phantomrachie
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Post by phantomrachie on May 26, 2017 10:39:33 GMT
I agree I don't there is a huge difference between the two games, but I also don't think there is a huge difference between the animations in any of the Mass Effect games. ME3 probably had the most polished though. With the exception of a couple of studios who have made facial animations one of their top priorities, there hasn't been a whole lot of advancement in facial animation in general in the last 10 years. ME1 animations were revolutionary at the time and BioWare has only made incremental improvements since then. glad you enjoyed that. Oh I see - you're one of those people who compare tertiary characters to companions.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 26, 2017 10:45:50 GMT
glad you enjoyed that. Oh I see - you're one of those people who compare tertiary characters to companions. 1. Secondary characters to companions 2. Actual secondary characters in ME1 are animated at least as well as Addison 3. It's been 10 years...
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Post by correctamundo on May 26, 2017 10:47:02 GMT
glad you enjoyed that. Oh I see - you're one of those people who compare tertiary characters to companions. And comparing a fully patched game to something that isn't available any longer. Well, this one is good for a laugh at least.
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Post by correctamundo on May 26, 2017 10:50:17 GMT
Oh I see - you're one of those people who compare tertiary characters to companions. 1. Secondary characters to companions 2. Actual secondary characters in ME1 are animated at least as well as Addison 3. It's been 10 years... No, they're not. Addison is actually well animated. The picture of Addison posted in this thread are not relevant any longer. They went obsolete sometime in march as I recall.
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Post by phantomrachie on May 26, 2017 10:58:08 GMT
Oh I see - you're one of those people who compare tertiary characters to companions. 1. Secondary characters to companions 2. Actual secondary characters in ME1 are animated at least as well as Addison 3. It's been 10 years... 10 years in which, unless a studio specifically focused on facial animations, there hasn't been that much improvement in facial animations. I'm not saying they are the best animations ever. Just that it is not true to say that ME1's were far better and that its also not true to say that HZD were amazing when they were full of visible facial ticks, weird eye movements and off lip syncing.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 26, 2017 11:05:47 GMT
1. Secondary characters to companions 2. Actual secondary characters in ME1 are animated at least as well as Addison 3. It's been 10 years... No, they're not. Addison is actually well animated. The picture of Addison posted in this thread are not relevant any longer. They went obsolete sometime in march as I recall. 1. They didn't have to patch animations in ME1 2. In march they changed eyes and lighting afaik, they've added animations later 3. That's how she looked when I played the game and when animations were trashed in many reviews, so it is relevant to me and others who played it then 4. Her dialogue is still horrible 5. It's been 10 years since ME1 6. MEA had 5 years of development time
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Don't knock the little winds. They're important - for morale.
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Post by correctamundo on May 26, 2017 11:22:32 GMT
No, they're not. Addison is actually well animated. The picture of Addison posted in this thread are not relevant any longer. They went obsolete sometime in march as I recall. 1. They didn't have to patch animations in ME1 2. In march they changed eyes and lighting afaik, they've added animations later 3. That's how she looked when I played the game and when animations were trashed in many reviews, so it is relevant to me and others who played it then 4. Her dialogue is still horrible 5. It's been 10 years since ME1 6. MEA had 5 years of development time
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Post by aglomeracja on May 26, 2017 11:27:25 GMT
1. Secondary characters to companions 2. Actual secondary characters in ME1 are animated at least as well as Addison 3. It's been 10 years... 10 years in which, unless a studio specifically focused on facial animations, there hasn't been that much improvement in facial animations. I'm not saying they are the best animations ever. Just that it is not true to say that ME1's were far better and that its also not true to say that HZD were amazing when they were full of visible facial ticks, weird eye movements and off lip syncing. Nah, they weren't far better in ME1, but they were at least as good and didn't have so many outstanding fuckups. Upon release every character in MEA had those crazy eyes, they smiled when talking about Ryder's dead father, walked like gorillas etc. As for the general improvement in facial animations you constructed a really weird argument. Nothing is ever improved unless the studio will focus on it. Facial animations are improving in practically every game. Making comparisons between MEA and ME1 is ridiculous anyway, try ME2 from 7 years ago: You just won't see a conversation made that well in MEA. Illusive Man is also a secondary character BTW.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 26, 2017 11:36:02 GMT
No, they're not. Addison is actually well animated. The picture of Addison posted in this thread are not relevant any longer. They went obsolete sometime in march as I recall. 1. They didn't have to patch animations in ME1 2. In march they changed eyes and lighting afaik, they've added animations later 3. That's how she looked when I played the game and when animations were trashed in many reviews, so it is relevant to me and others who played it then 4. Her dialogue is still horrible 5. It's been 10 years since ME1 6. MEA had 5 years of development time
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Post by phantomrachie on May 26, 2017 11:59:04 GMT
aglomeracja Didn't have as many outstanding fuck ups. Are you for real? There are 10 years worth of Mass Effect animation fuck ups preserved forever in memes. My argument about facial animations is not weird. I'm trying to point out that some people are comparing apples to oranges when they compare animations. Naughty Dog has made animations one of their top priorities so they are great, but other devs like Bethesda, BioWare, Guerrilla etc have not, so their animations aren't as good. My point is, is that if you compare the animation work of devs who haven't focused on it for the last 10 years, there has been only incremental improvement. And most of MEA's animations are consistent with that incremental improvement. Though it did have that weird eye thing going on with most of the humans. Now perhaps gamers are no longer willing to put up with the lacklustre animation of some devs and expect Naughty Dog quality animations for every game they play. Which would be fine, if such criticism was applied equally rather than ignored for some games and highlighted for others. HZD was used as an example of a game with great facial animations when it has a lot of the same facial animation issues that people criticise MEA for, although some to a lesser degree. And don't get me wrong, I love HZD, but I won't ignore its issues just because I love it like some people are doing.
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Post by decafhigh on May 26, 2017 12:43:43 GMT
HZD was used as an example of a game with great facial animations when it has a lot of the same facial animation issues that people criticise MEA for, although some to a lesser degree. And don't get me wrong, I love HZD, but I won't ignore its issues just because I love it like some people are doing. But we are supposed to ignore it for MEA apparently.
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Post by aglomeracja on May 26, 2017 12:45:14 GMT
aglomeracja Didn't have as many outstanding fuck ups. Are you for real? There are 10 years worth of Mass Effect animation fuck ups preserved forever in memes. My argument about facial animations is not weird. I'm trying to point out that some people are comparing apples to oranges when they compare animations. Naughty Dog has made animations one of their top priorities so they are great, but other devs like Bethesda, BioWare, Guerrilla etc have not, so their animations aren't as good. My point is, is that if you compare the animation work of devs who haven't focused on it for the last 10 years, there has been only incremental improvement. And most of MEA's animations are consistent with that incremental improvement. Though it did have that weird eye thing going on with most of the humans. Now perhaps gamers are no longer willing to put up with the lacklustre animation of some devs and expect Naughty Dog quality animations for every game they play. Which would be fine, if such criticism was applied equally rather than ignored for some games and highlighted for others. HZD was used as an example of a game with great facial animations when it has a lot of the same facial animation issues that people criticise MEA for, although some to a lesser degree. And don't get me wrong, I love HZD, but I won't ignore its issues just because I love it like some people are doing. Animation fuckups in MET were mostly bugs and that's a different thing than major NPC's looking like wax sculptures with whacky eye movement. It's a matter of scale. I don't know if the criticism i applied equally or not. I don't play every game that comes out, I've never seen HZD nor any other Guerilla game and I have no clue why people ever buy anything made by Bethesda. I agree that Bioware never focused on facial animations specifically, they were improving every single aspect of conversations and cut-scenes. Lighting, shadows, camera angles, movement, gestures etc. In MEA camera often doesn't even change to cinematic mode, and when it does, you're likely to see characters just standing in one spot talking to each other with camera focused on their faces. With set up like that facial animations have to be good, because that's everything you're being shown.
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Post by Sharable Horizon on May 26, 2017 13:16:08 GMT
It always amuses me that people who rag on Addison's tired face scene (which has since been patched into oblivion) never compare it to the infamous Sheploo smile. Both are slightly shonky scenes, yet one no longer exists.
Double standards. Thy name is BSN.
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Post by Fen'Harel Faceman on May 26, 2017 13:17:37 GMT
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Post by phantomrachie on May 26, 2017 13:24:43 GMT
HZD was used as an example of a game with great facial animations when it has a lot of the same facial animation issues that people criticise MEA for, although some to a lesser degree. And don't get me wrong, I love HZD, but I won't ignore its issues just because I love it like some people are doing. But we are supposed to ignore it for MEA apparently. I never said ignore them. Point them out & criticise them all you like. As people have been doing. I was just putting some perspective around some of the complaints that seem like people expected them to be Naughty Dog level quality and calling out a poster for misrepresenting the quality of the facial animation in HZD. For the record, the animations in neither of these games bothered me too much, but I completely understand why they would, within reason. Consistency is the key here, not outright rage for one game and ignoring the same issues in another.
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Post by decafhigh on May 26, 2017 14:11:36 GMT
But we are supposed to ignore it for MEA apparently. I never said ignore them. Point them out & criticise them all you like. As people have been doing. I was just putting some perspective around some of the complaints that seem like people expected them to be Naughty Dog level quality and calling out a poster for misrepresenting the quality of the facial animation in HZD. For the record, the animations in neither of these games bothered me too much, but I completely understand why they would, within reason. Consistency is the key here, not outright rage for one game and ignoring the same issues in another. Well, I haven't played any of those other games. Whether the animations in those games are good or bad is irrelevant to MEA. MEA launched with laughably bad animation issues. It wasn't limited to just My Face is Tired Addison. The issue was widespread and wasn't even limited to facial animations as many of the walk and idle animations were, and many still are, just bad. This is all before we even get to things that are just plain bugged and not working as intended. MEA deserved the criticism if got over the state of the game at launch.
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Post by jclosed on May 26, 2017 14:20:34 GMT
Indeed people have blown that Addison animation (that's long gone by now) completely out of proportion.
For example - in Fallout 4 there are facial animations that will give you acute nightmares. I only have to point out an certain old lady that warns you veerry sloooowlyyy for "something...... angry". That one is about a thousand times worse than those Addison glitches. Still - Fallout 4 (and their developers) get away with it. Why? I have no idea.. Really. And there are many more in that game (think about some weird faces Piper shows you for instance).
So - Indeed... Outrage for only a few seconds in a 60H+ during game, and other games that have the same issues or much worse get away with it. Very selective...
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phantomrachie
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by phantomrachie on May 26, 2017 14:39:14 GMT
I never said ignore them. Point them out & criticise them all you like. As people have been doing. I was just putting some perspective around some of the complaints that seem like people expected them to be Naughty Dog level quality and calling out a poster for misrepresenting the quality of the facial animation in HZD. For the record, the animations in neither of these games bothered me too much, but I completely understand why they would, within reason. Consistency is the key here, not outright rage for one game and ignoring the same issues in another. Well, I haven't played any of those other games. Whether the animations in those games are good or bad is irrelevant to MEA. MEA launched with laughably bad animation issues. It wasn't limited to just My Face is Tired Addison. The issue was widespread and wasn't even limited to facial animations as many of the walk and idle animations were, and many still are, just bad. This is all before we even get to things that are just plain bugged and not working as intended. MEA deserved the criticism if got over the state of the game at launch. They are relevant to this specific conversation which started when someone compared MEA to HZD and misrepresented HZD.
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Post by ozzie on May 26, 2017 14:43:41 GMT
glad you enjoyed that. Oh I see - you're one of those people who compare tertiary characters to companions. Sorry tertiary characters as a justification aint going to cut it. Addison's scene was part of the opening story, not some random filler/comic relief.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 26, 2017 14:46:01 GMT
Ah good old Conrad, BioWare's greatest NPC.
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Post by ozzie on May 26, 2017 14:48:10 GMT
Deserves his own spin off game really.
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Post by KaiserShep on May 26, 2017 14:50:44 GMT
I agree I don't there is a huge difference between the two games, but I also don't think there is a huge difference between the animations in any of the Mass Effect games. ME3 probably had the most polished though. With the exception of a couple of studios who have made facial animations one of their top priorities, there hasn't been a whole lot of advancement in facial animation in general in the last 10 years. ME1 animations were revolutionary at the time and BioWare has only made incremental improvements since then. glad you enjoyed that. The thing that makes me saddest about this is the loss of Ashley's simple look. I feel like ME3 did its damnedest to destroy her.
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Post by goishen on May 26, 2017 14:54:07 GMT
Indeed people have blown that Addison animation (that's long gone by now) completely out of proportion. For example - in Fallout 4 there are facial animations that will give you acute nightmares. I only have to point out an certain old lady that warns you veerry sloooowlyyy for "something...... angry". That one is about a thousand times worse than those Addison glitches. Still - Fallout 4 (and their developers) get away with it. Why? I have no idea.. Really. And there are many more in that game (think about some weird faces Piper shows you for instance). So - Indeed... Outrage for only a few seconds in a 60H+ during game, and other games that have the same issues or much worse get away with it. Very selective... Right, an old lady who's on drugs. How do you expect an old chicken head to talk to you? I mean. Jesus. I don't find her creepy at all. I'm just saying to her, "Jesus, what color crack are you smoking?" It's like you've been desensitized to crack heads, or perhaps not even encountered them at all. I'm wondering what kind'a world you live in, because I wanna live there. Whereby you have no problems and the problems of others you just call "creepy".
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Post by vilegrim on May 26, 2017 14:58:50 GMT
Well said. You are feeling what most people who played the game have felt. In the long run, I think that could turn up as a good thing. All Bioware needs to do now is deliver kickass DLC's (akin to DAI Trespasser) and the buzz for the game will start over, and all those millions who scorned the game and hated without playing will feel compelled to give it a try. In the end, life run of Andromeda will be stellar and sales will guarantee sequels. But for that, we need Bioware to do great DLCs. I'm hopeful. They know what's at stake after the bad launch the game had. I decided to buy the game and give it a chance...my god I wish I hadn't. Seriously. To quote myself from another thread: I finished, god damn it. Waste of money, as I should have known it would be, the last time BW released a game I enjoyed without reservation was 2010, so their is that. I didn't like DA:I, the ME3 ending means that I didn't play any ME game for over a year after. The bugs weren't game breaking, but any RPG where I find myself skipping dialogue because I just don't CARE has major issues, Ryder's responses and dialogue felt like flavours of agreement, even more so than the Inq's did in DA:I, the lack of agency I felt within the story was infuriating, usually when you are playing a character you can only 'flavour' (for instance Shephard, or Geralt.) they have a strong personality for you to latch onto, a hook to grab your attention, Ryder doesn't she has the worst parts of a blank slate PC (no strong backstory, NPCs react in a 'generic' way so that the character always fits) And a preset PC (limited options in dialogue, railroading) without the upsides of either, look Shep could either be an idealist or a pragmatist (sometimes they messed up and became 'saint or psychopath' but on the main it worked), The Warden on the other hand was defined by the player, an amoral mercenary, social Darwinist, an idealistic patriot, or some combination, and both approaches WORKED. But with Ryder you just ARE, a bit of a boy scout, shockingly naive at times, and incapable of leading, or showing a spine, you just bumble along allowing people to insult you, belittle you and ignore you, without ever seeming to react, cracking flat jokes to companions that I really couldn't care about (and that looked terrible, which didn't help) and opposing a villain that had the same issues as that guy out of DA:I, a dude with big shoulders and a freaky face who never really feels threatening, Sovereign was terrifying, Logain I despised, the ArchDemon was a force of nature and hate, this walking WMD coming to end the world, Jon Irenicus was such a good villain that 20 years later I still remember his name, but now, now we have 'weird alien nazi opponent number 2762 taken from a b grade Sci Fi movie of the week, and I found nothing to hate or fear. We also to add insult to injury, had what has historically been a horrific act and ideology, Colonialism, dressed up as a kumbaya tour of happy alien friends..I mean what? We turn up to steal planets that suit us..with out war ships? The beings that live on those worlds are friends with us because..why? BW dress up a genocidal activity, one that to actually work has to be genocidal, and shatter the resistance of any 'natives' as a good and noble thing, and take out the horror implicit in it. Seriously what's next, a BW railway simulator taking people to the death camps? THAT is what I disliked about this game, it took a barbaric act and gave it to a boy scout, an act that could, and should, have been an exploration of how far you are willing to go to survive, how much humanity the last (as far as they know) of the Council Races are willing to lose to endure, that took the decisions in the ME series about the life and death of species, a decision you could make in the first freaking game, and asks it again, as the centre of a story, not as a quandary on the side during a greater mission, that puts you face to face with the fate of a desperate band of survivors, and YES DAMMIT this does sound like Battle Star Galatica: The Plan: ME Edition, that is what we could have had here, instead we got Galatica 1980
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abaris
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by abaris on May 26, 2017 15:03:12 GMT
Deserves his own spin off game really. In a sense he's in the game. Adventurous guy looking like an idiot, lurking right behind the Bradley salt pillar at the shuttle bay of Prodromos. If you tell him what to do, he gets into all kinds of trouble all over the map, where you can save him. Definetely a Conrad reference.
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