cuthbertbeckett
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Apr 13, 2021 21:52:31 GMT
I'm happy Varric is coming back and I also don't care if they kill him. Important characters and companions should sometimes die - I am not happy that Varric is back because he already a good send-off without dying.
Bringing Varric back and then killing him is just for the sake of drama and shock factor. "OMG Solas or character XYZ have killed Varric. You bastard(s)"
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Post by necrowaif on Apr 13, 2021 21:58:48 GMT
Yeah, I hope they don’t bring him back for the sake of pulling a Kylo Ren.
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Post by Zemgus on Apr 13, 2021 22:05:14 GMT
I'm happy Varric is coming back and I also don't care if they kill him. Important characters and companions should sometimes die - I am not happy that Varric is back because he already a good send-off without dying.
Bringing Varric back and then killing him is just for the sake of drama and shock factor. "OMG Solas or character XYZ have killed Varric. You bastard(s)" True at this point it would probably be a bit predictable and not shocking if they killed him.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 13, 2021 23:30:34 GMT
I'm happy Varric is coming back and I also don't care if they kill him. Important characters and companions should sometimes die - that's one of the problems with Inquisition you never lose after Haven (and even in Haven the only people who die are characters you either don't know or care about). I think the main villain of the next game killing one of your companions at certain point of the game could be a great motivator. Edit: I'm glad they didn't kill Varric in DA2. I almost like him more in DAI than in DA2. His relationship with Cassandra was the best and he was a good friend to my Inquisitor (and I can't wait to hear him narrate the Inquisitors story over at the Keep - been waiting for that to happen for many, many years now!) I much prefer companions possibly dying due to our choices rather than always dying. The latter is just too forced, drama for the sake of drama, and thus feels cheap. Especially when they could have been saved. Now when it is because of what you do or don't do, that makes you a lot more invested. To use Mass Effect, I actually fretted over people in the Suicide Mission while the Ash/Kaidan thing is just annoying (especially since saving both was an option but they cut it). It's the same with factions. Being able to work hard to get both is a lot more investing than having to choose one or the other.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Apr 13, 2021 23:31:16 GMT
I'm happy Varric is coming back and I also don't care if they kill him. Important characters and companions should sometimes die - I am not happy that Varric is back because he already a good send-off without dying.
Bringing Varric back and then killing him is just for the sake of drama and shock factor. "OMG Solas or character XYZ have killed Varric. You bastard(s)" We'd probably be forced to feel sad, instead of being able to choose our emotion too.
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Post by Zemgus on Apr 14, 2021 0:00:18 GMT
I'm happy Varric is coming back and I also don't care if they kill him. Important characters and companions should sometimes die - that's one of the problems with Inquisition you never lose after Haven (and even in Haven the only people who die are characters you either don't know or care about). I think the main villain of the next game killing one of your companions at certain point of the game could be a great motivator. Edit: I'm glad they didn't kill Varric in DA2. I almost like him more in DAI than in DA2. His relationship with Cassandra was the best and he was a good friend to my Inquisitor (and I can't wait to hear him narrate the Inquisitors story over at the Keep - been waiting for that to happen for many, many years now!) I much prefer companions possibly dying due to our choices rather than always dying. The latter is just too forced, drama for the sake of drama, and thus feels cheap. Especially when they could have been saved. Now when it is because of what you do or don't do, that makes you a lot more invested. To use Mass Effect, I actually fretted over people in the Suicide Mission while the Ash/Kaidan thing is just annoying (especially since saving both was an option but they cut it). It's the same with factions. Being able to work hard to get both is a lot more investing than having to choose one or the other. Sometimes it's more realistic that you simply can't save everyone no matter how hard you try. I really love that Virmire choice. I also like the Suicide Mission although in order for anyone to actually die you have to play the game badly. It was more fun the first time around when I lost many of my favorite characters - it made the mission feel that much more dangerous and meaningful. I also disagree with your last point. Obviously people like different things in their games and not everyone gets what they want.
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Post by gervaise21 on Apr 14, 2021 7:29:30 GMT
I much prefer companions possibly dying due to our choices rather than always dying. The latter is just too forced, drama for the sake of drama, and thus feels cheap. Especially when they could have been saved. Now when it is because of what you do or don't do, that makes you a lot more invested. To use Mass Effect, I actually fretted over people in the Suicide Mission while the Ash/Kaidan thing is just annoying (especially since saving both was an option but they cut it). It's the same with factions. Being able to work hard to get both is a lot more investing than having to choose one or the other. I agree with this. I didn't know as I played ME2 that doing all that planet scanning to upgrade the Normandy might actually impact on the survival of the crew but I thought it might be important, based off what happened with DAA, so I diligently went ahead. So when I discovered after I finished that it had been vital to survival of certain people, I felt really satisfied. (I found DAI and upgrading Skyhold supremely disappointing in this respect because I was expecting it to be important and it really wasn't). Also, when making the choice about who should do certain tasks, I gave it serious thought and chose who I thought should logically be the best rather than just because they were encouraging me to choose them. I know someone who let Miranda encourage them into choosing her for one task, because she was their romance, with disastrous consequences for Thane who was the other member of the party. So I thought it was great that the game rewarded you for doing the common sense thing rather than just going with favourites. Sometimes it's more realistic that you simply can't save everyone no matter how hard you try. I really love that Virmire choice. I I agree that the Virmire choices at least made some degree of sense since the two characters were in different locations and time was of the essence, although I still felt it was a little contrived since realistically Shepard should always have chosen to stay and ensure the bomb was set off without problem rather than risk leaving that lone character to do it and possibly be attacked again. That very fact I was allowed to make that choice made me suspect that it was rigged to force me to make that choice. However, I thought DAI Fade choice was really contrived. In the time it took us to argue about it, we could all have just run through the rift and then closed it behind us. So I don't mind choices if they are genuinely necessary for the PC to succeed in their goal. Otherwise I would rather go for the approach where if I work hard and make the right choices throughout the game, I am rewarded later on by enabling the survival of my companions when otherwise I know they would have died.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 14, 2021 9:00:06 GMT
Killing characters is fine, but I don't want anyone returning at all if it's remotely avoidable (which it is, because fiction). I also don't support making it possible to save everyone. There should be meaningful costs/impacts to choices.
BUT! I dislike it when a binary choice is obviously artificial. For example, the choice of helping the mages or the Templers in Inquisition. You can fuck around the Hinterlands indefinitely picking up elfroot and corralling demon goats and bullshit, so any notion of a time constraint preventing you from doing both quests is laughable, and the critical path is so meagre to begin with that cutting a major quest out of it seems like a poor decision to me.
Plus (people are going to disagree with this, but whatever) it makes little to no difference to how the broader story plays out, so it's pointless.
Maybe if the game had *also* forced you to choose between doing the Winter Palace or helping the Grey Wardens, and the forces available to you at the end had affected your options/tactics for the final confrontation, that might have been good. Or maybe if after doing both quests you had to choose who to keep because they would refuse to work together. That feels more like getting to make an actual choice, to me.
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Post by samurailink on Apr 14, 2021 19:22:37 GMT
If they bring back the death David Gaider planned for him in Exalted March DLC where he had some Red Lyrium based heroic sacrifice. I wouldn't mind having Varric back one last time. As much as I'd prefer he wasn't here at all If I recall the cut parts of DA2 bled into Inquisition which was intended to cover more and it also may be carried over into DA4 (presumably Solas). So if Varric must be back so we can tie off everything DA2 built up to, I'll be okay with it. My biggest fear is he will come back in a way that didn't need to be him.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Apr 14, 2021 22:04:00 GMT
Bringing a character back just to kill them seems especially pointless to me, and with how far we have now moved on from DA2, I don't see any point in going back to it. Even DAI is nearly seven years old, and by the time the next game comes out it will have been nearly ten. Bioware cannot rely on the appeal of returning characters. A large chunk of the audience isn't going to know or care who they are.
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cuthbertbeckett
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by cuthbertbeckett on Apr 16, 2021 10:44:25 GMT
So if Varric must be back so we can tie off everything DA2 built up to, I'll be okay with it. My biggest fear is he will come back in a way that didn't need to be him. Exatly i don´t believe that Varric is needed to be in DA 4. He has a nice send off in Trespasser.
My guess that Bioware want someone familiar back because they aren´t trusting in Dorian (or Solas) starpower alone. Also from the writing view of things he is the easiest character to bring back because he isn´t a quantum character. No romance and always alive with one fate as Viscount.
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Post by dadithinkimgay on Jun 16, 2021 3:05:00 GMT
Wanted to post this here, because this author illustrates some good points about Varric's involvement. www.dumpeddrunkanddalish.com/2021/06/love-lies-and-lyrium-speculations-on.htmlI never saw the huge presence of red lyrium in DA4 as a reason for Varric's involvement, but thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense, particularly if red lyrium is going to be one of the focuses of the game. Varric was saddened with guilt in DAI pertaining to what he perceived as poor choices in the past on his part. It doesn't help that his ex-lover literally opened the door for Cory to obtain red lyrium and spread it throughout southern Thedas. Now, as we all know, in Trespasser, Varric has retired to Viscount of Kirkwall, so we thought his character was being retired as well. But I can absolutely see him not only getting involved because, hello, the world is ending, but also because red lyrium is spreading everywhere - and a different, more organic kind at that. I can imagine that this guilt he carried from DAI has continued into DA4. Varric may see all of this as his fault. I mean, The Red Lyrium Idol is the centerpiece of the first trailer, and if it's literally the key to the destruction of the world/Solas ritual/key to everything, that can only add to his guilt and need to "do better." Granted, Varric doesn't have to do s*it. But we see that he is already going to, and this analysis hits a lot of good marks. I hope this is something along the lines of what the writers are actually intending for his story. I would have enjoyed his company regardless of my feelings about his need to be involved, but this author opened up my eyes to a lot of potential and excited me!
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 16, 2021 7:13:38 GMT
Wanted to post this here, because this author illustrates some good points about Varric's involvement. I don't think anyone would deny that Varric would still want to be involved with the Shadow Inquisition. The fact he offers an estate and title in Kirkwall to the Inquisitor even before the end of the Exalted Council points to him wanting to move the focus of efforts from Skyhold to his own home city where it is easier for him to act as a focal point for information gathering. Of course, at the point he makes the offer the Inquisition has not yet been cut down in size but he can see the way things are moving so essentially is saying that even if Ferelden don't want their help any more, he does. The red lyrium could well have had an influence on his decision because they have been actively involving their resources into researching the substance in the hope of finding a well of dealing with it. Once the Inquisitor comes back with the news about what Solas intends to do, naturally Varric would want to assist the efforts against him. There is not much point in being Viscount if the world ends. His involvement behind the scenes at what effectively has probably become the Inquisition's base of operations has been confirmed in both the comic series and Tevinter Nights. That makes sense. What I find harder to justify is Varric suddenly turning up in Tevinter (or Antiva or the Anderfels). If his responsibility has been to co-ordinate the activities of the Inquisition away from the unrest in the north, why would he abandon that responsibility to go into any area with which he is not familiar. So my hope is that when he says "I've got your back", it is because he is that co-ordinator who arranges for people to go where they are needed but is only ever referred to in that way ("Varric sent me"), not physically present in what we are doing because, to he honest, that is not where his strengths lie. Dorian (or Maevaris) would be a far better fit as an advisor in Tevinter, Josephine would be a better one for Antiva and a local Grey Warden (possibly Davrin) would be far better for the Anderfels. Varric does not have any specialist knowledge about red lyrium that he has not acquired from someone else, specifically Bianca or the Inquisition Researchers, so if we need an advisor on red lyrium it would be far better to have one of these people who is better able to process information gained first hand rather than through an intermediary.
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Post by telanadas on Jun 16, 2021 11:39:03 GMT
The sad part is, Varric will have had years in which to compose those words, because I think some part of him always knew that the fight wasn't over, and that because he was there for the discovery of red lyrium in the beginning, he would have an additional part to play in the end, as well.^ YES. I totally agree!!! I loved this article thank you for posting it. Varric is an absolute must for DA4 imo. Absolute MUST. The thing about Varric is that he has seen first-hand so many significant events in the universe that could potentially change everything. He saw the revelations of Alistair's lineage, what Yavana wanted him to do. He was there with Hawke and when they freed Corypheus. And of course he saw first-hand the events of DAI. He is one of the most important primary sources on this entire affair!!! But the most interesting thing about him is that he is also a storyteller. I think you could say his methodology parallels Herodotus, who documented his history as a primary source but in a way that made it interesting to the reader. This specific factor highlights what makes the DA universe so interesting and immersive, the fact that so many 'facts' have been twisted over time where it's hard to tell the exact truth of the matter. Personally I don't think his backstory/personality has really been fleshed out all too well in the games. But he has the potential to be an even more interesting character because he has always tried to be impartial even if he really dislikes the Inquisitor. In DA4 I think it is likely that he will be forced to make the hard decision of taking a side and/or covering up or embellishing the truth. Which would tie in to the themes of the series, which is really about power and who gets to write history. I don't care that he was planned to be killed off in the previous games. He needs to stay and see this through, and at least discover the mysteries of red lyrium and the blight. The effects of red lyrium on him personally makes it all the more interesting to see what he does with the information the shadow Inquisition discovers. His banter with Solas is also a bit foreboding of what is to come, and I think it would be super interesting to see his reaction to the titans and the blight considering he is a topsider and andrastian. The only thing I am against is making him a romanceable character. Please, just no. Give us some new dwarven characters to romance and flesh out his relationship with Bianca instead. Their backstory has the potential to be super interesting and emotional on a whole different level. Also I'd love it if they didn't kill him off for the sake of it. I want him alive to tell more stories. Please bioware... 🥺
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 16, 2021 13:40:13 GMT
Dorian (or Maevaris) would be a far better fit as an advisor in Tevinter, Josephine would be a better one for Antiva and a local Grey Warden (possibly Davrin) would be far better for the Anderfels. As much as I hate to say it, I hope Josephine isn’t involved. Or really Dorian either, at least as an advisor since I know he’ll be in the game. Having them involved in that capacity but not the Inquisitor would just be salt in the wound and constantly beg the question why they’re not doing anything. Especially if either are their LI since they’re being a worthless bum while their significant other is trying to help.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 16, 2021 13:42:28 GMT
As for the blog post, none of those arguments really convince me Varric is needed as a companion yet again. Red Lyrium is only a small part, so him being involved in a side quest for it I could see (such as the ME2 companions in ME3) but not the whole game. Plus that just ruins his character even more, since so much for caring about Kirkwall.
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Post by gervaise21 on Jun 16, 2021 19:42:38 GMT
As much as I hate to say it, I hope Josephine isn’t involved. I don't think she will be because it seemed to me that her story was nicely tied off at the end of DAI/Trespasser, unlike Dorian where it was obvious why they were sending him back to Tevinter, even to the extent of killing off his father so he could become a Magister. However, you could equally say that Varric's story was tied off at the end of Trespasser and yet there he is again in the latest trailer, hinting at his presence next game and actually claiming a greater involvement with the history of the last two games than might actually have been the case, depending on your choices as a player. I agree with you that I see no point in bringing back anyone involved in DAI on screen if they are not going to do the same for the Inquisitor because they have more reason to stay involved than anyone and the epilogue to Trespasser confirmed that they were still directing operations. However, Dorian at least has a valid reason to be their representative in Tevinter and thus our contact there.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 16, 2021 22:59:10 GMT
As much as I hate to say it, I hope Josephine isn’t involved. I don't think she will be because it seemed to me that her story was nicely tied off at the end of DAI/Trespasser, unlike Dorian where it was obvious why they were sending him back to Tevinter, even to the extent of killing off his father so he could become a Magister. However, you could equally say that Varric's story was tied off at the end of Trespasser and yet there he is again in the latest trailer, hinting at his presence next game and actually claiming a greater involvement with the history of the last two games than might actually have been the case, depending on your choices as a player. I agree with you that I see no point in bringing back anyone involved in DAI on screen if they are not going to do the same for the Inquisitor because they have more reason to stay involved than anyone and the epilogue to Trespasser confirmed that they were still directing operations. However, Dorian at least has a valid reason to be their representative in Tevinter and thus our contact there. Well they’re already squandering Antiva apparently, so I could see her being roped into this. Most likely in a way that ruins her character, since BioWare seems obsessed with doing that to as many as possible.
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