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Post by themikefest on Jul 26, 2022 1:49:32 GMT
- It's very understandable why the Virmire Survivor doesn't trust Shepard in 2 and the beginning of 3 If Shepard explained his/her situation better, and the asari, claiming to be a friend to anyone, mentioned Shepard's body was in the hands of Cerberus, A/K might have kept their stupidness in check when the word Cerberus was mentioned. The problem with the beginning of ME3 is the beginning. In the 6 months Shepard was under false arrest, A/K chose not to see Shepard. Had that happened, the dialogue between them might have been different on Mars. The whole thing was crap.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2022 3:59:34 GMT
To preface this, I've never read any of the ME comics or books --so maybe something in there would change my view-- but I don't necessarily see their suspicion of Shepard as stupid. Look at Cerberus in ME3. It sounds goofy, but it's conceivable that Cerberus could've augmented Shepard behaviorally. The potential change in values that might go along with aligning with Cerberus could be a potential sign of this too, but with a possible condition: If Shepard was Renegade in 1, the VS would be less skeptical of Shep working with Cerberus than if they were Paragon, making them harder to recruit in 3. It would be an interesting manifestation of Paragon choices actually working against you (which isn't common in ME) dmc1001 I'm referring to the ending in 3 where Geth-Quarian cohabitation is achieved.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 26, 2022 13:17:53 GMT
dmc1001 I'm referring to the ending in 3 where Geth-Quarian cohabitation is achieved. Oh I see. If I go back to ME1, at the end of the UNC mission where the geth are planning a major offensive, we see that the geth still miss the quarians. Note that in the entire trilogy, the geth did not fight the quarians until the quarians attacked them. Once you convince the quarians that a) they're going to die if they continue the fight and that the geth do not want to continue the fight, then it makes sense. Remember, in ME3, the only reason that the geth joined with the Reapers was because they feared they would be completely destroyed. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." If we're going back to the beginning, it seems as though the quarians started the fight when they started to freak out about the geth gaining sentience. The geth fought back really hard but then stopped bothering anyone for centuries unless they intruded in the territory. You could even make a case that, prior to ME1, the geth had no interest in conflict with organics. They separated themselves but also sent a message to anyone who strayed into the Veil. So, yes, I believe that peace was achievable. The quarians got their planet back and the geth helped them fight the Reapers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2022 1:26:05 GMT
dmc1001 My issue wasn't that peace was achievable; it was the execution. One of my main gripes with ME3 was the lack of politics in any way other than being a barrier to entry for allies in the war. Your choices in the Genophage and Geth-Quarian War arcs ultimately amount to cruelty or naivety: either destroy an entire race, perhaps pointlessly, or let them exist as (potentially dangerous) free entities. Ideally, the resolutions to these questlines would've involved talks with the Council and post-WWII style treaties delineating and putting limits on the territory that will be owned by each race along with other demands and amends, potentially for all the major actors. Having Tali, Legion, Wrex, etc. would affect the success of these negotiations, and in the best case scenario, lead to the races getting a seat on the Council to avoid a post-WWI scenario.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jul 27, 2022 19:25:33 GMT
dmc1001 My issue wasn't that peace was achievable; it was the execution. One of my main gripes with ME3 was the lack of politics in any way other than being a barrier to entry for allies in the war. Your choices in the Genophage and Geth-Quarian War arcs ultimately amount to cruelty or naivety: either destroy an entire race, perhaps pointlessly, or let them exist as (potentially dangerous) free entities. Ideally, the resolutions to these questlines would've involved talks with the Council and post-WWII style treaties delineating and putting limits on the territory that will be owned by each race along with other demands and amends, potentially for all the major actors. Having Tali, Legion, Wrex, etc. would affect the success of these negotiations, and in the best case scenario, lead to the races getting a seat on the Council to avoid a post-WWI scenario.
Should have involved the Council. The problem was that the the salarians and asari wouldn't even discuss the genophage. The quarian banishment was just stupid. Humanity got a "look the other way" at least once (in Revelation book that took place before ME1). Work on SAM got Alec Ryder fired as an N7 but it's not like he was jailed or anything. And then the "rogue VI" that the Alliance allegedly knew nothing about. Had the Council sided with the quarians the geth would have been destroyed. Similarly, if any of the geth had made overtures to the quarians then maybe it could have led to peace and the Council have some sort of recognition of them.
All of that said, there was no way the Council was doing much of anything during the war. We all know Sparatus was the only useful Councilor. I give him the pass because I 100% agree that asking for help defending Palaven would be a requirement to sending the turian fleet to Earth. Palaven would have been destroyed. The Council simply maintained its strong desire to remain deeply stupid. Even the salarians and asari weren't willing to help the turians.
The reality of it all is that treaty talks are boring in video games of this nature. Even if they weren't, opinions on the krogan and geth are so negative that it would have been pointless. Tevos wouldn't even show for talks because someone who went to the talks was upset. They're idiots. I think the only positive thing the Council did was make Shepard a Spectre. Everything else was pure incompetence. So, no, they weren't having any talks.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2022 19:55:58 GMT
The situation I described is my ideal. It would involve a lot of (welcome) changes to ME3's writing. I personally wouldn't find it boring at all, especially since the current scenarios just seem absurd to me. The council being foolhardy is definitely something that would be problematic with Bioware's writing. Maybe they could be convinced of the need to quell the potential threat these factions represent in the future after Shepard takes care of business (they seem to be easier to convince after the fact/when you force their hand), but there's a lot that needed to be changed with ME3 in general. When you say that the Council has negative opinions of the Geth and Krogan, if anything, I think that would motivate them to impose the type of restrictions I mention.
I wasn't criticizing Sparatus wanting reinforcements for Palaven (not sure if you took it that way); that's really just common sense.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2022 8:02:20 GMT
Saving the council is better than not saving the council. Even on renegade runs. Having the same councillors across all three games is better and more consistent than just having random replacements you have no history with in 3. Plus it's a good " I told you so" moment when the reapers finally arrive. On a (somewhat) similar note, I don't understand why so many people who play Renegade choose Udina as councilor. Technically you can headcanon whatever you want within certain bounds, but it seems like Anderson would be the logical choice for both a Paragon and Renegade Shepard based on the attitudes both types of Shepards present in the game: Anderson's integrity would appeal to the prototypical Paragon Shepard, and his no-bs attitude and willingness to get rough and eschew any false pretenses would appeal to the prototypical Renegade Shepard. I'm sure a lot of people choose Udina because they think he'll be a more competent politician, but I have a feeling a lot of people also choose him to depart from what they think is the "standard" path, just for the sake of it.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 4, 2022 11:58:34 GMT
Anderson sucks. Why I choose Udina? Anderson mentions Shepard's visions to the council expecting them to believe that. Anderson has to ask Shepard what to do about the SR1? Really? The guy can't figure out which choice is the better. He has no history with the council and how they work. Udina does. If people chose Anderson over Udina because he locked down the SR1, I would say, I would believe the council would have done that if Udina didn't. I get udina is in it for himself, but he has more, a lot more experience than Anderson when it comes to politics. If you have to choose a platoon leader, who would you choose. Anderson or Udina? The worst part of the choice is Shepard making the choice. Does humanity not get a chance to vote who they want for their councilor? I get it's a video game, but it's a choice I would not have put in the game. I would always have Udina be the councilor.
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Post by winterking on Aug 4, 2022 12:49:51 GMT
Its his homeworld. I would add Ashley/Kaidan, but since they could be dead or sent to Hackett, I didn't include them Liara is required for Thessia. Tali, if alive, is required for Rannoch. Garrus, if alive, is required for Menae I usually take him for the first part of Priority Earth precisely for that reason. Kaidan too, if he's alive.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 4, 2022 14:12:41 GMT
Saving the council is better than not saving the council. Even on renegade runs. Having the same councillors across all three games is better and more consistent than just having random replacements you have no history with in 3. Plus it's a good " I told you so" moment when the reapers finally arrive. On a (somewhat) similar note, I don't understand why so many people who play Renegade choose Udina as councilor. Technically you can headcanon whatever you want within certain bounds, but it seems like Anderson would be the logical choice for both a Paragon and Renegade Shepard based on the attitudes both types of Shepards present in the game: Anderson's integrity would appeal to the prototypical Paragon Shepard, and his no-bs attitude and willingness to get rough and eschew any false pretenses would appeal to the prototypical Renegade Shepard. I'm sure a lot of people choose Udina because they think he'll be a more competent politician, but I have a feeling a lot of people also choose him to depart from what they think is the "standard" path, just for the sake of it. Agreed. Remember, Udina stabbed you in the back when he locked down the Normandy. A Renegade Shepard would most definitely not trust that guy to put the best interests of humanity first. Note: The best interests of humanity also means a safer galaxy overall. Udina was a jerk and even my Paragade Shepard told Udina that nobody stabs me in the back. By the time ME3 rolls around it couldn't be more obvious that Udina was the same incompetent, self-serving idiot that we saw from the start. He did whatever the Council wanted and then was surprised when they wanted something different than he did. They never cared what he thought and ME3 drove that point home. So now he makes probably the stupidest choice every by throwing in with an organization that's been actively sabotaging all efforts to fight the Reapers. Anderson, whatever anyone thinks of him, was perfectly willing to stand up to the Council at every step of the way.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 4, 2022 14:19:03 GMT
Anderson sucks. Why I choose Udina? Anderson mentions Shepard's visions to the council expecting them to believe that. Anderson has to ask Shepard what to do about the SR1? Really? The guy can't figure out which choice is the better. He has no history with the council and how they work. Udina does. If people chose Anderson over Udina because he locked down the SR1, I would say, I would believe the council would have done that if Udina didn't. I get udina is in it for himself, but he has more, a lot more experience than Anderson when it comes to politics. If you have to choose a platoon leader, who would you choose. Anderson or Udina? The worst part of the choice is Shepard making the choice. Does humanity not get a chance to vote who they want for their councilor? I get it's a video game, but it's a choice I would not have put in the game. I would always have Udina be the councilor. Udina stabs Shepard in the back. No way in hell I let that pass. All he ever did was whatever the Council wanted. He was a terrible ambassador and got even worse as we moved through the series. Tbh, I don't know what Shepard didn't just shoot him in the head for going against the best wishes of the galaxy. Especially prior to him becoming a Councilor there's a lot a Spectre could get away with. "Nobody stabs me in the back. Nobody." I can't even imagine how a Renegade Shepard could let that go. This is the Shepard who punched a reporter in the face for asking questions they didn't like. What Udina did in ME1 alone was much, much worse. It's literally illogical for Shepard to think that person was the best humanity had to offer.
I do agree that it made no sense to have Shepard pick the Councilor. That wasn't actually was they asked Shepard to do. They intended to compile a list of candidates but say Shepard's opinion was have weight. I would personally not have chosen either of them. Bring back Goyle.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 4, 2022 14:37:08 GMT
Udina is the best choice at that time. If there was another choice.....but there wasn't. Anderson should not have been considered. If I were to choose someone, it would be The Honorable Mr. Rupert Gardner, the greatest chef in the universe. With him as the human councilor, he could have whatever he wants since he cooks great food that the other councilors enjoy. He would have them wrapped around his fingers. Jacob would be the ideal choice.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 4, 2022 14:46:17 GMT
Udina is the best choice at that time. If there was another choice.....but there wasn't. Anderson should not have been considered. If I were to choose someone, it would be The Honorable Mr. Rupert Gardner, the greatest chef in the universe. With him as the human councilor, he could have whatever he wants since he cooks great food that the other councilors enjoy. He would have them wrapped around his fingers. Jacob would be the ideal choice. Unfortunately, Gardner wasn't around. He was too busy trying to find the right spices for his cooking.
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Post by winterking on Aug 4, 2022 15:41:52 GMT
I cannot play Renegade in ME3, in first 2 games being renegade is basically being a ruthless badass but in ME3 you basically turn into a murderous maniac Personally, I feel that the Renegade options in ME3 are far more justifiable than ones in the previous games and more in line with the "I did what I had to do" mentality.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2022 20:54:47 GMT
I tend to go more Paragon myself, but for some of the larger decisions in 1 and 2 I can see the logic behind the Renegade choices, even if I don't agree with them. It's usually the less consequential choices where Renegade is just pointless assholery.
Also re: my comments on the VS distrusting Shepard,
In my latest playthrough, I'm making choices I usually don't, so I romanced Ashley. I met her on Horizon in 2 and was curt with her (I intend on romancing Tali later on), yet she still sent me a warm letter afterwards. I can see why her continued distrust in 3 would be odd if I continued her romance given her letter. I'll have to see if the dialogue is any different in 3 -- as in look it up, since I'm not sticking with it
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Post by Primitive God on Aug 4, 2022 23:52:28 GMT
I cannot play Renegade in ME3, in first 2 games being renegade is basically being a ruthless badass but in ME3 you basically turn into a murderous maniac Personally, I feel that the Renegade options in ME3 are far more justifiable than ones in the previous games and more in line with the "I did what I had to do" mentality. This. Renegade in 3 is a lot more balanced. Sure, some of the actions are extreme but is killing Mordin any worse than gunning down Chorban in me1 or ratting out mouse or killing Samara? Those are far worse than anything renegade Shepard can do in 3.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 5, 2022 0:04:05 GMT
ME3 needed Shepard to be more renegade than what the game offered. I would add more, a lot more renegade interrupts as well.
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 5, 2022 1:24:47 GMT
ME3 needed Shepard to be more renegade than what the game offered. I would add more, a lot more renegade interrupts as well. I've actually come around to the idea of Shepard having needed more agency in the game, more ability to tell everyone how utterly stupid they are. It was actually about MEA but once the idea is in my head I can see all the places it would make sense.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2022 7:19:29 GMT
To preface this, I've never read any of the ME comics or books, so maybe something in there would change my view; but I don't necessarily see their suspicion of Shepard as stupid. Look at Cerberus in ME3. It sounds goofy, but it's conceivable that Cerberus could've augmented Shepard behaviorally. The potential change in values that might go along with aligning with Cerberus could be a potential sign of this too, but with a possible condition: If Shepard was Renegade in 1, the VS would be less skeptical of Shep working with Cerberus than if they were Paragon, making them harder to recruit in 3. It would be an interesting manifestation of Paragon choices actually working against you (which isn't common in ME) dmc1001 I'm referring to the ending in 3 where Geth-Quarian cohabitation is achieved. Another point to add here: In regard to the Paragon/Renegade factor being weighed, destroying the Collector base should be an absolute lock-in for the VS's loyalty (it's exempt from this system). It shows that Shepard is willing/able to disobey TIM and is no longer in his graces. Thus, they wouldn't ever really be a problem for a Shepard in 3 who didn't save the Collector base. Only a Para(gade) who did or a Renegade who was a dick to them would ever have to convince them to stand down.
Late edit here after playing through ME3: If you don't have Thane or Kirrahe, Udina will manufacture footage that makes it appear as if Shep killed the Salarian councilor.
There's always the glaring issue that you literally fight troops on Mars with the VS as well, but you could argue Shepard might have had a change of heart afterward, or TIM activated the control chip that Miranda wanted to put in after Mars. It would be more likely to be perceived that way with the footage. The footage would more negatively affect the aforementioned Paragade who saved the Base and the full-on Renegade, since it would be in line with either modification in the case of the Paragade or a change in heart in the case of the Renegade.
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Post by winterking on Aug 5, 2022 10:29:26 GMT
Physical supremecy Trump's biotics every time. I always side with James in citadel. My solider shep is proof of that. Not one biotic has defeated my shepard in combat. I tend to choose different sides depending on which class I can play. I don't think any soldier defeated my biotic Shepard, unless we're counting those one shot kill from snipers. But in ME1, enemy biotics could put me in the ground repeatedly and then kill me at will.
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Post by winterking on Aug 5, 2022 10:39:33 GMT
I guess an unpopular opinions here:
While I like some characters more than others, I don't dislike any of the squadmates. Not even Jacob.
The lackluster mission Priority: Earth bothers me more than the endings themselves.
Cerberus should've stayed as Alliance black ops group.
An interrupt should've been added after the Catalyst explains the destroy option to start moving to the tube without listening to the other two.
The more I play the trilogy, the more appreciate ME1 and ME2 is becoming the worst of the trilogy.
Kai Leng's problem are related to cutscene incompetence. Not the character itself.
A non loyal Miranda should've stayed with Cerberus and become the foil for Shepard instead of Kai Leng.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Aug 5, 2022 16:50:13 GMT
General Shepard from MW2 is the best Shepard.
Come at me bro! 😎
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 5, 2022 18:57:41 GMT
Cerberus should've stayed as Alliance black ops group. Agreed. I liked the idea of that being the case. ME2 was at odds with ME1 in that area but ME3 has an off-hand comment about Cerberus having once been a black ops group. It was one of the door guards when you have to go through the scanner. An interrupt should've been added after the Catalyst explains the destroy option to start moving to the tube without listening to the other two. Would this be unpopular? I feel like as the most popular option it would be well-received. Then I wouldn't need the mod that eradicates all traces of the Star Brat. The more I play the trilogy, the more appreciate ME1 and ME2 is becoming the worst of the trilogy. I actually like the characters we got out of ME2 so it's worth it. In particular, Miranda and Thane were squadmates I would have liked to carry over. Some have suggested that ME2 would have served better as an initial entry to the series where we take on the Collectors and then learn of the bigger threat of the Reapers.
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Post by themikefest on Aug 6, 2022 2:28:50 GMT
The lackluster mission Priority: Earth bothers me more than the endings themselves. Here's a thread about what you would do for Priority Earth. It has been suggested by others to have a few side missions before making the final push to the beam. Such as rescuing a platoon of soldiers trapped behind enemy lines. Destroying a reaper processor, and so on. Here's a thread listing the likes and dislikes about the mission. There should have been more, a lot more interrupts in the game. Even have a few of them with harsh language and violence I actually like the characters we got out of ME2 so it's worth it. In particular, Miranda and Thane were squadmates I would have liked to carry over. Some have suggested that ME2 would have served better as an initial entry to the series where we take on the Collectors and then learn of the bigger threat of the Reapers. I'm one of those that believe ME2 would be better as ME1. Here's what I posted about that.
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dmc1001
N7
Biotic Booty
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: ferroboy
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by dmc1001 on Aug 6, 2022 5:18:59 GMT
I'm one of those that believe ME2 would be better as ME1. Here's what I posted about that. Yes, you're the first person I heard mention it.
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