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Post by sageoflife on Jun 6, 2017 20:35:04 GMT
Set sexualities is definitely better when it's done right, but after the fiasco with Andromeda, I'm a long way from trusting them to do it right.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 20:37:56 GMT
Set sexualities is definitely better when it's done right, but after the fiasco with Andromeda, I'm a long way from trusting them to do it right. As long as they don't change anything major after release, it shall be fine
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Post by Lazarillo on Jun 6, 2017 20:40:33 GMT
I am deathly tired of:
"I want to play a Dwarf, but he won't be able to marry Anora." "If you are an elf, King Alistair is gonna dump you if you don't harden him" "But if you are NOT an elf, Solas won't romance you." "I want to play a female Qunari, but then I won't be able to romance Dorian and/or Solas" "I like male Ryder more, but I wanted to romance Liam..."
...
It's a video-game, I just want a happy run without preliminary study of the romanced matrix and all the sub-clauses. I don't want to re-roll after 12 hours of Hinterlands to prove that I am a woman enough to re-roll a male to get my man.
I understand this. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. It's just to me, it's contradictory to the point of the play experience. If I say "I want to play a Dwarf", it's because I want to see the storyline from a Dwarf perspective. If I could get every option, or romance, or whatever, playing any race or gender, then there's no point in playing different races or genders. Basically, that approach reduces race and sex to purely cosmetic options. That's not a bad thing per se (in some ways, that's sort of what I want from DA4 too, if for somewhat different reasons, so it'd be hypocritical of me to talk it down completely), but I think having story and character-appropriate limits based on "who you are" helps to make the player characters more compelling.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 20:48:26 GMT
I am deathly tired of:
"I want to play a Dwarf, but he won't be able to marry Anora." "If you are an elf, King Alistair is gonna dump you if you don't harden him" "But if you are NOT an elf, Solas won't romance you." "I want to play a female Qunari, but then I won't be able to romance Dorian and/or Solas" "I like male Ryder more, but I wanted to romance Liam..."
...
It's a video-game, I just want a happy run without preliminary study of the romanced matrix and all the sub-clauses. I don't want to re-roll after 12 hours of Hinterlands to prove that I am a woman enough to re-roll a male to get my man.
I understand this. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. It's just to me, it's contradictory to the point of the play experience. If I say "I want to play a Dwarf", it's because I want to see the storyline from a Dwarf perspective. If I could get every option, or romance, or whatever, playing any race or gender, then there's no point in playing different races or genders. Basically, that approach reduces race and sex to purely cosmetic options. That's not a bad thing per se (in some ways, that's sort of what I want from DA4 too, if for somewhat different reasons, so it'd be hypocritical of me to talk it down completely), but I think having story and character-appropriate limits based on "who you are" helps to make the player characters more compelling. To me it leads to not playing the game. Because I cannot do a PT that I like, and eventually I either do not start or abandon the game.
Hence, 2 PTs of DA2 with Awakening 1 of Origins (still upset at my romantic ending), run through all Origins, but don't want to continue because can't make different choices/see different enough endings if I don't play a Human 1 abandoned PT of Inquisition 12 hours in: did not have a romance option I have liked, loved my character, but not enough to play w/o a romance 1 completed run of Inquisition; 2nd abandoned run of Inquisition 14 hours in: liked romance Okay'ish, but do not like playing this race character
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2017 20:51:38 GMT
Related, but not exactly the original question:
I like racial gating that makes sense, like Solas and the Dalish ( I think Dorian and Jose should have been moderately race gated as well, to be honest) and the Alistair marriage being locked to a human noble. These things make sense in the universe as it is written, and gives more bite to being the minority.
I finished Dwarf Commoner Origin last night and was shocked to see a "And I'll be queen at his side" even come up as an option and it made me laugh. How oblivious would I have had to be to the politics of not only my own race but the race of the humans to even suggest that idea? Considering they bent lore to make Viv a Divine option, however, Alistiar should have been allowed to marry the Noble Mage Origin, Amell.
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Post by raikas on Jun 6, 2017 20:52:51 GMT
Andromeda team changed Jaal's sexual preferences. I take it all back I'm OK with both of these choices. I don't want to see something like that though To be fair, what they really changed is his gender-gating. Jaal didn't originally state a preference, so there wasn't one to change. If they'd done the same thing to Liam that would be changing preferences since he states that he's not into guys, but with Jaal it's changing a game option rather than a character trait.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 20:59:59 GMT
Andromeda team changed Jaal's sexual preferences. I take it all back I'm OK with both of these choices. I don't want to see something like that though To be fair, what they really changed is his gender-gating. Jaal didn't originally state a preference, so there wasn't one to change. If they'd done the same thing to Liam that would be changing preferences since he states that he's not into guys, but with Jaal it's changing a game option rather than a character trait. But it's not the final product, Jaal was into women in the game and changing it feels like a complete fan service (maybe it's not but sure feels like it). It's like taking away a part of character's personality.
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Post by Walter Black on Jun 6, 2017 21:00:49 GMT
So why don't you just want set bisexual characters? Why do you want "playersexual" characters whose sexuality changes depending on your PC gender? That's not what I said. I don't care what term is used. What I want is all romances opened to all PCs, and plot-important. I want it to be like DA2, whatever you call it. I don't need a sex resume from each character with at least three references from past lovers. I want him or her to love me back if I love them - or do not, but that would be the same for everyone. I don't want a female Qunari to be punished with less interesting options than a male one. You don't want to be punished romantically for playing particular type, but your approach punishes the writers, who want to create three dimensional characters with believable flaws and personal desires. It punishes other players who want very specific representation, like the Gay Knight In Shining Armor, or the butch lesbian. It also punishes both of them, since all bi characters means less Love Interests to work with.
Despite sounding like I hate the playersexual route, I get why people enjoy it; it's fun and easy, and everyone gets a shot at the available LIs. But neither system is without flaws. Once you dismiss gender and race gating, what's next, religion? A character should never, ever value their faith (or lack thereof) enough to want their significant other to share their beliefs*? Morality**? The Paragon should just accept the players' Ruthless Sociopath, or vice versa? Shouldn't a LI have anything in common with the PC?
*Just because Luke Kristjanson may have done Sera's reaction to Lavellan's faith the wrong way, doesn't mean some else couldn't provide a little more nuance.
**Josephine was the absolute worst in this regard, in my opinion. Being pan or demi-sexual and open to all races and genders, cool. The allegedly moral, diplomatic and devoutly Andrastian who still accepts an utter bastard Inquisitor? Not so much. Choosing Leiana's route in Of Somewhat Fallen Fortune should have cut the player off from Josephine's romance, especially since you explicitly go against her wishes in doing so. But it didn't, because player entitlement .
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Post by raikas on Jun 6, 2017 21:17:18 GMT
To be fair, what they really changed is his gender-gating. Jaal didn't originally state a preference, so there wasn't one to change. If they'd done the same thing to Liam that would be changing preferences since he states that he's not into guys, but with Jaal it's changing a game option rather than a character trait. But it's not the final product, Jaal was into women in the game and changing it feels like a complete fan service (maybe it's not but sure feels like it). It's like taking away a part of character's personality. Heh, I feel like this is the point where I should insert a sarcastic joke here about how none of the characters in MEA have much personality either way! Seriously though, in the game as-shipped, Scott can hit on Liam and Suvi and be turned down (same thing for Sara with Cora and Gil), but pre-patch Scott couldn't flirt with Jaal and so Jaal never specified one way or the other. Obviously opinions will differ, but if a character doesn't state a preference in-game we can only guess. We know he's into women, but we don't (or rather didn't) know one way or the other about men. Look at Jack in ME2/3 - she's gender-gated for mShep, but she also talks about a past relationship with a woman and can flirt with female characters in ME3 (depending on the composition of party guests in the Citidel party), so arguably she's a straight romance option but not a straight character.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 21:23:27 GMT
That's not what I said. I don't care what term is used. What I want is all romances opened to all PCs, and plot-important. I want it to be like DA2, whatever you call it. I don't need a sex resume from each character with at least three references from past lovers. I want him or her to love me back if I love them - or do not, but that would be the same for everyone. I don't want a female Qunari to be punished with less interesting options than a male one. You don't want to be punished romantically for playing particular type, but your approach punishes the writers, who want to create three dimensional characters with believable flaws and personal desires. It punishes other players who want very specific representation, like the Gay Knight In Shining Armor, or the butch lesbian. It also punishes both of them, since all bi characters means less Love Interests to work with.
Despite sounding like I hate the playersexual route, I get why people enjoy it; it's fun and easy, and everyone gets a shot at the available LIs. But neither system is without flaws. Once you dismiss gender and race gating, what's next, religion? A character should never, ever value their faith (or lack thereof) enough to want their significant other to share their beliefs*? Morality**? The Paragon should just accept the players' Ruthless Sociopath, or vice versa? Shouldn't a LI have anything in common with the PC?
*Just because Luke Kristjanson may have done Sera's reaction to Lavellan's faith the wrong way, doesn't mean some else couldn't provide a little more nuance.
**Josephine was the absolute worst in this regard, in my opinion. Being pan or demi-sexual and open to all races and genders, cool. The allegedly moral, diplomatic and devoutly Andrastian who still accepts an utter bastard Inquisitor? Not so much. Choosing Leiana's route in Of Somewhat Fallen Fortune should have cut the player off from Josephine's romance, especially since you explicitly go against her wishes in doing so. But it didn't, because player entitlement .
I want less but better LIs, the LIs that are more like Reyes or Anders, that participate in the story and change the relationships depending on how player does things. I think that DA2 writers created believable characters with flaws and desires, despite them being available to both male and female Hawkes'.
Anders' the best romance they've ever made as far as I am concerned.
I can't see a single spark to be detracted from Dorian's brilliance if I did not have to re-roll a male to romance him. I needed that romance without taking a single flirt as a female PC, just by doing the other conversational options. I don't have some hot gay sex fetish or something. I loved the character, he felt about Tevinter the same way I do about my old country.
I also can't see why Jaal is any less a memorable pompous Angara for calling a male his dearest as well as a female.
As for people of different faith or morality not being able to fall in love, that's not true.
On the other hand, basing the romance-specific decisions on the romance specific actions the character specifically warned you about is fine, because it's a decision the character makes, and it's a part of the drama of the relationship. It's interesting. It is usually made clear in the game itself how it will turn out.
But dodging the romance gate requires meta-gaming and is prohibitive and punishing to the player. I do pay the writers to deliver an RP where I hope to co-create a great story. And I want an exciting romance as a part of it, and it will not be delivered if they are straining to provide as many romances as they did for Inquisition or Andromeda.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2017 21:24:56 GMT
Jaal should have been bisexual already at the moment of the the release. The Andromeda gay opportunity was a shame.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 21:28:48 GMT
Jaal should have been bisexual already at the moment of the the release. The Andromeda gay opportunity was a shame. Honestly, I've liked Gil and Reyes better than Iron Bull and Blackwall to start with.
Now, your M/M options for Jaal, Reyes and Gil beat what a straight non-elven/human female gets in Inquisition thanks to Jaal's bi unlock hands down. In fact it blows it out of the water, and then out of the air.
That's a great example of how a bi romance improves the romantic content of the game.
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2017 21:51:54 GMT
Jaal should have been bisexual already at the moment of the the release. The Andromeda gay opportunity was a shame. Honestly, I've liked Gil and Reyes better than Iron Bull and Blackwall to start with.
Now, your M/M options for Jaal, Reyes and Gil beat what a straight non-elven/human female gets in Inquisition thanks to Jaal's bi unlock hands down. In fact it blows it out of the water, and then out of the air.
That's a great example of how a bi romance improves the romantic content of the game.
I'm glad to hear Jaal is bi. He's the only romance scenes I haven't spoiled myself on, but I dislike Sara so didn't know how I was going to get to try him. Although I have seen his naked chest on a pic somewhere and egads.
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Post by shechinah on Jun 6, 2017 21:56:53 GMT
I'm glad to hear Jaal is bi. He's the only romance scenes I haven't spoiled myself on, but I dislike Sara so didn't know how I was going to get to try him. Although I have seen his naked chest on a pic somewhere and egads.Eh, I like that the alien bodies look alien but then my interest is based solely on personality and not appearance. That's not a slight against you, by the way. That's just me saying that Jaal could have looked like a vorcha and I'd still have romanced him.
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Post by phoray on Jun 6, 2017 21:58:38 GMT
I'm glad to hear Jaal is bi. He's the only romance scenes I haven't spoiled myself on, but I dislike Sara so didn't know how I was going to get to try him. Although I have seen his naked chest on a pic somewhere and egads.Eh, I like that the alien bodies look alien but then my interest is based solely on personality and not appearance. That's not a slight against you, by the way. that's just me saying that Jaal could have looked like a vorcha and I'd still have romanced him. I originally found Thane unattractive but by the end of the romance, found him very hot. With no Context, Jaal looks like Freddie Kruger-- a burn victim with jutting bones. Edit Add: And with clothes on, he looks a bit like a Koala with a monocle. Don't believe me? Look below.
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2017 22:01:42 GMT
Eh, I like that the alien bodies look alien but then my interest is based solely on personality and not appearance. That's not a slight against you, by the way. that's just me saying that Jaal could have looked like a vorcha and I'd still have romanced him. I originally found Thane unattractive but by the end of the romance, found him very hot.With no Context, Jaal looks like Freddie Kruger-- a burn victim with jutting bones. I felt similar toward Fenris at first time, but when I tried his romance, that was very hot and sweet! (Now I always miss me, when Hawke romance Anders, and vice versa...) I like Jaal, but his legs is weird, seems unstable...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 22:08:37 GMT
I found all three Hot to look at, but Fenris & Jaal's romances are not me. Fenris too short, Jaal... well it's too Space regency. But as a mm option it would be totally different from everything else before
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Post by Catilina on Jun 6, 2017 22:15:52 GMT
I found all three Hot to look at, but Fenris & Jaal's romances are not me. Fenris too short, Jaal... well it's too Space regency. But as a mm option it would be totally different from everything else before Fenris pretty hot, now I already see, and I don't feel his romance short. Even in rivalry, he shows how he feel toward Hawke, I like how his trust formed. I'm curious about Jaal romance, I like him.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 6, 2017 23:03:59 GMT
While I have defended both, I have to say set orientations is better. If done right, it has all of the pros of playersexuality with almost none of the cons as well as the pros playersexuality cannot have. So where does set orientation lets me play the character I want and romance the character I want to romance on the same PT? How does it ensure less but better plot-important romances?That's the main pros of the playersexual romances, and set orientations destroy both. Playersexuality destroys that just as much as set sexuality. Those two things are a universal risk when it comes to romances.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:08:00 GMT
So where does set orientation lets me play the character I want and romance the character I want to romance on the same PT? How does it ensure less but better plot-important romances?That's the main pros of the playersexual romances, and set orientations destroy both. Playersexuality destroys that just as much as set sexuality. Those two things are a universal risk when it comes to romances. What? How? If all romances are available to every PC I can pick the romance I want on my PT with the PC I want, instead of having to reroall after meeting the character and finding out s/he won't romance me 'b/c of my gender. That's it. You can't do it with set sexuality, unless they are all set on bi. Which is fine with me. EDIT: the only way set sexuality is gonna work for me if you add change Gender option to the Black Emporium. That keeps the writer's creativity all awesome and good, and gives me the romance I want. But that still does not let me play the PC I want.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 6, 2017 23:10:36 GMT
Playersexuality destroys that just as much as set sexuality. Those two things are a universal risk when it comes to romances. What? How? If all romances are available to every PC I can pick the romance I want on my PT with the PC I want. That's it. You can't do it with set sexuality, unless they are all set on bi. Which is fine with me. Alright, show me where in DA2 where I could have the kind of romance I want? I want nonsexual romances, and yet playersexuality doesn't allow that. Both will have restrictions on the kind of characters and romances people want.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:15:07 GMT
What? How? If all romances are available to every PC I can pick the romance I want on my PT with the PC I want. That's it. You can't do it with set sexuality, unless they are all set on bi. Which is fine with me. Alright, show me where in DA2 where I could have the kind of romance I want? I want nonsexual romances, and yet playersexuality doesn't allow that. Both will have restrictions on the kind of characters and romances people want. That's not a problem with how the romance is gated, i.e. player sexuality, it is a problem with no chaste branch in romance. You actually would have had it on every PC IF Sebastian's romance WAS playersexual. But right now it is only available to a female.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 6, 2017 23:19:49 GMT
Alright, show me where in DA2 where I could have the kind of romance I want? I want nonsexual romances, and yet playersexuality doesn't allow that. Both will have restrictions on the kind of characters and romances people want. That's not a problem with how the romance is gated, i.e. player sexuality, it is a problem with no chaste branch in romance. You actually would have had it on every PC IF Sebastian's romance WAS playersexual. But right now it is only available to a female. With how much resources would be involved, having it be an option would be impossible. Let's look at simple numbers. 4 LIs available to both men and women equal the amount needed for 8 romances. Now adding a non-sexual route doubles that again to 16 which is a ridiculous amount of resources which is why Bioware has never done it(other than SWTOR but those aren't nearly as in-depth as DA and ME romances). Also Sebastian is not a good example to use because he was a DLC you had to pay for(not to mention the game treated the whole thing as a joke). The fact plain and simple is this. As it stands, playersexuality gives me and people like me no options of representation or allowing us to play how we would like to. Set sexuality does. Ergo, in my opinion set sexuality is the better of the two.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 23:24:55 GMT
That's not a problem with how the romance is gated, i.e. player sexuality, it is a problem with no chaste branch in romance. You actually would have had it on every PC IF Sebastian's romance WAS playersexual. But right now it is only available to a female. With how much resources would be involved, having it be an option would be impossible. Let's look at simple numbers. 4 LIs available to both men and women equal the amount needed for 8 romances. Now adding a non-sexual route doubles that again to 16 which is a ridiculous amount of resources which is why Bioware has never done it(other than SWTOR but those aren't nearly as in-depth as DA and ME romances). Also Sebastian is not a good example to use because he was a DLC you had to pay for(not to mention the game treated the whole thing as a joke and something to ridicule). The fact plain and simple is this. As it stands, playersexuality gives me and people like me no options of representation or allowing us to play how we would like to. Set sexuality does. Ergo, in my opinion set sexuality is the better of the two. Nope. Each game just needs four bi romances, each having a chaste branch. Easy enough. Back in the day, Infinity Engine modded romances had an option to refuse the intimacy and it was moved to the player-initiated options, and the flirting sets stayed at the second base level. If player never took it, no biggie. Work around it till the end of the game. Honestly, was far easier to accommodate than two tracks for a bi & gods forbid multiple branches based on the quest resolution.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 6, 2017 23:28:01 GMT
With how much resources would be involved, having it be an option would be impossible. Let's look at simple numbers. 4 LIs available to both men and women equal the amount needed for 8 romances. Now adding a non-sexual route doubles that again to 16 which is a ridiculous amount of resources which is why Bioware has never done it(other than SWTOR but those aren't nearly as in-depth as DA and ME romances). Also Sebastian is not a good example to use because he was a DLC you had to pay for(not to mention the game treated the whole thing as a joke and something to ridicule). The fact plain and simple is this. As it stands, playersexuality gives me and people like me no options of representation or allowing us to play how we would like to. Set sexuality does. Ergo, in my opinion set sexuality is the better of the two. Nope. Each game just needs four bi romances, each having a chaste branch. Easy enough. Back in the day, Infinity Engine modded romances had an option to refuse the intimacy and it was moved to the player-initiated options, and the flirting sets stayed at the second base level. If player never took it, no biggie. Work around it till the end of the game. So writing the equivalent of 16 romances is easy enough? That will never happen. Good for mods. What's your point? Mods can make either system work.
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