Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 25, 2017 2:06:54 GMT
It's telling that gamers call whatever they don't like a waste of resources and development, wen not everyone shares their own tastes. Was this: worth it for this:
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Post by zipzap2000 on May 25, 2017 2:14:13 GMT
We can't all be lebanese dudes.
There wouldnt be any females left.
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Post by Furisco on May 25, 2017 2:51:51 GMT
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Post by decafhigh on May 25, 2017 3:22:55 GMT
Was this: worth it for this: Would not having the later have fixed the former? I rather doubt it. We've heard from various sources the animation issues weren't due to anything other than BW upper management. Now I suppose you can question the validity of those reports but even if they aren't accurate we still don't know that cutting the romance scenes would have actually fixed anything else. The game was simply launched in a very unpolished state. Animations (facial or otherwise), cut scene bugs (multiple Dracks in the kitchen, had conversations that warped me around the Tempest, even had one where Scott got warped outside the Tempest while continuing to talk to Vetra), quest bugs, gameplay bugs, UI bugs, MP bugs. I don't think laying the blame for any particular issue at the feet of the romance scenes is really fair.
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Post by wright1978 on May 25, 2017 7:14:53 GMT
I thought the scenes in MEA were well done. For BW, making games that focus so strongly on characters and their interactions and relationships it would be more weird if we didn't have romances and if those romances didn't lead to sex. Having intimate scenes with the characters is a natural part of the experience. I don't think anyone wants, you know full interactive quicktime events or anything, but just having fade to blacks would(and does) feel underwhelming. I wouldn't bet money on that... And fade-to-black is awesome. The scene can be as chaste or as kinky as your imagination will let it be. with no complaints that it's too ANYTHING. Fade to black is garbage. They shouldn't do any game scene by that logic as the player can clearly imagine different dialogue between characters, different combat etc. That would eliminate complaints too. Director Addison wouldn't suffer any animation problems if she was purely imaginary. In reality people might complain if there were no game scenes in their games just as people who want to see the sexual element of the relationships conveyed would complain if they gutted them using cheap fade to black tactics.
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Post by pessimistpanda on May 25, 2017 7:45:11 GMT
I'm perfectly satisfied with a fade to black, and I have never, in any book film or video game, seen a sex scene that advances character or plot in any meaningful way.
But as other posters have said, BioWare games are also full of mindless fetch quests and points of no interest. If anything is going to be cut, it should be those.
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Post by DoctorFox on May 25, 2017 12:40:34 GMT
More detailed sex scenes please. Porn is awesome! Love making is awesome! Go ahead and lie to me pretend you don't agree
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Post by Iakus on May 25, 2017 12:48:50 GMT
I wouldn't bet money on that... And fade-to-black is awesome. The scene can be as chaste or as kinky as your imagination will let it be. with no complaints that it's too ANYTHING. Fade to black is garbage. They shouldn't do any game scene by that logic as the player can clearly imagine different dialogue between characters, different combat etc. That would eliminate complaints too. Director Addison wouldn't suffer any animation problems if she was purely imaginary. In reality people might complain if there were no game scenes in their games just as people who want to see the sexual element of the relationships conveyed would complain if they gutted them using cheap fade to black tactics. reducio ad absurdum
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Post by jclosed on May 25, 2017 13:55:35 GMT
No.
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Post by alanc9 on May 25, 2017 14:27:55 GMT
I'm perfectly satisfied with a fade to black, and I have never, in any book film or video game, seen a sex scene that advances character or plot in any meaningful way. This probably has more to do with what you've watched. OTOH, I can't think of too many cases where the scene couldn't have been written around if the creators had considered fade-to-black desirable. There are a few exceptions, though; in some episodes of Girls all the comedy payoff from a setup comes in one of her trademark bad sex scenes, so you'd have to lose the whole sequence. No real relevance to gaming, at least in this genre. Romance or no, a Bio game isn't going to be about relationships in any way that would ever make such a scene necessary.
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Post by Vortex13 on May 25, 2017 15:10:13 GMT
I wouldn't have given any thought to the romance portion of the games, if it wasn't becoming more and more obvious with each subsequent title that said romance content was beginning to have a negative impact on the other elements of the product, specifically those of general world building and non-human elements. Sure, you can't point to a direct causality of events that unequivocally proves this point, but just compare the amount of romance specific content versus the setting up of the universe as varied and containing of multiple perspectives (many of them non-human/alien in nature) in the first entries of the two major franchises, and then in the latest offerings.
In DA:O/A & ME 1 You had: werewolves, sylvan, awakened, spirits, demons, Mabari, dragons, the Rachni, the Thorian, the Hanar, the Elcor, the Geth, etc. all various facets of the game world that offered a different take on things, or helped diversify the setting. Along side them, you had some minor romance content, optional paths the player could take if he/she desired.
Now flash forward to DA:I & ME:A and werewolves, sylvan, and awakened are gone with spirits, demons, Mabari, and dragons being reduced to mindless monsters for the most part. The Rachni, the Thorian, the Hanar, the Elcor, and the Geth nowhere to be seen and nothing even remotely approaching the 'alien' perspective they brought being substituted in their place. The worlds for both universes were rendered more flat. Rather than being this fantastical place; were us and our way of thinking or doing things was just a small part of a much, much larger whole; it is instead replaced with a re-skinned brand of modern day Earth (complete with current social/political issues), albeit with a massive infestation of mindless beasts to kill for loot and experience. But hey, you can chat up with your romance option several times, or have casual flings with them, or walk through a garden holding hands now.
Now I am not saying that the developers intentionally decided that they wanted to strip down the nuance of the older games just for the sake of more naked pixels on the screen, but one can't help but notice the shift in priorities as each franchise moved forward, nor can you discount the that, by and large, out of all the other facets of the game, the 'alien' and world building themes took a hit, while everything else remained roughly the same; save for the romance content, which has only increased in size and scope.
To use a rather hasty metaphor: It's like going to a Star Trek convention, and while it wasn't the best portion of the event, there was this dedicated forum for discussing those strange things in the universe that were inherently different human norms; things that weren't just about humans wearing pointy ears, or humans with rubber prosthetics on their foreheads. But then, over subsequent conventions, that portion of the gathering got smaller and more and more underfunded, all while that "Which Starfleet officer do you find most attractive?" contest began to take up more and more convention-floor space; eventually butting into and taking over the spot once reserved for those non-human discussions.
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Post by auu on May 25, 2017 15:17:13 GMT
I think DAI had the best scenes. They were all fulfilling. That's all they need to be. I know fulfilling is subjective, but there was a quality to all of them where they felt pretty even without simply being c/p like in Origins or Mass Effect 1.
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Post by alanc9 on May 25, 2017 16:38:02 GMT
Now flash forward to DA:I & ME:A and werewolves, sylvan, and awakened are gone with spirits, demons, Mabari, and dragons being reduced to mindless monsters for the most part. The Rachni, the Thorian, the Hanar, the Elcor, and the Geth nowhere to be seen and nothing even remotely approaching the 'alien' perspective they brought being substituted in their place. The worlds for both universes were rendered more flat. Rather than being this fantastical place; were us and our way of thinking or doing things was just a small part of a much, much larger whole; it is instead replaced with a re-skinned brand of modern day Earth (complete with current social/political issues), albeit with a massive infestation of mindless beasts to kill for loot and experience. But hey, you can chat up with your romance option several times, or have casual flings with them, or walk through a garden holding hands now. There are some problems with this argument. WRT DA, sylvans are typically nonsapient, mabari, spirits and demons are intelligent as they ever were, there's no evidence that dragons ever were intelligent as we understand intelligence, and there never was any werewolf culture in the first place, just one area with the curse. (Presumably there are or have been other such cursed places, but they wouldn't be the same beyond the fact of lycanthropy.) And the qunari are far better developed in precisely the terms you're talking about ; IB will engage on these topics in a way Sten simply refused to. You've got a better case for ME. However, note that this was mostly an illusion in the trilogy anyway.
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Post by Vortex13 on May 25, 2017 17:08:21 GMT
Now flash forward to DA:I & ME:A and werewolves, sylvan, and awakened are gone with spirits, demons, Mabari, and dragons being reduced to mindless monsters for the most part. The Rachni, the Thorian, the Hanar, the Elcor, and the Geth nowhere to be seen and nothing even remotely approaching the 'alien' perspective they brought being substituted in their place. The worlds for both universes were rendered more flat. Rather than being this fantastical place; were us and our way of thinking or doing things was just a small part of a much, much larger whole; it is instead replaced with a re-skinned brand of modern day Earth (complete with current social/political issues), albeit with a massive infestation of mindless beasts to kill for loot and experience. But hey, you can chat up with your romance option several times, or have casual flings with them, or walk through a garden holding hands now. There are some problems with this argument. WRT DA, sylvans are typically nonsapient, mabari, spirits and demons are intelligent as they ever were, there's no evidence that dragons ever were intelligent as we understand intelligence, and there never was any werewolf culture in the first place, just one area with the curse. (Presumably there are or have been other such cursed places, but they wouldn't be the same beyond the fact of lycanthropy.) And the qunari are far better developed in precisely the terms you're talking about ; IB will engage on these topics in a way Sten simply refused to. You've got a better case for ME. However, note that this was mostly an illusion in the trilogy anyway. Even if Sylvans or werewolves weren't typically seen as how they were depicted in DA:O the game still took time to point out these abnormalities. For demons and spirits, they had an obvious reduction in depicted intelligence from the first and third titles. There are numerous encounters in Origins the allow the player to interact with demons of anger, desire, sloth, and pride. Likewise the player can encounter spirits of justice, compassion, and victory. In both examples of interaction, the player is exposed to a sentient being with it's own wants and needs, albeit based around a singular concept; quite foreign in depiction. In Inquisition all of that nuance is gone, there's no talking with any fade creature outside of two examples;one of which is more human than spirit and the other is a used car salesman with three lines to say. Now while it's true that the Mabari haven't really been shown to be otherwise intelligent outside of Barkspawn, I would still take a deception of one near-human level intelligent dog over a veritable sea of mindless 'not-wolves' that we encounter in the latest title. And dragons were shown to be smarter or at least more cunning in Origins compared to Inquisition, the one guarding the sacred ashes was smart enough to not attack and eat the cult that worshiped her as they brought both protection and food; she even possessed enough capability to allow for said cult to kill off select members of her brood for the sheltering of the rest. Inquisition dragons on the other hand are just bears with wings and a breath weapon. As for whether the depiction of 'alien' aliens was an illusion of the Mass Effect trilogy or not, the game still took time to make mention of these elements. Which meant that the decline of said elements and the rise of more romance points can clearly be seen as causalities of shifting developer design priorities if not as a direct result of shifting resources from one topic to the other.
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Post by griffith82 on May 25, 2017 18:24:10 GMT
I thought the scenes in MEA were well done. For BW, making games that focus so strongly on characters and their interactions and relationships it would be more weird if we didn't have romances and if those romances didn't lead to sex. Having intimate scenes with the characters is a natural part of the experience. I don't think anyone wants, you know full interactive quicktime events or anything, but just having fade to blacks would(and does) feel underwhelming. I remember playing KOTOR and romancing say Bastilla just to get funny sounds and a black screen?! I was so pissed.
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Post by Iakus on May 25, 2017 18:52:54 GMT
I thought the scenes in MEA were well done. For BW, making games that focus so strongly on characters and their interactions and relationships it would be more weird if we didn't have romances and if those romances didn't lead to sex. Having intimate scenes with the characters is a natural part of the experience. I don't think anyone wants, you know full interactive quicktime events or anything, but just having fade to blacks would(and does) feel underwhelming. I remember playing KOTOR and romancing say Bastilla just to get funny sounds and a black screen?! I was so pissed. HK? Is that you? "Mockery: Oh, Master, I love you, but I hate all you stand for! But I think we should go press our slimy, mucus-covered lips together in the cargo hold!"
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 25, 2017 19:01:45 GMT
I thought the scenes in MEA were well done. For BW, making games that focus so strongly on characters and their interactions and relationships it would be more weird if we didn't have romances and if those romances didn't lead to sex. Having intimate scenes with the characters is a natural part of the experience. I don't think anyone wants, you know full interactive quicktime events or anything, but just having fade to blacks would(and does) feel underwhelming. People can have romantic relationships with someone that doesn't involve sex, either ever or at least not within the timeframe Bioware games take place in. Just because they don't doesn't make them weird, unnatural, or lesser to those that do.
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Post by shechinah on May 25, 2017 19:05:04 GMT
I remember playing KOTOR and romancing say Bastilla just to get funny sounds and a black screen?! I was so pissed.I'd like to preface my question by saying that I don't mean for it to sound mocking and that I do ask it out of genuine curiousity. My question is: what did you expect? I don't think the character animation were at a place in time where a sex scene would have looked good and not awkward.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 25, 2017 19:06:38 GMT
I remember playing KOTOR and romancing say Bastilla just to get funny sounds and a black screen?! I was so pissed.I'd like to say ahead of my question that I don't mean for it to sound mocking and that I ask it out of genuine curiousity: what did you expect? The reason I'm asking is because I don't think the character animation were at a place in time where a sex scene would have looked good and not awkward. This. The fade to black wasn't even for sex but because at the time they didn't have a kissing animation that worked. So when they kissed, it faded to black and then came back to Bastila saying they shouldn't have done that.
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Post by griffith82 on May 25, 2017 19:09:01 GMT
I remember playing KOTOR and romancing say Bastilla just to get funny sounds and a black screen?! I was so pissed.I'd like to preface my question by saying that I don't mean for it to sound mocking and that I do ask it out of genuine curiousity. My question is: what did you expect? I don't think the character animation were at a place in time where a sex scene would have looked good and not awkward. Well GTA tried lol. Anyway IDK truly as that was the first game of that type that I'd played. Up till then it was games like FF and they aren't really story or character driven.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 19:09:32 GMT
I would like us to consider five things. 1. Quality. 2. Time and resources spent. 3. Overall impact of the scenes themselves. 4. Presentation vs Alternative options such as fade to black. 5. Does it get in the way of story telling and can be a distraction. So basically is the story/the game overall, better, or worse off for having detailed sex scenes. Keeping in mind most people will not romance more than 1-2 LI's (No, not you specifically MOST PEOPLE.) I think the fade to black after a brief scene is the way to go. It allows the story to continue without the romance becoming the cinematic focus towards the final moments. Also frees up time and resources. A mix of both. I'm not really impressed with the romances in general. Back in ME1 it was novel to me and they felt kind of immersive. I liked it for the novelty. Since then, they feel really more on the why bother side. I did a peebee one and was so unimpressed it was actually depressing (almost). I felt like I compromised who my character was in the game out of curiosity. And regretted it for being stuck with an emotional 13 year old. The sex scene, so not worth it to me personally. Reminded me of some kind of real life scenario. But in terms of looking at the romances critically and seeing how they have evolved from game to game, I have to wonder if people really get anything fulfilling out of them. After all, we RP for that feeling of immersion. This game, it feels like some flirts then you have sex. Zero immersion for me because I like that sense of getting to know someone, feeling that connection. It was more like a shitty porn from my perspective. And if that money could go for something better, I would think it would be well worth it. ME1 didn't really show that much more and it was more compelling. I got to know Liara a bit more. Not much. But I felt like I had some conversations with her. I played femshep and felt like Kaidan's was better in that respect since Liara really doesn't give you as many conversations. I know there are people that still enjoy them and I would not want the to lose something they love that they don't get elsewhere. But I have to wonder if even they have noticed how they seem to be written lazier and lazier as time passes for each game we get. For straight women, I feel truly bad. They got some shit-tastic choices this round. Liam who sounds like he has marbles in his mouth and is kind of a crisis in motion and Jaal who, I am sorry to say this, but those chest flaps and those legs, no. Just no. Angara are the most ridiculous looking race I have ever seen. Someone was high when they made that concept. High out of their minds. For sure.
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Post by griffith82 on May 25, 2017 19:10:55 GMT
I'd like to say ahead of my question that I don't mean for it to sound mocking and that I ask it out of genuine curiousity: what did you expect? The reason I'm asking is because I don't think the character animation were at a place in time where a sex scene would have looked good and not awkward. This. The fade to black wasn't even for sex but because at the time they didn't have a kissing animation that worked. So when they kissed, it faded to black and then came back to Bastila saying they shouldn't have done that. Now that I didn't know. But it makes sense because animating more than just simple movements wasn't possible till mid 2000.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 19:20:51 GMT
I've just finished Reyes' romance, and in terms of romantic content shown, that's pretty much what I want. The only thing missing is keeping him in Tartarus afterwards for return flirting, and, preferably unique appearance for the LI.
I liked the scenes because each flirting option felt distinctively like courtship and because all three times you kissed him during the romance was a part of an interesting lively interlude, each in a different setting, and each time with a different mood and movement. It was not embarrassing, the dialogues had a good pace, so did the actions. It also took place more or less in private (or was intentionally public). The sequence showed progression of developing attraction, and conveyed them via how the two characters engaged into kissing.
Reyes as a shadow lord of Kadara was a character that did not depend on Ryder for employement, but cooperated with him or even mislead him making a leap of faith, and offered additional RP options, such as imagining working on Kadara's Vault to make sure Reyes' little domain prospers as a lover's gift. He was also well voiced, and his appearance while not unique was neither off putting, nor so weird you have to get used to it.
All and all, that's the kind of romance I want to see in the future. I would be okay if it gets to the point of motions to take clothes off or a snapshot of skin, but certainly not to the point of jaal. I would prefer the resources to go more to setting up the stage and creating an interesting narrative then actual depiction of what happens if we did not faded to black.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 25, 2017 19:25:02 GMT
This. The fade to black wasn't even for sex but because at the time they didn't have a kissing animation that worked. So when they kissed, it faded to black and then came back to Bastila saying they shouldn't have done that. Now that I didn't know. But it makes sense because animating more than just simple movements wasn't possible till mid 2000. Yeah, even the mod for that scene at the time involved just the camera being far away as their faces nuzzle for a moment. Technology has come a long way in the last decade and a half. Plus I also suspect other reasons other than animations for the romances being toned down compared to other Bioware games, such as maybe Lucasarts not wanting the romances to go that far or because Bioware was aiming for a T rating instead of a M. It's not even rated for Suggestive Themes let alone Sexual Themes or Content.
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Post by The_Smiling_Bandit on May 25, 2017 20:15:21 GMT
I would like us to consider five things. 1. Quality. 2. Time and resources spent. 3. Overall impact of the scenes themselves. 4. Presentation vs Alternative options such as fade to black. 5. Does it get in the way of story telling and can be a distraction. So basically is the story/the game overall, better, or worse off for having detailed sex scenes. Keeping in mind most people will not romance more than 1-2 LI's (No, not you specifically MOST PEOPLE.) I think the fade to black after a brief scene is the way to go. It allows the story to continue without the romance becoming the cinematic focus towards the final moments. Also frees up time and resources. A mix of both. I'm not really impressed with the romances in general. Back in ME1 it was novel to me and they felt kind of immersive. I liked it for the novelty. Since then, they feel really more on the why bother side. I did a peebee one and was so unimpressed it was actually depressing (almost). I felt like I compromised who my character was in the game out of curiosity. And regretted it for being stuck with an emotional 13 year old. The sex scene, so not worth it to me personally. Reminded me of some kind of real life scenario. But in terms of looking at the romances critically and seeing how they have evolved from game to game, I have to wonder if people really get anything fulfilling out of them. After all, we RP for that feeling of immersion. This game, it feels like some flirts then you have sex. Zero immersion for me because I like that sense of getting to know someone, feeling that connection. It was more like a shitty porn from my perspective. And if that money could go for something better, I would think it would be well worth it. ME1 didn't really show that much more and it was more compelling. I got to know Liara a bit more. Not much. But I felt like I had some conversations with her. I played femshep and felt like Kaidan's was better in that respect since Liara really doesn't give you as many conversations. I know there are people that still enjoy them and I would not want the to lose something they love that they don't get elsewhere. But I have to wonder if even they have noticed how they seem to be written lazier and lazier as time passes for each game we get. For straight women, I feel truly bad. They got some shit-tastic choices this round. Liam who sounds like he has marbles in his mouth and is kind of a crisis in motion and Jaal who, I am sorry to say this, but those chest flaps and those legs, no. Just no. Angara are the most ridiculous looking race I have ever seen. Someone was high when they made that concept. High out of their minds. For sure.So I take it you aren’t fond of the weird looking half-cat, half-fish, half-human people.
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