a bit of crossover. It's a difficult problem to overcome and I'm not sure there was any easy solution that would've made for a compelling story.
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Post by cypherj on May 19, 2017 17:56:30 GMT
I'm not even advocating removing combat from ME. Just saddened they chose to rehash the galaxy wide super villain archetype again. As a previous poster mentioned (and was a neat idea) each planet could have been it's own antagonist to the AI in a way. When you have access to an entire galaxy, I think you need an antagonist who is capable of impacting you almost anywhere. Otherwise, they're not a very dangerous or intimidating foe. Most video games I can think of are based on enemies that envelop your surroundings and, in some cases, your very way of life. The idea of planet specific enemies is interesting as a side story line, but it can't be an anchor. I don't think a majority of players would have been interested in something like that and I'd be one of them. One problem, in my opinion, is that almost any enemy is going to pale in comparison to the Reapers. And, if you compare the kett/Reapers, you can see a lot of similarities. Most notably - the Reapers harvested species to turn them into more Reapers. The kett harvest species to turn them into more kett and improve their species. There's quite a bit of crossover. It's a difficult problem to overcome and I'm not sure there was any easy solution that would've made for a compelling story. Don''t know if I agree with this. In ME:1 you fought Geth primarily on one planet, then you fought Ranchi as the story enemy on Noveria, then you fought the Thorian and possessed colonists on another world. You didn't get the big overarching villain until the end of Virmire, and the game worked fine up to that point. But like I said in my other post, if the Kett where going to be the big overarching villain they should have built them up as more than just a fodder enemy. In the prologue your one squad storms a facility filled with Kett and routes them, that set the tone. How come you could not have found the place first, had the Kett come, more advanced and force you into retreat, and that be how your father ends up dying, covering your escape or something. Then they would have been set up as something bigger.
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XBL Gamertag: V4vendetta82
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Post by zaeedisking on May 19, 2017 18:01:35 GMT
I'm not even advocating removing combat from ME. Just saddened they chose to rehash the galaxy wide super villain archetype again. As a previous poster mentioned (and was a neat idea) each planet could have been it's own antagonist to the AI in a way. When you have access to an entire galaxy, I think you need an antagonist who is capable of impacting you almost anywhere. Otherwise, they're not a very dangerous or intimidating foe. Most video games I can think of are based on enemies that envelop your surroundings and, in some cases, your very way of life. The idea of planet specific enemies is interesting as a side story line, but it can't be an anchor. I don't think a majority of players would have been interested in something like that and I'd be one of them. One problem, in my opinion, is that almost any enemy is going to pale in comparison to the Reapers. And, if you compare the kett/Reapers, you can see a lot of similarities. Most notably - the Reapers harvested species to turn them into more Reapers. The kett harvest species to turn them into more kett and improve their species. There's quite a bit of crossover. It's a difficult problem to overcome and I'm not sure there was any easy solution that would've made for a compelling story. I dunno... it certainly would have been a radical departure from the OT. Would MEA have been for everybody if they took out a galaxy wide threat? Maybe not. I found the scourge way more menacing after a while than I did the Kett. The Kett had my interest in their very first cinematic... but a lot like what happened with the reapers once they lost their cthulhu appeal I feel they became sorta lame.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 19, 2017 18:50:06 GMT
Kett were aright. Archie was a joke. With him dead, hopefully Primus will be a better villain in the next game Archie?
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Post by AnDromedary on May 19, 2017 19:01:08 GMT
Ok, first of all: We could fight the Q race instead if you prefer. This is probably the best Q scene ever. Second, I like the kett as an antagonist race. I think they strike a good ballance. - They are evil enough that we can fight them without much remorse (I've heard them described as the biological equivalent to the borg, to stick with the Star Trek metaphor). - They still have quite a bit of mystique about them and from what we know so far, we've only seen a tiny sub-fraction of their race. - Despite their evilness, they are able and willing to interact with us, unlike the reapers who were just so aloof that they didn't consider us more than ants to stomp on. This gives them the potential for interesting stories, which can go beyond fight for survival". - While powerful as a race, they are not invincible, again, as the reapers were. A war against the kett will not necessarily rely on a deus ex machina like the crucible to win it. - They seem to have internal conflicts going on, which could be explored and exploited further in the future and which already make them interesting So yea, I think the kett were pretty well designed and handled in the game and they definitely have a great deal of potential for possible sequels, definitely more than the reapers ever had. Don't get me wrong, I loved Sovereign and his speech but one has to admit that the BW writers did write themselves into a bit of a corner with them. The kett seem to be more sustainable as villains (or even in more complex roles) in Andromeda.
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Post by decafhigh on May 19, 2017 20:00:21 GMT
I'm not even advocating removing combat from ME. Just saddened they chose to rehash the galaxy wide super villain archetype again. As a previous poster mentioned (and was a neat idea) each planet could have been it's own antagonist to the AI in a way. Yeah I know I'm in the minority there, wanting a more methodical and cerebral gameplay that doesn't involve solving every issue at muzzle velocity. Fact is if BW just removed all the story and characters and sold the game as a straight up shooter they would probably double their sales overnight. Sad as it is, that is the state of the video game industry today.
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Post by chawktrick on May 19, 2017 20:28:30 GMT
When you have access to an entire galaxy, I think you need an antagonist who is capable of impacting you almost anywhere. Otherwise, they're not a very dangerous or intimidating foe. Most video games I can think of are based on enemies that envelop your surroundings and, in some cases, your very way of life. The idea of planet specific enemies is interesting as a side story line, but it can't be an anchor. I don't think a majority of players would have been interested in something like that and I'd be one of them. One problem, in my opinion, is that almost any enemy is going to pale in comparison to the Reapers. And, if you compare the kett/Reapers, you can see a lot of similarities. Most notably - the Reapers harvested species to turn them into more Reapers. The kett harvest species to turn them into more kett and improve their species. There's quite a bit of crossover. It's a difficult problem to overcome and I'm not sure there was any easy solution that would've made for a compelling story. Don''t know if I agree with this. In ME:1 you fought Geth primarily on one planet, then you fought Ranchi as the story enemy on Noveria, then you fought the Thorian and possessed colonists on another world. You didn't get the big overarching villain until the end of Virmire, and the game worked fine up to that point. True, but the one thing that ties the Geth, Rachni and all the other early elements together is Saren and his "ship" Sovereign, no? He's essentially the foundation upon which everything else is built before we realize Sovereign is the true threat. That was kind of my point. The idea (as I interpreted it) was planet specific enemies and I think you ultimately need to have one major antagonist tying all of those elements together, and in a game that is based upon galaxy-wide travel, it's hard to make that enemy anything else but a galaxy-wide threat.
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Post by chawktrick on May 19, 2017 20:32:00 GMT
When you have access to an entire galaxy, I think you need an antagonist who is capable of impacting you almost anywhere. Otherwise, they're not a very dangerous or intimidating foe. Most video games I can think of are based on enemies that envelop your surroundings and, in some cases, your very way of life. The idea of planet specific enemies is interesting as a side story line, but it can't be an anchor. I don't think a majority of players would have been interested in something like that and I'd be one of them. One problem, in my opinion, is that almost any enemy is going to pale in comparison to the Reapers. And, if you compare the kett/Reapers, you can see a lot of similarities. Most notably - the Reapers harvested species to turn them into more Reapers. The kett harvest species to turn them into more kett and improve their species. There's quite a bit of crossover. It's a difficult problem to overcome and I'm not sure there was any easy solution that would've made for a compelling story. I dunno... it certainly would have been a radical departure from the OT. Would MEA have been for everybody if they took out a galaxy wide threat? Maybe not. I found the scourge way more menacing after a while than I did the Kett. The Kett had my interest in their very first cinematic... but a lot like what happened with the reapers once they lost their cthulhu appeal I feel they became sorta lame. I see what you're saying, but I think the common thread in any great story is a primary antagonist threat. In Star Wars, it's the Empire. In Lord of the Rings, it's Sauron. In the Mass Effect trilogy, it was the Reapers. The idea I responded to (as I interpreted it) reference planet specific threats instead of something that ties them all together. I don't think that offers very wide-ranging appeal and certainly makes the impact on the player seem diminished.
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Post by Sumerian Physics on May 19, 2017 21:04:59 GMT
Exactly, and first contact with hostile lifeforms is part of that conflict of adapting. Yeah, no thanks. I'm not ready for Mass Effect to become a point and click "adventure". The combat was one of the highlights of MEA. Hell yeah I want to PEW PEW things in a science fiction video game. Ummm sue me. The problem with the antagonists is that they're boring, not that there are antagonists lmao This is my worry... and unfortunately it's coming true. People want ME to be Halo. Where did I mention Halo? I like it the way it is. It seems like people like you and OP should be playing Batman a Tell Tale Series
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Post by KLGChaos on May 19, 2017 21:06:25 GMT
We do need an antagonist. I'm just hoping they get much more fleshed out in the sequels. We really didn't learn a lot about them in this game. It was more about what they did to the Angarans.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 19, 2017 22:41:12 GMT
Kett were aright. Archie was a joke. With him dead, hopefully Primus will be a better villain in the next game Archie? I can see it now. Ryder having a final boss battle with Pureheart the Insufferable Sonofabitch.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: V4vendetta82
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Post by zaeedisking on May 19, 2017 23:09:02 GMT
This is my worry... and unfortunately it's coming true. People want ME to be Halo. Where did I mention Halo? I like it the way it is. It seems like people like you and OP should be playing Batman a Tell Tale Series
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XBL Gamertag: V4vendetta82
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Post by zaeedisking on May 19, 2017 23:13:39 GMT
I'm not even advocating removing combat from ME. Just saddened they chose to rehash the galaxy wide super villain archetype again. As a previous poster mentioned (and was a neat idea) each planet could have been it's own antagonist to the AI in a way. Yeah I know I'm in the minority there, wanting a more methodical and cerebral gameplay that doesn't involve solving every issue at muzzle velocity. Fact is if BW just removed all the story and characters and sold the game as a straight up shooter they would probably double their sales overnight. Sad as it is, that is the state of the video game industry today. They definitely tried that approach in the first game... I'm such a throwback I remember randomly picking out the first ME at a blockbuster video! I took from the marketing on the cover that they were going for a Star Trek vibe. I certainly didn't grab it because it looked like it was going to be some action packed shooter. Maybe we're in the minority now... I'm not so sure though.
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Post by Doctor Fumbles on May 19, 2017 23:19:56 GMT
Yeah I know I'm in the minority there, wanting a more methodical and cerebral gameplay that doesn't involve solving every issue at muzzle velocity. Fact is if BW just removed all the story and characters and sold the game as a straight up shooter they would probably double their sales overnight. Sad as it is, that is the state of the video game industry today. They definitely tried that approach in the first game... I'm such a throwback I remember randomly picking out the first ME at a blockbuster video! I certainly took from the marketing on the cover that they were going for a Star Trek vibe. I certainly didn't grab it because it looked like it was going to be some action packed shooter. Maybe we're in the minority now... I'm not so sure though. I remember BlockBuster video. Wow, it has been ages.
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Post by CriticalFailure on May 19, 2017 23:35:30 GMT
The idea I responded to (as I interpreted it) reference planet specific threats instead of something that ties them all together. That "something" is the plot, which doesn't need to include a single, omnipresent, larger-than-life villain to function perfectly. In fact, I don't really see the kett tying it all together in this case. If anything, they diminish the whole pathfinding and new galaxy discovery, which felt to me like a totally unrelated sidequest, even if it's technically your job and priority. If I were to include them anyway, I'd have probably done it later in the story, once you're stablished in Andromeda. So maybe focus mostly on getting to know and settling in Andromeda in the first game (preferably making it more interesting than those damn vaults), and expand on the whole evil overlord menace in the sequels, once you have an actual home to defend.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 19, 2017 23:48:43 GMT
They definitely tried that approach in the first game... I'm such a throwback I remember randomly picking out the first ME at a blockbuster video! I certainly took from the marketing on the cover that they were going for a Star Trek vibe. I certainly didn't grab it because it looked like it was going to be some action packed shooter. Maybe we're in the minority now... I'm not so sure though. I remember BlockBuster video. Wow, it has been ages. This is all I think about now when I think of Blockbuster video.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 2:09:37 GMT
I wish the Kett had stuck to their Angara tactics with the Milky Way races. With the Angara they acted all friendly at first, making promises, giving gifts. With "us" they don't even bother to talk, just start shooting.
It would have been more fun when we first arrived at the Nexus to find them all buddy buddy with the Kett. Maybe even let us fight some Angara on their behalf. And then later find out they're actually the bad guys.
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Post by gplayer on May 20, 2017 2:21:28 GMT
I'd say without the Remnant would be better. Make it a game about survival and tough choices, with the kett one of many factors like exiles..etc.
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Post by LogicGunn on May 21, 2017 20:39:23 GMT
We needed the kett to be a credible, fleshed out antagonistic race. Ditto the Archon.
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Post by kharsis on May 22, 2017 0:58:48 GMT
We could fight the Q race instead if you prefer. Worst things the Star Trek multiverse was introduce the Q race and mess around with time travel. I always cringed and tried to avoid those episodes. (Not always always easy when flatting with friends whoe were Star Trek Otakus)
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Post by chawktrick on May 22, 2017 17:36:36 GMT
The idea I responded to (as I interpreted it) reference planet specific threats instead of something that ties them all together. That "something" is the plot. That's not a plot - those are story elements. A plot requires a priority conflict/tension or else it's not going to be a very interesting story for long. As per this thread's title, we didn't "need" the kett, but we needed something more than exploration and planet specific enemies. ME has always relied upon really good storytelling and that's why most of the fans love the series - it's an addicting and in-depth universe. Think of every great game you've played in the last decade that has a main story and think about that game's core plot elements. I guarantee you you'll be able to identify one overwhelming conflict that drives the plot. The true issue here isn't the kett - it's their implementation and role in the universe.
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Post by griffith82 on May 22, 2017 17:50:01 GMT
They definitely tried that approach in the first game... I'm such a throwback I remember randomly picking out the first ME at a blockbuster video! I certainly took from the marketing on the cover that they were going for a Star Trek vibe. I certainly didn't grab it because it looked like it was going to be some action packed shooter. Maybe we're in the minority now... I'm not so sure though. I remember BlockBuster video. Wow, it has been ages. lol I played my first N64 by renting it from them lol.
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Post by CriticalFailure on May 22, 2017 19:38:43 GMT
Other than putting it in big, red letters, I don't know how to make it clearer that the lack of kett or a similar all-powerful evil person/race doesn't equal a lack of conflict. If their storytelling is so great, I'm sure they could pull it off without the kett.
Also, "other games did this" isn't really much of an argument. But yeah, sure, the "big hero vs big evil dude" formula is as effective as it's overused. That doesn't mean it's the only way, though.
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