Fen'Harel Faceman
N7
GIF Addict
Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Workin' so hard, to make it easy.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 23, 2017 9:55:31 GMT
Considering I want as much bang for my buck as possible, and sometimes I'm in the mood for my naked pixels, I say keep 'em for people who want 'em.
All the "time and resources" talk is just that... talk. That's Bioware's problem. As a customer, it's not my problem. I expect them to learn, grow, and deliver more... not less... in the future.
I've said it before in another thread... for those who don't want to see the jigglies, they can provide a "fade to black" button.
I also play Bioware games for the fun story, and romance is a part of a fun story for my tastes. They should keep it in and work on making it better. It's already an improvement from ME1.
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EllanyaWindkeeper
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
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Post by EllanyaWindkeeper on May 23, 2017 10:28:48 GMT
No. If I can see these people kill and die and roleplay within that, I want the same for sex and romance. Does that mean every romance needs skin? No, but I actually found Cora's scene quite powerful and moving because it felt natural. And the post sex convo was one the best conversations in the franchise. Felt the same with Inquisition. The scenes only added to the world. I would not trade them. Agreed! No one can says better!
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 10:32:35 GMT
I'd rather they spent the time making an extra little romance cutscene than waste it doing cringy sex scenes. DA:O's scenes were just awful. Fade to black is always better imo, no cringe and you can leave it to your imagination (which will always be better than a video game, let's face it). Also has the added benefit of helping those who are uncomfortable with them. Besides, the best romance moments for me in DA:I so far have been seeing Dorian's glorious bum and my dwarf IQ's voluptuous boobs when chatting to Iron Bull in bed. Who needs sex when you've got that?
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on May 23, 2017 11:29:37 GMT
I'd rather they spent the time making an extra little romance cutscene than waste it doing cringy sex scenes. DA:O's scenes were just awful. Fade to black is always better imo, no cringe and you can leave it to your imagination (which will always be better than a video game, let's face it). Also has the added benefit of helping those who are uncomfortable with them. Besides, the best romance moments for me in DA:I so far have been seeing Dorian's glorious bum and my dwarf IQ's voluptuous boobs when chatting to Iron Bull in bed. Who needs sex when you've got that? Being dumped out into the corridor due to a cheap fade to black with Miranda in ME3 was just awful. I wouldn't want them to add some cheap little gimmicky romantic moments whilst gutting a core element of the relationship.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 11:40:27 GMT
I really don't care about sex scenes. I'm a much bigger fan of lots of dialogue and certain lines that are "colored up" that makes the romance apparent. This, but tbh, there are only two detailed sex scenes in Andromeda, the one I saw was skippable, so I can't say it has any impact at all. Personally, I'd prefer better kissing/flirting scenes during the actions in the game quests. Reyes romance was perfect for me in what it showed and when.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 11:52:16 GMT
If explicit scenes are available for every love interest and every romance has the option for a non-explicit alternative then I would say they I'm fine with them. Just don't arbitrarily give explicit scenes to some love interest while others cut to black, or force explicit scenes on some romances while others can be avoided.
Imbalance is the kind worst offense a developer can make here.
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Post by christsuperstar on May 23, 2017 11:59:46 GMT
I would like us to consider five things. 1. Quality. 2. Time and resources spent. 3. Overall impact of the scenes themselves. 4. Presentation vs Alternative options such as fade to black. 5. Does it get in the way of story telling and can be a distraction. So basically is the story/the game overall, better, or worse off for having detailed sex scenes. Keeping in mind most people will not romance more than 1-2 LI's (No, not you specifically MOST PEOPLE.) I think the fade to black after a brief scene is the way to go. It allows the story to continue without the romance becoming the cinematic focus towards the final moments. Also frees up time and resources. A mix of both. The sex scenes are in no way the reason for bad content, or lack of content. I even liked them, as they were very well done. One of the things they actually did right - and for me, it adds to the depth of the "feel" overall. Though, if the contrast was "very bad scenes", fade to black would be to prefer. So, in this case, the verdict is; "better off", imo. Why not include a poll though?
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Post by griffith82 on May 23, 2017 17:03:58 GMT
I think sex scenes are perfectly fine if they aren't gratuitous. "Romance" shouldn't really be an excuse for straight up porn. Agreed. I've seen the scenes and to me they are fine and add a nice conclusion to the romance. As long as the sex/nudity isn't just thrown in just to be there I'm fine with it.
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Post by Vortex13 on May 23, 2017 17:22:20 GMT
I am of the opinion that the romance content and sex scenes have gotten a bit out of hand for the past few titles. I am not opposed to their inclusion as a small, optional piece of content, but when the developers coin an unofficial tagline of "Pretty Good Banging" to the latest in a series that originally drew me in because of it's world building and exploration of science fiction topics is when I say it's gone too far.
And it's not just the amount of resources that are put into the multiple romance and flirting scenes, or level of detail used in the act of sex that I have an issue with; though I do feel that said resources could be used better elsewhere. It's the influence that this romance heavy catering has on the design philosophy for the rest of the game: "Gotta make those new aliens fuck-able for the player base, lets not bother even trying to explore non-human/alien concepts with them or anything else in the story.", "Who actually cares about the content and sense of danger involved with the main quest line and antagonist? People just want to gather those ingredients for that 'Movie Night' with their squad/romances." Etc.
I say that the amount of romance heavy content needs to be trimmed back to ME 1 levels, just two or three options to choose from and only really one actual sex scene; strip everything else out and use it to improve the world building, non-romance dialog/character development, etc.
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LogicGunn
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by LogicGunn on May 23, 2017 17:40:37 GMT
I don't see it as a zero sum. We can have well done sex scenes without sacrificing other aspects of a game.
If time/resources are a factor though, I'd ditch large maps filled with repetitive quests.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 23, 2017 19:15:57 GMT
Dialogue and interaction is, imo FAR more important than a sex scene. In fact, I fail to see why anyone attaches any importance to a sex scene in a romance at all (though that's just me. I will take more quality "lovetalks" or extra quests over seeing someone's nipples or butts any time.
And given how much work clearly went into some of the sex scenes in MEA (when only a minority of the players romance ANYONE), compared to the faces of characters every single player interacts with (pre-patch at least), I have to wonder what the hell Bioware was thinking, and whether those "zots" could have been better spent elsewhere.
I mean, I play these games to role-play, to interact in a story, not to watch a movie (certainly not porn). Don't get me wrong, I like a good romance. But romance =/=sex. Not everyone needs a sex scene. Not everyone wants a sex scene. Heck a sex scene isn't always appropriate for a particular romance *thinks back to Planescape: Torment*
So yeah, I will always favor fade-to-black. It gives the player enough flexibility to imagine what happens. It's cheap. It doesn't distract from other, more important aspects of the game.
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Post by Necrotya on May 23, 2017 19:22:12 GMT
To OP: NO !
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 19:36:59 GMT
I see no problem with nudity in the romance scenes as long as it is done with some class. Full-blown depiction of the act would be straight up gratuitous, (not to mention smack of an Ao rating) and unnecessary. I'm no prude, but going hardcore porno mode would make me uncomfortable.
The way ME:A handled it was pretty well done and what I would see as the gold standard for future romances in the ME series. We humans are a very sexually driven species after all.
Now if only we Vetramancers didn't get screwed by a shitty fade to black... I want my nekkid turian, damnit!
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Post by AnDromedary on May 23, 2017 19:41:00 GMT
The ever more involved romance arcs are a drain on creative energies. Fans demand to be catered to, and it creates needless feelings of obligation on the part of the writers. I'm not opposed to their inclusion; but I think they've become too big a focus for a portion of the BioWare fan base. Knowing how much some vocal fans are invested in these arcs, I think it's very difficult for BioWare to step away from them. I truly believe that some parts of the audience would not buy a game that didn't have romance arcs. Here's an interesting take from David Gaider, in the post-DA2 days, along with a link to my (secondhand) source. It's a quote of a quote, but it's accurate to the best of my knowledge. His feelings largely align with my own. (The specific question he was addressing was in regard to whether all characters should be "player-sexual". That's tangential to the focus of my post.) " Actually, I would not.
Surprising? Perhaps. If we had more resources, I suppose I wouldn’t mind allowing the player to try romancing every follower, but to allow them to successfully do so? No, I can’t say that appeals to me very much for two main reasons:
1) Romances are a side show, not the main game. Yes, some people like them a lot, and I have absolutely no beef with them doing so. In fact, it’s very gratifying. While I suppose a game could be made where the romantic plot takes a level of importance equal to that of the critical path, that has never been the case with the games BioWare makes. These plots are tertiary, optional content… something to add to your enjoyment, and add to your level of emotional investment in the characters… and that seems to get forgotten when people discuss it at length.
Such is the case whenever any piece of content gets discussed online. Under a microscope, whatever you’re discussing seems like all there is… and thus is clearly the most important thing ever. I cannot do that. I always have to keep my eye on the bigger picture, and there is an entire rest of the game that needs to be contended with… which includes a lot of elements that have much more pertinence to the game than who someone does or doesn’t get to have sex with. Romances are a nice extra, and naturally we’re always going to struggle with how to do them right, but they’re well down the list on things I need to concern myself with. I could, in fact, happily have a game without any romances at all… or spend an equal amount of time developing relationships with followers that are non-romantic.
Occasionally the focus on romances reaches such a fever pitch that idea seems rather attractive, actually. But only occasionally. [...]" Source: www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19213First of all, this post is pretty much all there needs to be said about the resource angle. But I also want to point out something different here: It's a question of style and genre, whether you want detailed sex scenes or not. In the case of ME, I think just hinting at things is the most genre appropriate way to handle it. ME1 for example did a good job with e.g. the Liara romance. We see enough to know what's going on but therre is no explicit scene there and we fade out quickly, to only get the infamous "You were incredible" line. That's the kind of thing you'd expect to happen in any SciFi movie or show. On the other hand, the fairly explicit scene with Jaal got me cringing, and not just because of Jaals body but mainly because I felt that this was just there for the alleged gamer demographic. People cry pandering when they get a throw away line from a trans-sexual character in a side quest but IMO, this is much more inapropriate pandering by far as it breaks the genre quite a bit. Sure, I could have picked the "no sex" option but that's not how I wanted to roleplay that specific Ryder character (and to be completely fair, I did want to see how they handled it this time around). The point is not that we can opt out, the point is that even the sex scenes adhere to the general fault of this game where different aspects feel like they were included more for their own sake, rather than in concert with an overall design theme or vision for the game in its entirety. That's what bothers me most about the sex scenes, much more than any implications on resources or how much flesh is shown or whatever.
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Post by unwanted on May 23, 2017 19:54:12 GMT
Yes, they are tacky, meant only for teenagers armed with a bottle of hand cream and a old sock.
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wright1978
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Post by wright1978 on May 23, 2017 19:55:57 GMT
I really don't care about sex scenes. I'm a much bigger fan of lots of dialogue and certain lines that are "colored up" that makes the romance apparent. This, but tbh, there are only two detailed sex scenes in Andromeda, the one I saw was skippable, so I can't say it has any impact at all. Personally, I'd prefer better kissing/flirting scenes during the actions in the game quests. Reyes romance was perfect for me in what it showed and when. Well I liked both peebee's scenes the explicit and the less explicit zero gee one. Had great impact to me and loved the fact presentation of a very sexual relationship was option.
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Gilsa
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Post by Gilsa on May 23, 2017 20:01:49 GMT
If explicit scenes are available for every love interest and every romance has the option for a non-explicit alternative then I would say they I'm fine with them. Just don't arbitrarily give explicit scenes to some love interest while others cut to black, or force explicit scenes on some romances while others can be avoided. Imbalance is the kind worst offense a developer can make here. Exactly my thoughts. Put in the same effort for all. Fade to black, explicit, whatever. Make it equal. Also, I prefer to play a dwarf. There are generally zero fucks given for their scenes (with the exception of Iron Bull -- I know they worked very hard on those) and it's harder to engage with the fandom when other races have better animations while we're facepalming through ours.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 20:04:20 GMT
If explicit scenes are available for every love interest and every romance has the option for a non-explicit alternative then I would say they I'm fine with them. Just don't arbitrarily give explicit scenes to some love interest while others cut to black, or force explicit scenes on some romances while others can be avoided. Imbalance is the kind worst offense a developer can make here. Exactly my thoughts. Put in the same effort for all. Fade to black, explicit, whatever. Make it equal. Also, I prefer to play a dwarf. There are generally zero fucks given for their scenes (with the exception of Iron Bull -- I know they worked very hard on those) and it's harder to engage with the fandom when other races have better animations while we're facepalming through ours. Mass Effect only have one body model for Ryder, so that's a plus vs multiple body models games.
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Post by cooldude on May 23, 2017 20:11:44 GMT
I don't care.
I'm old enough now where I don't feel like I need to see two characters on screen have sex to know they have sex. I can see they are romantically involved, and can make that deduction. In my opinion, I don't think sex scenes do much for the story, because, what did a three minute orgy scene in Spartacus do for the story in the show? I know that's a television show, but the point is still valid.
But, like I said, I don't care. If Bioware wants to put them in, ok then.
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Dr Obfuscate
Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem
Origin: correctamundo1
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Post by correctamundo on May 23, 2017 20:31:58 GMT
No they're not. Properly used (and BW are generally good at it imo) they strengthen the dramaturgy of a story. So far I have played through Liams and Peebees romantic stories and both have been very good. One of them naked. And that wass very fitting imo. And they both gave much to flesh out Ryders character.
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zaeedisking
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Post by zaeedisking on May 23, 2017 20:46:25 GMT
If you're going to have romantic content than either make it shine or don't bother adding it at all. BioWare romances have always been hit or miss depending on the character you're romancing (generally speaking the quality of writing for said character). As someone mentioned above it's about balance so if you have 3 romances in a game... trying to cater to as many people as possible and only 1 of them is well crafted? There's gonna be blowback from the community of those who care about romantic content and was of the 2 romances who received less attention.
Beating on a dead horse here but quality over quantity. As for da sex... well again if it's well done and lives up to the quality of the narrative than all the better. (cause who doesn't like getting randy with their partner?!)
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Post by Element Zero on May 23, 2017 22:22:41 GMT
I wonder how I'd feel if I had zero experience with the BSN fandom? In that case, I'd likely think, "That was a bit excessive, but whatever" after watching some of their scenes. A few would still be very cringy. Overall, though, I think part of my distaste has been shaped by the creepy BSN community, rather than the scenes. I see months of wailing and campaigning pay off with exactly what they'd wanted, and I think, "Wow, that person could've been working on something else; something less creepy." The BSN has definitely helped shape my opinion; and I suspect that's true of others.
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Post by kalasaurus on May 23, 2017 22:48:07 GMT
First of all, this post is pretty much all there needs to be said about the resource angle. But I also want to point out something different here: It's a question of style and genre, whether you want detailed sex scenes or not. In the case of ME, I think just hinting at things is the most genre appropriate way to handle it. ME1 for example did a good job with e.g. the Liara romance. We see enough to know what's going on but therre is no explicit scene there and we fade out quickly, to only get the infamous "You were incredible" line. That's the kind of thing you'd expect to happen in any SciFi movie or show. On the other hand, the fairly explicit scene with Jaal got me cringing, and not just because of Jaals body but mainly because I felt that this was just there for the alleged gamer demographic. People cry pandering when they get a throw away line from a trans-sexual character in a side quest but IMO, this is much more inapropriate pandering by far as it breaks the genre quite a bit. Sure, I could have picked the "no sex" option but that's not how I wanted to roleplay that specific Ryder character (and to be completely fair, I did want to see how they handled it this time around). The point is not that we can opt out, the point is that even the sex scenes adhere to the general fault of this game where different aspects feel like they were included more for their own sake, rather than in concert with an overall design theme or vision for the game in its entirety. That's what bothers me most about the sex scenes, much more than any implications on resources or how much flesh is shown or whatever. Agreed, and well said. In Jaal's scene, I would have been much happier with a fade to black after their hug in the water and then some kind of pillow talk afterwards (which really added to Cora's). No, instead we got graphic alien sex because... reasons. I happily picked Garrus as my Shepard's canon romance because of their emotional connection more than any "sex appeal". (Most) people pick the non-humanoid alien romances for their personality. And on the topic of how graphic nudity is less acceptable than graphic violence, not everyone really feels that way, either. I can't stomach graphic violence in movies or video games (I usually look away). I don't mind first person shooter kind of stuff, but long drawn out torture or people getting their limbs hacked off is a bit much for me. I didn't like it in GTAV (at least it was a short scene), and I won't play games like Dead Space or watch movies like Saw, either. Call me a wimp, but I do agree that some things are better left to the imagination.
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Post by Furisco on May 24, 2017 0:12:46 GMT
Imagine not playing a game because you can't romance a couple of polygons.
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Cyan_Griffonclaw
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Uncle Cyan
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on May 24, 2017 3:03:39 GMT
For me, fade-to-black would be enough. Let the player imagine what happens. I concur.
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