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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 21:32:51 GMT
Raising a Remnant fleet. Shooting a Black Widow Sniper Rifle one handed and taking out a person who was using Vetra's sister as a human shield. Shooting the other Asari in the back and securing the data. Telling off multiple thugs in the psychological attempt, and tip toeing on the line between getting shot in the face and just...well...living to see another day. Dropping Aroam off a bridge (not saying this is especially bad ass but it demonstrated Robert Ryder's 'I am the Law' attitude he adopted towards the end of the game). Led a mutiny against the Andromeda Iniative Cent Com and launched a one team assault on the Remnant City Ship. And...well I think that is it. Shooting the stowaway's girlfriend? I wouldn't call that bada**. I call that returning the favor for trying to kill me. Eye for eye is a badass attitude vs turning the other cheek and trying to redeem and forgive and "understand" etc. There is no Dark vs Light Path in the game, because if I remember it correctly everyone and their dog was dead-set against the black & white quest resolutions for the last decade or so, and here we go! All gray. You have choices to shoot first and to hells with it all. Ryder can act cold-blooded (wait for the sniper to take a shot at Sloane) and hotheaded (shoot Akksul) and just don't give a f**k about anyone (take AI for himself). Emotional-casual + "if you are not with me, you die" Ryder worked well for me as a male lead. He was unusual, and far more dangerous than the Inquisitor who indeed was an upstanding citizen no matter what you've tried. And, yes, I also liked Renegade Shepard in ME2 and ME3 (not that I can be accused of being a young female). ME1 was imo a prime example of why so many players were asking to stop going white vs black, helping little old ladies across the street or kicking puppies. Renegade Shepard was a classic example of evil-stupid; s/he was much better in the second and third one, growing pragmatic and cold. As for any sort of comments on the lack of raw masculinity in the character, to please women (????) well, that's cannot be true by definition. These protagonists are designed as either a male or a female alter ego, so you simply cannot put down a male Ryder without putting down the female one, except in the gender-specific romance, and if any Ryder was treated in romance like a dolt, it was a female Ryder with Jaal turning her into a complete embarrassment to play. Male one delivered just fine in his romances. Is Ryder young? Yes. Is s/he a nice person? S/he can be, but does not have to. Will anyone like him/her? No. But all of these except for the youthfulness is true of Shepard, and youthfulness was a part of many a BioWARE lead, including their very first one, the Bhaalspawn that started out younger than Ryder (who did not just have to see his or her mentor die, s/he actually did not have a control and could do nothing but to ignominiously run away crying when that happened) and the Last Monk (who admittedly was made of tougher stuff and actually fought when his/her happy littl' village was burned down). Ryder was what s/he was, but s/he was not some sort of an exception, but very much like other protagonists in BioWARE games.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 10, 2017 22:21:42 GMT
Eye for eye is a badass attitude vs turning the other cheek and trying to redeem and forgive and "understand" etc. You can call it bada**, but I don't. She's no different than her goons she sent after me that I killed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 22:31:03 GMT
Eye for eye is a badass attitude vs turning the other cheek and trying to redeem and forgive and "understand" etc. You can call it bada**, but I don't. She's no different than her goons she sent after me that I killed. Then the onus of defying badassness is on you as @alan9 pointed out. The difference between her and the goons are that you shoot goons in self defence. The woman you shoot when she is defenceless, and against the express wishes of someone who is fairily close to your character.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 10, 2017 22:38:06 GMT
against the express wishes of someone who is fairily close to your character. Fairly close to my character? Ha. My Ryder doesn't give a crap about her.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 10, 2017 22:59:35 GMT
Does that make murdering her less badass, or more badass?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2017 23:02:52 GMT
against the express wishes of someone who is fairily close to your character. Fairly close to my character? Ha. My Ryder doesn't give a crap about her. Good, good. So let’s examine your Ryder’s motivation. Correct me if I am wrong. Ryder is jettisoned to a planet by a stoveaway who he does not give shit about. Ryder fights through a horde of mercenaries on the edge of volcano. That bitch, that thorn in his side that started the whole shit is now hanging of the ledge, while the other annoying bitch wants to throw away the only prize that there is to gain there at all, a stupid piece of tech and save the other bitch. Your Ryder rises his rifle and shoots. About the only thing he regrets is that he could not finish both bitches off with one bullet. He takes the tech. He turns around and leaves letting the bitch hop after him screaming how he shouldn’t have... Well, where is the heroic mindset that the Ryder stands accused of? Is badassness only reserved for the bad guys that shoot everyone that looked at them askance? What if the Ryder was given a check vs his Biotic Charge Tree to make a gigantic leap and end up standing precariously on the ledge holding both women and the device in his mighty arms? What if he had a monologue about how a real man can’t let stupid women die, no matter how annoying and treacherously evil they are, because he is a mucho man and can take it? Is that sort of idiotic and superhuman superstpic heroism badass?
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Post by colfoley on Nov 10, 2017 23:05:49 GMT
Fairly close to my character? Ha. My Ryder doesn't give a crap about her. Good, good. So let’s examine your Ryder’s motivation. Correct me if I am wrong. Ryder is jettisoned to a planet by a stoveaway who he does not give shit about. Ryder fights through a horde of mercenaries on the edge of volcano. That bitch, that thorn in his side that started the whole shit is now hanging of the ledge, while the other annoying bitch wants to throw away the only prize that there is to gain there at all, a stupid piece of tech and save the other bitch. Your Ryder rises his rifle and shoots. About the only thing he regrets is that he could not finish both bitches off with one bullet. He takes the tech. He turns around and leaves letting the bitch hop after him screaming how he shouldn’t have... Well, where is the heroic mindset that the Ryder stands accused of? Is badassness only reserved for the bad guys that shoot everyone that looked at them askance? What if the Ryder was given a check vs his Biotic Charge Tree to make a gigantic leap and end up standing precariously on the ledge holding both women and the device in his mighty arms? What if he had a monologue about how a real man can’t let stupid women die, no matter how annoying and treacherously evil they are, because he is a mucho man and can take it? Is that sort of idiotic and superhuman superstpic heroism badass? judging the commentary around here I'd say yes.
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Post by stealthfox94 on Nov 11, 2017 3:28:27 GMT
The lack of maturity is what disappointed me the most. To me, it seemed as if Ryder didn't take anything seriously. I think BioWare needs to take a long look at the overall writing in this game. Ehh, stop picking the casual lines.
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Post by goishen on Nov 11, 2017 13:04:37 GMT
In fact, I don't even think I got to the mission that you're talking about.
It sounds to me like whomever got there first decided on who wins. Not some moral choice. It sounds to like it's fairly cut and dried, and hackneyed at that. This is all besides the fact that we had two dialogue options for most of the game, and I'd say that about half of them relayed the same point, if not the exact same phrase of dialogue.
*shrug*
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Post by Exile Isan on Nov 11, 2017 14:48:11 GMT
It is a moral choice. Ryder chooses whether to shot Kalinda and keep the data storage device or save Kalinda and loose the device.
As for all dialogue options being three flavors of the same thing, ME1 has had that criticism leveled at it numerous times.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 11, 2017 16:55:55 GMT
Hmmm... Shooting Peebee's former-girlfriend/stalker/schoolyard-rival was rather therapeutic. The only response I had at that point was: lol no. That quest (and somewhat Peebee in general) pushed a completely different set of buttons than the one I suspect they were aiming for. (Well, for me at least) The option to shoot Peebee in the face after the stunt she pulled with the pod may have been a little bit over the top and "chaotic-stupid", but I would have appreciated it for the funsies if nothing else. I'm more curious about the fact that being kicked off the crew wasn't an option, considering that she's not critical to the plot. The extent of the effort to writing that in would basically just be an alternate version of the escape pod corridor, or even just having the door to it be locked from that point since there's no reason to go in there.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 11, 2017 20:31:03 GMT
It's a good question. I suppose there would be a slight VA cost for alternate dialogue lines during plot exposition -- someone else would have to introduce H-047c, for instance. But that's fairly trivial from what I can recall of the plot-specific dialogues.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 11, 2017 20:34:08 GMT
At least they gave you a choice on whether or not you would be displeased with her actions.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 11, 2017 20:36:35 GMT
At least they gave you a choice on whether or not you would be displeased with her actions. Well that's always been a given with party dialogue. Even the Inquisitor, who people accuse of being too kind, can drop subtle threats to Sera if kicking her out of the Inquisition.
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Post by HYR on Nov 12, 2017 16:59:12 GMT
"Badass" is not a worthwhile measuring-stick for the quality of the main character. Hawke is not badass to nearly the degree that Shepard is but I generally liked them better as characters.
Ryder was definitely one of the weaker points of the game for me, and I actually overall liked the game. I did not feel like I had much control over their persona or story, which I could maybe have gotten over if the rest of their character was interesting... but it wasn't.
I just find it silly to have this character whose autodialogue is very bland/generic so as to not step on the players' toes for role-playing, and then not offer the player quality role-playing tools. In fairness, Ryder does have his/her moments, but it's nothing solid/consistent enough to really define their character.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 17:08:50 GMT
Hmmm... Shooting Peebee's former-girlfriend/stalker/schoolyard-rival was rather therapeutic. The only response I had at that point was: lol no. That quest (and somewhat Peebee in general) pushed a completely different set of buttons than the one I suspect they were aiming for. (Well, for me at least) The option to shoot Peebee in the face after the stunt she pulled with the pod may have been a little bit over the top and "chaotic-stupid", but I would have appreciated it for the funsies if nothing else. I'm more curious about the fact that being kicked off the crew wasn't an option, considering that she's not critical to the plot. The extent of the effort to writing that in would basically just be an alternate version of the escape pod corridor, or even just having the door to it be locked from that point since there's no reason to go in there. Neither was pretty much any of the Trilogy characters. That I could not kick off my ship. Instead you had to jump the hoops to kill them off in the end mission or did not have a choice whatsoever. They chose to do "stash and forget". Again. I don't think they did a single game since DAO where you could just dump every companion if you wanted. If that what it takes to have companions, I am okay with a certain displeasure it creates.
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Post by KaiserShep on Nov 12, 2017 17:56:10 GMT
I'm more curious about the fact that being kicked off the crew wasn't an option, considering that she's not critical to the plot. The extent of the effort to writing that in would basically just be an alternate version of the escape pod corridor, or even just having the door to it be locked from that point since there's no reason to go in there. Neither was pretty much any of the Trilogy characters. That I could not kick off my ship. Instead you had to jump the hoops to kill them off in the end mission or did not have a choice whatsoever. They chose to do "stash and forget". Again. I don't think they did a single game since DAO where you could just dump every companion if you wanted. If that what it takes to have companions, I am okay with a certain displeasure it creates. Not every companion, but the Dragon Age games always allowed us to be rid of at least one at some point, and lose more depending on approval. In 2, I could eventually dump Anders once I've had enough of him, and in Inquisition, I could expel Sera from Skyhold. It's really just Mass Effect that was always restricted from removing people from the group, though 1 allowed us to skip recruitment of Garrus and Wrex. I still think Jack should have been optional at the point of her recruitment. It would have made that final scene in her mission much more amusing.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 12, 2017 18:29:44 GMT
Ryder is nowhere near as popular as Shepard was after ME1. After ME1 and leading up to ME2, Shepard hand made his/her footprint in the realm of popular videogame protagonist, and this was all before ME2.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 1:16:22 GMT
Neither was pretty much any of the Trilogy characters. That I could not kick off my ship. Instead you had to jump the hoops to kill them off in the end mission or did not have a choice whatsoever. They chose to do "stash and forget". Again. I don't think they did a single game since DAO where you could just dump every companion if you wanted. If that what it takes to have companions, I am okay with a certain displeasure it creates. Not every companion, but the Dragon Age games always allowed us to be rid of at least one at some point, and lose more depending on approval. In 2, I could eventually dump Anders once I've had enough of him, and in Inquisition, I could expel Sera from Skyhold. It's really just Mass Effect that was always restricted from removing people from the group, though 1 allowed us to skip recruitment of Garrus and Wrex. I still think Jack should have been optional at the point of her recruitment. It would have made that final scene in her mission much more amusing. Like I said, every companion, plus DA has some more than annoying forced returns that you cannot dodge, no matter what.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 13, 2017 17:14:16 GMT
The option to shoot Peebee in the face after the stunt she pulled with the pod may have been a little bit over the top and "chaotic-stupid", but I would have appreciated it for the funsies if nothing else. I would be ok with that. With the pod thing, I would leave her on the planet. My Shepard would have thrown the thing in the lava. I would have my Ryder turn her over to Nexus security to explain why she used Initiative property for her personal use while endangering the lives of the pathfinder, the other squadmate and the crew. If they ask my Ryder what punishment would be good for her, he/she would suggest sending to H-047c to mine Helium 3 or put in a pod to be awaken sometime in the future I'm more curious about the fact that being kicked off the crew wasn't an option, considering that she's not critical to the plot. The extent of the effort to writing that in would basically just be an alternate version of the escape pod corridor, or even just having the door to it be locked from that point since there's no reason to go in there. I'm curious why she wasn't an option not to be recruited. At least they gave you a choice on whether or not you would be displeased with her actions. What choice? Saying mad is the smallest word I am? Neither was pretty much any of the Trilogy characters. That I could not kick off my ship. I agree. I would have liked the option to throw a few off the ship. I still think Jack should have been optional at the point of her recruitment. It would have made that final scene in her mission much more amusing. I would be ok if an option not to recruit her was available. When she says, "you sound like a ******", I would have my Shepard say,"Ok. I see I'm wasting my time. Lets head back to the Normandy".
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Post by colfoley on Nov 14, 2017 1:57:21 GMT
The option to shoot Peebee in the face after the stunt she pulled with the pod may have been a little bit over the top and "chaotic-stupid", but I would have appreciated it for the funsies if nothing else. I would be ok with that. With the pod thing, I would leave her on the planet. My Shepard would have thrown the thing in the lava. I would have my Ryder turn her over to Nexus security to explain why she used Initiative property for her personal use while endangering the lives of the pathfinder, the other squadmate and the crew. If they ask my Ryder what punishment would be good for her, he/she would suggest sending to H-047c to mine Helium 3 or put in a pod to be awaken sometime in the future I'm more curious about the fact that being kicked off the crew wasn't an option, considering that she's not critical to the plot. The extent of the effort to writing that in would basically just be an alternate version of the escape pod corridor, or even just having the door to it be locked from that point since there's no reason to go in there. I'm curious why she wasn't an option not to be recruited. At least they gave you a choice on whether or not you would be displeased with her actions. What choice? Saying mad is the smallest word I am? Neither was pretty much any of the Trilogy characters. That I could not kick off my ship. I agree. I would have liked the option to throw a few off the ship. I still think Jack should have been optional at the point of her recruitment. It would have made that final scene in her mission much more amusing. I would be ok if an option not to recruit her was available. When she says, "you sound like a ******", I would have my Shepard say,"Ok. I see I'm wasting my time. Lets head back to the Normandy". That and making her pay for the replacement escape pod. I just do not think BioWare wastes resources on letting you kick people off their ship when I do not think most people avail themselves of the opprotunity. I know I don't. I didn't kick Blackwall out of the Inquisition. I wouldn't have kicked off Peebee or 'turned Liam over to the authorities' as I know you would have.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 2:17:41 GMT
That and making her pay for the replacement escape pod. I just do not think BioWare wastes resources on letting you kick people off their ship when I do not think most people avail themselves of the opprotunity. I know I don't. I didn't kick Blackwall out of the Inquisition. I wouldn't have kicked off Peebee or 'turned Liam over to the authorities' as I know you would have. I do not recruit and kick characters out still when allowed, 'cause old habits die hard. y 11 yo kicked out Leliana when she got on her nerves... It's not a bad option. Paying for replacement pod, while a funny option, I dunno, I thought the resources were tight, so paying... how? I think she already provides Ryder with all her discoveries, and I don't think he actually pays for her time? I'd have prefered the option of simply leaving her to deal with Kalinda, and a bypass that gives Ryder a way to return to Tempest, leaving PeeBee's fate uncertain. That way she could have been available for the sequel, heck she could have even showed up for the final battle on her own initiative, but Ryder had his say in "I am tired of this sh*t." Same iwth pretty much everyone. But, yes, that anticipation of sequels, and continuing with the same characters and crew are hard on making quests related to companions to end with comapnion's dismissal or death.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 14, 2017 2:41:29 GMT
That and making her pay for the replacement escape pod. I just do not think BioWare wastes resources on letting you kick people off their ship when I do not think most people avail themselves of the opprotunity. I know I don't. I didn't kick Blackwall out of the Inquisition. I wouldn't have kicked off Peebee or 'turned Liam over to the authorities' as I know you would have. If Bioware doesn't waste resources to kick characters off the ship, though it would be nice if the option was available, then put in an option to be recruited or not. The player had that option in the trilogy. Why not in this game? Why did you bring up Ranier? He doesn't have to be recruited. To bad the same can't be said about the asari? I've left him in jail a couple of times, but most of the time I don't recruit him.
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Post by colfoley on Nov 14, 2017 2:45:18 GMT
That and making her pay for the replacement escape pod. I just do not think BioWare wastes resources on letting you kick people off their ship when I do not think most people avail themselves of the opprotunity. I know I don't. I didn't kick Blackwall out of the Inquisition. I wouldn't have kicked off Peebee or 'turned Liam over to the authorities' as I know you would have. If Bioware doesn't waste resources to kick characters off the ship, though it would be nice if the option was available, then put in an option to be recruited or not. The player had that option in the trilogy. Why not in this game? Why did you bring up Ranier? He doesn't have to be recruited. To bad the same can't be said about the asari? I've left him in jail a couple of times, but most of the time I don't recruit him. I mentioned him as an example of me not tending to intentionally cut off content like that, especially on my first few PTs. I alwas go out of my way to recruit all the companions and then keep them all. I think most of the fanbase shares that personal taste, and BioWare probably sees numbers supporting that position hence why they don't use resources on an option that most players wouldn't take. I prefer to deal with my companions as I can without kicking them out, and Andromeda did a great job with that.
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Post by thesupremedarkone on Nov 14, 2017 2:51:01 GMT
The lack of maturity is what disappointed me the most. To me, it seemed as if Ryder didn't take anything seriously. I think BioWare needs to take a long look at the overall writing in this game. Ehh, stop picking the casual lines. You do realize Ryder auto quips a lot of times even if you choose professional/logical?
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